Rotella CJ-4 might not be holding up...

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read this steve. So is this the same for the VP fueled trucks?

The compression ratio's on 3rd Gen's are all the same.
The 17 vs 16.3 numbers only apply to 2nd gen ISB's.

All 3rd Gens are typically 17.3 to 1 ratio: SO's, HO's, And 600's, 610's etc.

They ALL have oil cooled pistons.
The SO's did not have the j-jets to shoot oil into the internal cooling chamber that is in the HO pistons.
The SO's retained the earlier upper bearing saddle based piston cooling nozzles.
On each engine the oil passage that is not used for cooling and lubrication is blocked off to retain oil pressure.
Its either one or the other: J-jet vs. Piston cooling nozzle


http://www.turbodieselregister.com/forum...difference.html
 
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With reading all the posts maybe the engine was run hard and oil really worked? PM Doug H and then share his info with us.
 
Originally Posted By: Harley Anderson
read this steve. So is this the same for the VP fueled trucks?

The compression ratio's on 3rd Gen's are all the same.
The 17 vs 16.3 numbers only apply to 2nd gen ISB's.

All 3rd Gens are typically 17.3 to 1 ratio: SO's, HO's, And 600's, 610's etc.

They ALL have oil cooled pistons.
The SO's did not have the j-jets to shoot oil into the internal cooling chamber that is in the HO pistons.
The SO's retained the earlier upper bearing saddle based piston cooling nozzles.
On each engine the oil passage that is not used for cooling and lubrication is blocked off to retain oil pressure.
Its either one or the other: J-jet vs. Piston cooling nozzle


http://www.turbodieselregister.com/forum...difference.html



Yes, they all have oil-cooled pistons, just different variations on the method of how it was accomplished. The VP trucks also had a SO/HO variant...and that was a block change, not sure about oiling.
 
On this round? Not yet...this just happened last weekend, have not had time to think about it.

I have a UOA on two rounds ago, where the oil did the same thing as this time.
 
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Couple things...they restated their comments about "getting into the bearings" with "normal for towing" in a later email...they did not know the conditions the oil was put through, and after talking with them; they indicated the wear numbers were actually normal/low for the towing and operating conditions I put it through.

The 11/7/07 analysis is the bad one...you can see all the other CJ-4 runs look just fine. Only the one subjected to towing is questionable...and the current fill of oil look and feels identical to that run.
 
"The engine is a 325HP/600TQ version, the only mods are 40HP injectors, a FASS, slight timing advance,..."

With the mods you're running with a camper and pulling a camper at 80 mph with a 4.10 axle ? Are you really surprised about any problems or using 6 qts of makeup oil ?
 
Originally Posted By: 1sttruck
"The engine is a 325HP/600TQ version, the only mods are 40HP injectors, a FASS, slight timing advance,..."

With the mods you're running with a camper and pulling a camper at 80 mph with a 4.10 axle ? Are you really surprised about any problems or using 6 qts of makeup oil ?



You missed everything...

The FASS is a fuel filter...the timing advance should COOL the EGTs.

The injectors are POST camping trip...and are not much more radical than stock, as they are supposed to increase fuel mileage (which they did slightly).

I was running EMPTY at 80mph...granted with 4.10s, but EMPTY.

And the 6 quarts of makeup oil was for a FILTER ELEMENT CHANGE in the Gulf Coast Filter...

And to add, the latest UOA is shown WITH the 40HP injectors (AND was in place when the original failed)...they REALLY screwed the oil up then, didn't they...

The mechanics of the engine have nothing to do with the oil, or it would happen in EVERY UOA.

smirk2.gif
 
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Hey Steve, looking at your uoa now it doesnt look that bad. If you're going to get uoa's like this with the work you put on the truck, you're probably still going to get a million miles out of it...
 
My mods are fuel mileage related, not power adding.

These mods have nothing to do with the problem...if they did, I would not have even started this thread because I know how most of the different mods affect the oil.

Additionally...if the injectors were the culprit, I would see massive amounts of fuel in my oil...and I don't.
 
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Originally Posted By: D-Roc
Hey Steve, looking at your uoa now it doesnt look that bad. If you're going to get uoa's like this with the work you put on the truck, you're probably still going to get a million miles out of it...



But I'd like to be extending OCIs out further...I've only gotten to around 15k on two events...and then I cause the oil to go blah.

If I lived in a slightly warmer climate year round, it would not bother me as much...but the viscosity increase really hurts cold starts.
 
"You missed everything...

The FASS is a fuel filter...the timing advance should COOL the EGTs."

Does it cool the EGTs or not ?

"The injectors are POST camping trip...and are not much more radical than stock, as they are supposed to increase fuel mileage (which they did slightly)."

I didn't see anything mentioned about when they were installed. Higher HP injectors usually mean more fuel, which usually means higher engine temps, regardless of whether you get better mileage.

"I was running EMPTY at 80mph...granted with 4.10s, but EMPTY.

And the 6 quarts of makeup oil was for a FILTER ELEMENT CHANGE in the Gulf Coast Filter...

And to add, the latest UOA is shown WITH the 40HP injectors (AND was in place when the original failed)...they REALLY screwed the oil up then, didn't they...

The mechanics of the engine have nothing to do with the oil, or it would happen in EVERY UOA."

No, the UOA will tend to reflect how the oil and engine responded to loads during the change interval, and in the case of some of the mods that you have the engine temps will tend to be higher with similar loads. Are the EGTs the same towing ? The torque war among the diesel pickups has meant that the makers have introduced regular upgrades in power output, and they're running them close to limits for the advertised average life; typical mods will tend to make them run hotter.
 
Originally Posted By: 1sttruck
"You missed everything...

The FASS is a fuel filter...the timing advance should COOL the EGTs."

Does it cool the EGTs or not ?

"The injectors are POST camping trip...and are not much more radical than stock, as they are supposed to increase fuel mileage (which they did slightly)."

I didn't see anything mentioned about when they were installed. Higher HP injectors usually mean more fuel, which usually means higher engine temps, regardless of whether you get better mileage.

"I was running EMPTY at 80mph...granted with 4.10s, but EMPTY.

And the 6 quarts of makeup oil was for a FILTER ELEMENT CHANGE in the Gulf Coast Filter...

And to add, the latest UOA is shown WITH the 40HP injectors (AND was in place when the original failed)...they REALLY screwed the oil up then, didn't they...

The mechanics of the engine have nothing to do with the oil, or it would happen in EVERY UOA."

No, the UOA will tend to reflect how the oil and engine responded to loads during the change interval, and in the case of some of the mods that you have the engine temps will tend to be higher with similar loads. Are the EGTs the same towing ? The torque war among the diesel pickups has meant that the makers have introduced regular upgrades in power output, and they're running them close to limits for the advertised average life; typical mods will tend to make them run hotter.





In my case, the detrimental "mods" do in fact keep the EGTs down...there are guys towing over the road at temps exceeding 1250*F; so my EGTs are elevated, but not excessive by any stretch. EGTs decreased overall with the replacement injectors...I can still spike the temps, but cruising they are less (especially under load).

And again, my mods are not for power...besides the injectors, everything I've done is for mileage improvement...I AVERAGED 20.1 mpg on this trip to Washington state and back, which is not to bad for a 4.10 equipped truck.

To make the point, there are some that are towing with chips/programmers and injectors (a lot bigger than mine) and they don't seem to have the issue I have...they have a soot loading issue, but not a oil characteristic change. In the realm of things, my truck is stock.
 
Cummins notes that an average temp may mask a cylinder with problems. Other have noted something like a 50F (?) difference between cylinders.

http://bankspower.com/Tech_whyegt.cfm

So the big question is, what constitutes excessive EGT? If everything is working properly, 1250º to 1300º F. is a safe turbine inlet temperature, even for sustained running, mile after mile. Above 1300º F. things can start to get edgy. Remember, excessive EGT damage is cumulative. Over 1400º F., you’re usually gambling against a stacked deck and it’s only a matter of time until you lose. The higher the EGT, the shorter that time will be.


http://www.cumminsownerz.com/f38/turbo-timer-egt-response-cummins-221/

Thanks for your Email message. You have contacted Cummins, Inc. at our
Customer Assistance Center located in Columbus, Indiana. This is our
worldwide headquarters and has been our home since Clessie Cummins founded
the company February 3, 1919.

Cummins does not provide maximum or minimum EGTs for our engines.



http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/Facts/96specs.html

Ram Exhaust Temperature Specification

Pyro Probe Location
exhaust manifold

Max Temp At Rated Power
1250 Degrees F

Max Temp At Torque peak
1250 Degrees F
 
Originally Posted By: 1sttruck
Cummins notes that an average temp may mask a cylinder with problems. Other have noted something like a 50F (?) difference between cylinders.

http://bankspower.com/Tech_whyegt.cfm

So the big question is, what constitutes excessive EGT? If everything is working properly, 1250º to 1300º F. is a safe turbine inlet temperature, even for sustained running, mile after mile. Above 1300º F. things can start to get edgy. Remember, excessive EGT damage is cumulative. Over 1400º F., you’re usually gambling against a stacked deck and it’s only a matter of time until you lose. The higher the EGT, the shorter that time will be.


http://www.cumminsownerz.com/f38/turbo-timer-egt-response-cummins-221/

Thanks for your Email message. You have contacted Cummins, Inc. at our
Customer Assistance Center located in Columbus, Indiana. This is our
worldwide headquarters and has been our home since Clessie Cummins founded
the company February 3, 1919.

Cummins does not provide maximum or minimum EGTs for our engines.



http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/Facts/96specs.html

Ram Exhaust Temperature Specification

Pyro Probe Location
exhaust manifold

Max Temp At Rated Power
1250 Degrees F

Max Temp At Torque peak
1250 Degrees F



I like your numbers...but they are not those typically quoted for a CRD 3rd gen truck. If you read deeper, you'll find those are numbers for a 2nd gen 24-valve...not a Common Rail.

Typically, it is stated that a CRD will be fine at 1450*F pulling...I only occasionally touch more than 1250*F, and nothing sustained (read, between gear shifts). There are guys racing that continuously run closer to 1600*F...I'm not even close.

And it was a Cummins engineer that was present at a dyno-day that indicated 1500*F sustained. It was tested at that, of course Cummins wouldn't post a number like that, one that would put them on the hook.

160k on the ticker...and still going strong.

And to add, considering this truck is more/less stock, 99% of the owners don't even have an EGT guage. I have not heard of too many stock trucks melting down...even those tugging way more down the road than they should be.

I guess what I'm saying is this...the truck is doing what every other 2004.5 dodge Cummins Common Rail truck is doing as far as EGTs, temps, fuel, ect...why is the oil in mine not holding up? Sorta rules out EGTs...

I am done with this talk, like this truck is significantly different than a stocker...it isn't.
 
"Typically, it is stated that a CRD will be fine at 1450*F pulling..."

Even banks warns about temps over 1300F, Cummins warns about temp differences between cylinders and won't state an acceptable EGT for the newer engines. This makes sense as it's common to 'guardband' a critical limit in order to account for unforseen variation in measurement.

The Cummins in the Dodge is known for being easy on oil, Rotella is popular, you have modified your engine but claim it's not really modified, you have problems with an engine known for being easy on oil, and complain about a oil that is popular in such engines.
 
Originally Posted By: 1sttruck
"Typically, it is stated that a CRD will be fine at 1450*F pulling..."

Even banks warns about temps over 1300F, Cummins warns about temp differences between cylinders and won't state an acceptable EGT for the newer engines. This makes sense as it's common to 'guardband' a critical limit in order to account for unforseen variation in measurement.

The Cummins in the Dodge is known for being easy on oil, Rotella is popular, you have modified your engine but claim it's not really modified, you have problems with an engine known for being easy on oil, and complain about a oil that is popular in such engines.


Are you a Cummins owner? Your statement borders on coming across as a little ignorant. I have seen more than a couple of owners who have had to "modify" their Dodge Cummins to lower their egt's. Not everything stock is going to perform as admirably as you so arrogantly allude to...
 
Originally Posted By: 1sttruck
"Typically, it is stated that a CRD will be fine at 1450*F pulling..."

Even banks warns about temps over 1300F, Cummins warns about temp differences between cylinders and won't state an acceptable EGT for the newer engines. This makes sense as it's common to 'guardband' a critical limit in order to account for unforseen variation in measurement.

The Cummins in the Dodge is known for being easy on oil, Rotella is popular, you have modified your engine but claim it's not really modified, you have problems with an engine known for being easy on oil, and complain about a oil that is popular in such engines.




The point is, my mods are not far enough from stock to be affecting the oil more radically than stock. And besides, this was a PRE-EXISTING CONDITION.

I'm done here...obviously you know more about my truck than I do...I had a big long response typed, then decided you aren't worth the time.

You are one of those that likes to argue for no other reason than to argue...and you add nothing to the thread, because you know very little on the subject (as shown here).
 
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