Running oil filters multiple OCIs

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Originally Posted By: Tlhfirelion
... Problem is, I get all twitchy knowing it’s under there planning to explode on me! Lol. We drive about 25000 a year. Was gonna move to a high mileage oil this go round. I’d love to leave that filter.
Do it! Nothing horrible will happen, assuming your (unspecified) oil change interval is reasonable.
 
Originally Posted By: Yah-Tah-Hey
We aren't talking big bucks here so WHY?
Less land fill and oil for me.
 
Originally Posted By: Yah-Tah-Hey
We aren't talking big bucks here so WHY?


Because with a lot of vehicles it's a pain to change it, so only having to do it every other time is a time saver. Plus, oil filters get more efficient at trapping dirt once they get more miles on them. Honda has been recommending oil filter changes at every second oil change for a while now too.
 
On our Hondas and Acura I always did 20K miles with a PureOne filter.

That was with 3 OCI's. All engines were very clean with almost no oil usage.

Fumoto valves made oil changes a snap.
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: Yah-Tah-Hey
We aren't talking big bucks here so WHY?
Less land fill and oil for me.
And also less bother, less mess, and no real drawback, IF (and only if) your engine is healthy. Obviously, don't do it if previous filter autopsies revealed a lot of gunk.
 
I have read here people talking about "dirty" oil left in the filter. Well, that and the other oil left in the engine is as clean as the oil filter can make it. To the degree it's got contamination, it's the smaller stuff that is minimally harmful and because we are talking about a small volume of oil, it's a minimal amount of contamination anyway.

Makes my heart sing to read this thread. Years back when I beat some statistics out of filter industry professionals, they said that the average 7,500 mile filter in a modern car is less than 50% used up when it's replaced. Using a synthetic media filter eliminates the now very remote possibility of some type of age-related deterioration of a cellulose media filter (has anyone ever seen that... I haven't). Plus by keeping the filter in operation longer, you are well into it's higher efficiency range, when the large pores are mostly blocked. If you keep the intake system well filtered and don't let the oil oxidize, there is nothing in the oil to block the filter but the small amount of wear material the engine naturally generates and most filters have more than enough capacity to handle that.

I guess the only danger is to use a non premium filter too long and let a nitrile ADBV go hard. SOme of those budget fitlers are also short of media, so they would load up faster.

I guess I'm mostly preaching to the choir here, huh?
 
I usually run oil and filter past what the OLM in my car says to do but I'm not so sure that a filter can be used twice as long as the owner's manual stipulates. There are many unknown variables. Below is a picture of a Fram Ultra used for 19,800 miles. This was a little more than twice what the owner's manual would have had me do, but it's a Fram Ultra. A filter many people say has a very high dirt holding capacity. I think [no proof] it was used past it's ability to reasonably filter the oil. It was black and well loaded with carbon/dirt. Had I used a cheap no name paper filter, I believe it would have totally plugged up and or collapsed/torn.

I am not saying there is no time a filter can be used twice as long as scheduled but it can't always be done safely.

 
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Plus by keeping the filter in operation longer, you are well into it's higher efficiency range, when the large pores are mostly blocked.


Here's some data to say that may not always be the case. There was a few good threads about this phenomenon, but here's a snip-it out of the Purolator/Mann-Hummel technical paper discussing this. The efficiency over time curve is probably different depending on the media type. But in this case you can see the efficiency decreases slowly over time. A very long time ago I emailed Purolator asking about this, and all they could say is the efficiency vs use curve is a "hockey stick" shape. You can see what they were saying when looking at the graph below.

Notice it's the larger particles that are loosing out capture efficiency with use. Seems like it would be the other way around if the theory is the larger pores get clogged up with use. I think the increasing delta-p across the filter as it slowly gets clogged up is a factor in the media shedding already captured particles, and therefore a slight loss in efficiency as the media clogs up.

 
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
... Using a synthetic media filter eliminates the now very remote possibility of some type of age-related deterioration of a cellulose media filter (has anyone ever seen that... I haven't). ...
I guess the only danger is to use a non premium filter too long and let a nitrile ADBV go hard. SOme of those budget fitlers are also short of media, so they would load up faster. ...
Your posts are generally interesting, including this one.

In my experience, you're correct about that "remote possibility." I've cut many filters with over 17k miles, and never saw clearly degraded media. Maybe that can happen if there's a lot of water in the oil?

I did see degraded ADBVs, but that problem shouldn't be serious, and has been eliminated by the return to cartridge filters anyway.

It isn't just "budget filters" that are "short on media" these days. The manufacturers have been pushing that trend for years.
 
What is not clear on that chart is differential pressure. You put enough pressure behind it, you can push contamination through the media. Especially if it's a weak media.That could be where the hockey stick part of the curve come from, when the differential pressure starts blowing holes and contamination thru the media. I guess I'd need to see more of the material, not just this snippet, to evaluate their point. Also note the terms "sometimes." This doesn't look like a very real world interpretation of the concept. Finally, efficiecy improvements are generally a small percentage increase ... coupla percent at best.
 
Originally Posted By: WobblyElvis
... It was black and well loaded with carbon/dirt. Had I used a cheap no name paper filter, I believe it would have totally plugged up and or collapsed/torn.
If you're finding massive amounts of "dirt" in the filter, I'd guess that means you have a problem elsewhere in the engine, not that the filter couldn't have gone farther in happier circumstances.
The biggest chunks of solid "dirt" sit so far off the media surface that they may not restrict flow much, compared to smaller stuff that embeds.
 
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
What is not clear on that chart is differential pressure. You put enough pressure behind it, you can push contamination through the media. Especially if it's a weak media.That could be where the hockey stick part of the curve come from, when the differential pressure starts blowing holes and contamination thru the media. I guess I'd need to see more of the material, not just this snippet, to evaluate their point. Also note the terms "sometimes." This doesn't look like a very real world interpretation of the concept. Finally, efficiecy improvements are generally a small percentage increase ... coupla percent at best.


Where the curve shoots up fast at the end is where the filter is almost completely clogged, so yeah lots of delta-p on the media at that point, and I'd assume the delta-p was increasing proportionately from time zero to the time it shoots up fast.

Anyway, thought this was interesting data because people always keep saying "an oil filter gets more efficient with use" ... but not necessarily. Probably a good reason not to run an oil filter way past it's recommended use period. I'd think running a full synthetic filter that has much more holding capacity and less delta-p would better help the media keep the captured debris from shedding out of the media as the filter loads up.
 
Originally Posted By: CR94
Originally Posted By: WobblyElvis
... It was black and well loaded with carbon/dirt. Had I used a cheap no name paper filter, I believe it would have totally plugged up and or collapsed/torn.
If you're finding massive amounts of "dirt" in the filter, I'd guess that means you have a problem elsewhere in the engine, not that the filter couldn't have gone farther in happier circumstances.
The biggest chunks of solid "dirt" sit so far off the media surface that they may not restrict flow much, compared to smaller stuff that embeds.


This engine appears to be fine. It had 160,000 miles on it and consumed a qt/4500 miles when that filter came out of it. It now has 204,000 mile uses qt/3500 miles. The dirt appears to be completely normal in this engine for that many miles. The filters in todays cars are smaller than ever and I don't think it's right to automatically assume you can run a filter for multiple OCIs. Maybe you can, maybe you can't.
I have no proof this filter was overloaded but it looked done to me!
 
Originally Posted By: irv
Originally Posted By: MrOctober44
Why remove it not gonna make a different! Most engine have a quart of oil left in the lifter valley that you can't change!!!!


So, where do you draw the line? In my opinion, and I know this against what you guys are saying, if you are doing an oil change, isn't the purpose of the oil change to get as much of the dirty/used oil out as you can?
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Sure, maybe the filter will be fine and it can handle another OCI or 2, but if you have a quart held up in the engine and another 1/4-1/2 liter left in your filter, that adds up to a lot of dirty oil left in the engine.

Personally, since I like knowing that I got as much used/dirty/spent oil out of my engines as possible, I have switched to TG's instead of Ultras.

Each to their own, but if I am crawling underneath my vehicles to access the drain plugs, it isn't really any extra work to remove and replace the filter while I am under there. My Ram isn't the easiest filter to access, but with a rag laid over the steering rack (for a just in case) and a cut down ice cream container to catch the oil, it takes me moments while my oil is still draining.

Very well stated!
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Some of you state that an oil filter gets more efficient as it builds up sediment/dirt/particles/etc., in the filter media, right? "WHAT IF" you leave an oil filter on for multiple OCI's, and it builds up so much that it's going into by-pass mode all the time? How will you know "WHEN" it started going into by-pass? You remove the filter after you have used it 2 multiple OCI's and it's clogged beyond recognition. "WHEN" did it go into by-pass, and how much damage have you done to your engine? You continue to do multiple OCI's on the same filter, it keeps going into by-pass each time.....where do you draw the line on how much internal damage you want to continue doing to your engine?
I have an idea. Change the filter each time you drain the oil and you won't have that worry! Just sayin'......
2 flame suits on!
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Like everything else, this is not a "one size fits all" situation. The only way to know for sure is to have a differential pressure setup on your oil filter. I did at one point on a now-sold truck and those experiences validated what I was told by engineers from several companies that the average oil filter is tossed with more than 50 percent capacity left. They weren't talking about premium, high capacity filters, either. That the industry is moving in this direction is further validation of the idea.

How do I recommend approaching this, and this is how most of you seem to have done it:

-start with an engine that has no known issues that would generate high levels of contamination, excess blowby, high wear metals, etc. (a very high miles engine with an unknown history or "abused child" would be more suspect)

-have a tight air filtration system to minimize ingress of outside contamination... the more efficient the air filter, the better

-use an oil capable of the desired interval but change it before it oxidizes and creates sludge (UOA to determine an interval)

-choose a filter with a known high capacity and of a quality construction (to me that recipe is a synthetic media, premium filter)

-if you can opt for a filter with more area, you are hedging the bet


Wobbly, your example doesn't provide much useful information. Just as with an air filter, what you see in the media is not reflective of restriction. It can be, of course. Everyone has seen examples of air filters that look like a hunk of carved sod that are obviously plugged, but we have also seen nasty looking filters that had not yet reached a level of restriction that warranted replacement. I use air filters as an example here because they are a very visual filtration example and restriction gauges are common so the restriction of the filter can be easily measured. In your case, with as many miles as are on that engine, you could very well be pushing the envelope. I'm speculating but what I see on yours looks like sludge to me (oxidative byproducts). That could come from a worn engine that is making blowby and degrading the oil more quickly. Or, perhaps the oil wasn't quite up to the OCI, or perhaps your OCI is too long for the operational situation (lots of short hops). Again, I don't know the details of the situation and am offering some speculative suggestions. Without testing the filter, there is no way to tell how restricted it is, but my experienced guess is not too much. That said, 20K miles is a good long interval and probably a good time to retire the filter. IMO, the only thing subject to debate (a waste of breath since we have no way to test restriction) is whether that filter was restricted to a high level or not.
 
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