Seal Conditioners-Mobil 1

[Gene K]

My bad it's plant based, but that's not the one at Walmart sells.. recycled oils I believe is safety clean.. and a couple of other ones..

Maxlife synthetic high mileage is predominantly Group II base stock? The Havoline “Synthetic Technology” maybe but the one that’s labeled full synthetic?

Never mentioned synthetic. I was talking about the Red Bottle.

 

[OVERKILL]

How? Marketing, or lack thereof.

Mobil 1 has a huge marketing bill, they sponsor race teams, have manufacturer partnerships, etc.

Supertech is just put on Wal-Mart's shelves as a competitor to the big boys.

There's nothing "less than" about the oil in the bottle.

I mean, that's fundamentally untrue. An oil with higher Noack and using cheaper bases is "less" than an oil that's lower Noack and blended using PAO in terms of quality of materials used. Now, the question is, if both are appropriate for your application, are you liable to see a difference? The answer of course is no.

That's why approvals form the foundation for the minimum required level of performance. More difficult to obtain approvals push the bar higher. Engines vary in how hard they are on oil as well.

The plain-Jane Castrol Syntec 5w-30 was wholly unable to meet the extended drain performance requirements set by VW on this side of the pond, but that didn't stop dealers from using it because it was cheaper and easier to obtain than the approved stuff. We all know how that panned out.

Some people deer hunt with an SKS that shoots minute of barn door. Some people listen to music, and thoroughly enjoy it, through some very inexpensive equipment. In both instances, are there better products available? Absolutely. But if just getting the job done is where the bar is set, then that's perfectly acceptable. That doesn't mean that we disregard the fact that there are qualifiable and quantifiable ways to demonstrate that better products exist.

 

[Scott S]

Never mentioned synthetic. I was talking about the Red Bottle.

I knew what you were talking about, I was wondering if you remember the green bottle?

 

[kschachn]

And I was looking at the silver bottle one which is “Maxlife Technology”. What a world we live in.

 

[OVERKILL]

I've never heard any evidence it's anything but a Group III just like the others you mentioned. Some people speculate that they might be able to meet D1G2 with a high GII+/GIII Blend because Shell did it but other than the fact that it cost a few bucks less than a name brand synthetic in a 5 qt container they have no evidence. Honestly it's usually not the cheapest synthetic at Walmart when you talk about sales prices and rebates on name brands.

It's not speculation that Dexos can be met with a blend of Group II+ and Group III, and it wasn't Shell, it was Mobil, in the material they present for their EHC products:

 

[OVERKILL]

My bad it's plant based, but that's not the one at Walmart sells.. recycled oils I believe is safety clean.. and a couple of other ones..

There are actually a number of re-refined base oils sold on the market and apparently, from experts I've spoken to, they are actually very good (and cost effective).

 

[Scott S]

I mean, that's fundamentally untrue. An oil with higher Noack and using cheaper bases is "less" than an oil that's lower Noack and blended using PAO in terms of quality of materials used. Now, the question is, if both are appropriate for your application, are you liable to see a difference? The answer of course is no.

That's why approvals form the foundation for the minimum required level of performance. More difficult to obtain approvals push the bar higher. Engines vary in how hard they are on oil as well.

The plain-Jane Castrol Syntec 5w-30 was wholly unable to meet the extended drain performance requirements set by VW on this side of the pond, but that didn't stop dealers from using it because it was cheaper and easier to obtain than the approved stuff. We all know how that panned out.

Some people deer hunt with an SKS that shoots minute of barn door. Some people listen to music, and thoroughly enjoy it, through some very inexpensive equipment. In both instances, are there better products available? Absolutely. But if just getting the job done is where the bar is set, then that's perfectly acceptable. That doesn't mean that we disregard the fact that there are qualifiable and quantifiable ways to demonstrate that better products exist.

Very good way to put it.. so basically, you have the cheaper synthetics, like supertech, Kirkland. Getting the job done. But not as well as say Mobil 1 or Pennzoil Quaker State. Am I right or no?

 

[OVERKILL]

Over 10 years ago Valvoline had oil called next Gen, they tried for a while it was 50% recycled oil.. do you remember that? LOL it ended up being a flop...

Yes, their mistake was marketing it. Just doing it and not pointing it out would probably have been a bigger success, and heck, they may actually be doing that now.

 

[Scott S]

Yes, their mistake was marketing it. Just doing it and not pointing it out would probably have been a bigger success, and heck, they may actually be doing that now.

Yes so I heard.. I used to work for Valvoline long time ago, till I became disabled and had to retire, I was an SCM for multiple stores for over 10 years..

 

[Gene K]

Over 10 years ago Valvoline had oil called next Gen, they tried for a while it was 50% recycled oil.. do you remember that? LOL it ended up being a flop...

Recycled usually refers to a process where you filter used oil and then add additives

Rerefined is where you start with spent lube instead of that yellow sulphur laden stuff as the feedstock at the refinery. If the molecules are already more uniform it makes a better feedstock.

Unfortunately it's hard for people to understand the difference.

 

[OVERKILL]

Very good way to put it.. so basically, you have the cheaper synthetics, like supertech, Kirkland. Getting the job done. But not as well as say Mobil 1 or Pennzoil Quaker State. Am I right or no?

Yes, and Mobil has produced slides and stuff that shows this in the past. I don't want to turn this into a Mobil marketing gush-fest, but there are all kinds of standardized tests performed on oils and doing better in those tests is something that Shell and Mobil have both published proof of. But, as I said, that may not amount to a hill of beans in your application.

TEOST for example:

Or piston cleanliness (yes, they intentionally bumped the brightness to make the results even more dramatic):

 

[loneryder]

With all the "made no difference" claims, seemingly to me the big majority of HM users, I've concluded the effect on seals is very, very minimal. Do you really think they have that drastic an effect?

I've always switched to HM about the 75k or so point because I don't want a leak. I figure it's good for the seals at that age. I really don't know though. I think we need some folks to remove seals exposed to HM oil for a long time and spec them to know.

My 01 Ford 150 leaked at the front and rear main seals. I started using Mobil 1 5-30 HM and it stopped. Have used it ever since and no leaks. Lately switched to Supertech HM. 165k miles, 20 yrs old.

 

[Gene K]

It's not speculation that Dexos can be met with a blend of Group II+ and Group III, and it wasn't Shell, it was Mobil, in the material they present for their EHC products:
View attachment 93824

Pennzoil Gold Blend 5W-30 D1G2 was not a Mobil product. It was developed before Mobil marketing materials were released.

...and yes it's pure speculation that Warren is doing so and calling it Synthetic.

 

[OVERKILL]

Pennzoil Gold Blend 5W-30 D1G2 was not a Mobil product. It was developed before Mobil marketing materials were released.

You stated:

Some people speculate that they might be able to meet D1G2 with a high GII+/GIII Blend

It's clear that it isn't speculation that this is possible, Mobil has it printed out in the sheet I provided. That's not to say that's what Warren is doing in this case, but the fact that it is doable isn't speculation.

Also, that's an interestingly absolute statement that Pennzoil Gold Blend 5w-30 was developed before Mobil EHC 50 marketing materials were released. D1G2 was released in August of 2017, the brochure I have here from Mobil on their EHC products, including Dexos claims, was from February of 2017, before D1G2 was out. A more recent incarnation of that sheet appeared in 2019.

Shell also handles (because they use) Mobil's EHC bases, which are likely what was used in the Gold Blend product you are referencing.
Shell Cargo Handling Sheet for Mobil EHC 50

...and yes it's pure speculation that Warren is doing so and calling it Synthetic.

There may be speculation that Warren is doing this, sure, and it would be foolish not to question the validity of those claims, but in terms of formulation, it's a completely doable task.

 

[Gene K]

You stated:

It's clear that it isn't speculation that this is possible, Mobil has it printed out in the sheet I provided. That's not to say that's what Warren is doing in this case, but the fact that it is doable isn't speculation.

Also, that's an interestingly absolute statement that Pennzoil Gold Blend 5w-30 was developed before Mobil EHC 50 marketing materials were released. D1G2 was released in August of 2017, the brochure I have here from Mobil on their EHC products, including Dexos claims, was from February of 2017, before D1G2 was out. A more recent incarnation of that sheet appeared in 2019.

Shell also handles (because they use) Mobil's EHC bases, which are likely what was used in the Gold Blend product you are referencing.
Shell Cargo Handling Sheet for Mobil EHC 50

There may be speculation that Warren is doing this, sure, and it would be foolish not to question the validity of those claims, but in terms of formulation, it's a completely doable task.

I was mistaken then about about the date Mobil made the claim. Regardless my point in my intitial statement was that Shell had actually produced said product and got it licensed. I don't know if anyone will try with D1G3 because the read across limitations might be considered to restrictive.

 

[Scott S]

I know I read on another forum an email that came from Warren saying there base stocks come from ExxonMobil. I don't claim to know anything about base stocks..

 

[OVERKILL]

I was mistaken then about about the date Mobil made the claim. Regardless my point in my intitial statement was that Shell had actually produced said product and got it licensed. I don't know if anyone will try with D1G3 because the read across limitations might be considered to restrictive.

I was simply quibbling about the use of the term speculation in how the statement was phrased We've both provided examples showing that it is possible to make the product, so clearly there's no speculation about the viability of the task, that much is clear.

What is Warren doing? I don't know. I recall we've seen some SDS sheets which might suggest they are using Group II+ (EHC) and, IIRC, there was some discussion about it, but that's hardly concrete.

Will definitely be interesting to see what transpires with D1G3. The XOM EHC oils are an interesting product and I am of the understanding that there are a lot of other blenders/formulators who buy them because of how cost effective they are. If D1G3 impacts that, it would definitely have an influence on sales.

 

[OVERKILL]

I know I read on another forum an email that came from Warren saying there base stocks come from ExxonMobil. I don't claim to know anything about base stocks..

Quite likely, XOM is a huge supplier and have an unrivalled portfolio of base oils available through XOM Chemical.

 

[Scott S]

Maybe somebody can educate me here, what is the difference in base stocks between Amsoil, Mobil 1, Quaker State, Pennzoil and Supertech let's say..

 

[MolaKule]

I recently wrote to Mobil 1 and asked the following question: "Concerning the seal conditioning agents found in High Mileage oil, do they also swell the seals and gaskets or is its purpose only to provide special conditioning to the gaskets and seals." The reply from Mobil 1: "The function of seal conditioners in ALL of our oils is to keep your soft seals flexible and pliable. This allows them to conform to little surface irregularities and machining imperfections, to keep the oil on the inside. My High Mileage oils contain a slightly higher conditioner content, intended to help if we have a problem seal."

It was my understanding that only High Mileage oils contained seal conditioners. But apparently ALL (at least Mobil 1) oils contain seal conditioners although High Mileage oils contain slightly more. Nothing was mentioned about the seal conditioners producing any swelling effect on gaskets and seals, at least not directly. Only a reference was made to this higher conditioner content having some effect on a 'problem seal.' So I am still not clear on whether or not seal conditioners also produce a swelling effect on gaskets and seals.

Conditioning seals (not Gaskets) refers to the following actions:

1) Increasing seal pliability due to molecular replacement of the Seal 's elastomer,

2) Seal Swell (slight expansion of elastomer due to slight increase in seal dimensions)

3) Seal cleaning,

Since 1974, formulations have pretty much solved the seal "shrink-swell" problem.

Stop leak fluids have little effect on Gaskets, so if you have a leak to the outside, it is usually due to a Gasket, not a Seal.

Now on older vehicles or vehicles with rear wheel drives, the most common fluid leak occurs because of a worn transmision tailshaft seal or rear engine seal, and is mostly seen when parking on an upslope where the rear of the vehicle is below the front.

On front wheel drive vehicles, the most common fluid leak is due to the pan gasket, in my experience.