Pot stirring what's the best oil for heavy duty...

[Sledge_Hammer]

Originally Posted By: 4ever4d
In my 30+ years of trucking I have personally seen more 1,000,000 mile or more engines that spent there life on plain Delo 400 15w-40 than any others. So it gets my vote.


Yes, but that doesn't mean it's still the 'best' oil available even for the same money.

 

[Panzerman]

When we were in trucking we bought what was local and cheap.
It happened to be Pennzoil for awhile then we went with a brand called Emblem oil.
Regardless these were Triaxle coal trucks which I don't think you could put in more severe service in Pennsylvania then maybe log trucks.
Never a problem oil related with N14/ Series 60 or Silver 92 Detroit's. The 92 ran on straight 40 wt though.
My dad always said oil samples were a waste of money. He wasn't going to tear a motor down for a bad oil sample so why get them.

 

[4ever4d]

Originally Posted By: Sledge_Hammer
Originally Posted By: 4ever4d
In my 30+ years of trucking I have personally seen more 1,000,000 mile or more engines that spent there life on plain Delo 400 15w-40 than any others. So it gets my vote.


Yes, but that doesn't mean it's still the 'best' oil available even for the same money.

Very true. I am just posting my experience with Delo. I'm quite sure that for different situations there may be better oils, but i feel as though one would be hard pressed to find it.

 

[Fraser434]

Originally Posted By: Panzerman
When we were in trucking we bought what was local and cheap.
It happened to be Pennzoil for awhile then we went with a brand called Emblem oil.
Regardless these were Triaxle coal trucks which I don't think you could put in more severe service in Pennsylvania then maybe log trucks.
Never a problem oil related with N14/ Series 60 or Silver 92 Detroit's. The 92 ran on straight 40 wt though.
My dad always said oil samples were a waste of money. He wasn't going to tear a motor down for a bad oil sample so why get them.


What if you had a leaking oil cooler or injector cups. You won't notice it till either you see the oil is milky or bearing failure, even had an engine shutdown for low oil pressure, coolant had diluted the oil down enough didn't make pressure. With oil analysis can see these issues from the beginning stage. So I disagree.

 

[BrocLuno]

I believe the first Caterpillar truck engine (3406) to go over 1,000,000 miles - did it on Chevron Delo 400 ... But any of the well known HDEO's will do nearly as well. As long as you do not have any 2-stroke Detroits, you can just run 15W-40 with 10,000 mile changes as long as there are no air leaks in the intake or anywhere that dust can get in.

In dump trucks, like farm trucks, dust is the killer

We have a an old narrow nosed Pete and 1962 KW with over 1,000,000 each with small cam 335 Cummins that got there on straight SAE 30 HD. We have two 2-stroke Detroits with untold miles/hours on straight SAE 40 HD. And one 2-stroke Cat (water truck), also on straight SAE 40 HD.

The newer trucks are on 15W-40, usually Chevron, along with the field tractors. They are turbo Hesston's and Whites. The yard tractors are all Case and they run on straight SAE 30 HD.

No lube failures in any of them. Call you local oil jobber and get some quotes on 55 gal drums of whatever you decide on. Play for the bottom line. Get bulk discount on oil. Watch the air intakes like a hawk, and cruise on

As far as synthetics go, I have never found a professional paper that proves that synthetics actually lubricate better than good dino oil ... Engines may start easier in bitter cold and may not flash off as many light hydrocarbons in 125* desert heat. But there is no credible evidence I have been able to find that says there is superior lubrication to be had...

Premium HDEO oils have a very substantial proven track record from fleet operators all over the world, many who have enough lawyers to give the refiners serious head aches. Fleet oils are not made in any hap hazard fashion and they are some of the stoutest oils on the market. Never fear a good HDEO. If they can get the big fleets up over the Rockies and across the Great Basin in desert heat with hours of full turbo boost every trip, you'll be fine

 

[Sledge_Hammer]

Originally Posted By: Fraser434
Originally Posted By: userfriendly

How about a 16-645 EMD running on SAE 40 since 1965?


Here's the thing, SAE40 is great when the engine doesn't require cold starting. With SAE40 missing viscosity improvers it doesn't sheer as much as a winter grade oil.

Here's a good article on EMD engines oil and the observations changed my thinking toward oil greatly. Exxon Elite 20w-50 had the best result in terms of valve deposits and wear.... Piston aircraft oil, is the best diesel oil. Mind blown.

https://ctr.utexas.edu/wp-content/uploads/pubs/0_5532_1.pdf


and $83 bucks for 12 quarts........ then add shipping...... ouch!

 

[BrocLuno]

Yeah, but you have to run the oil for as long as practical. 10 gallon sumps don't need to be changed very often. If you add by-pass filtering, maybe every 20,000 miles as long as the oil is not contaminated ...

In my old Pete tanker back in the day, we ran 25,000 mile changes on double in-line sock filters. Yeah, it was black, but the UOA's said it was still OK. And I could steal oil or get a bucket here or there when I was loading, so no cost. Still didn't do it. Down-time is down-time. 25K and change which was about every 6 months or so. And that was on oil that is not nearly as good as today. But I had really good inlet filtration (double Donaldson's)

Was not shooting for 1M miles. Was shooting for 500,000 and and out into a new truck. In the tanking business, it's all about light weight. And we were back in Bridge Formula rules, so I was looking to shave off another 2,500 lbs in axle weight for more payload. Plus I had semi-smooth-bore tanks, and could make more with compartments, so looking to trade up ...

Hence the 25K changes. If I was going to keep it, it would have been more like your schedule and balance the down-time vs longevity ...

 

[userfriendly]

Fraser434;
Good paper on the EMD 12X645 you posted on page 1. I thought all those engines had silver bearings and had to use Zn free engine oil.
Those engines like to work hard for long periods of time at their rated HP, otherwise they get cranky.
The short 9 minute ferry hop at half power isn't long enough to burn off the carbon.
I would have used a CF-2 SAE 50 as one of the test oils. Mobil 1250 is one, Zn containing so never in a 16x645, 20x645 or 16x710 EMD.
MTUs list the approved engine oils for specific fuels and specific engines. The download is a mile long.

 

[dnewton3]

Sledge_Hammer ....

First

Now, understand that you've opened up the hornets nest; I'm sure you'll agree. You seem to already have a preconceived notion here. I'd like to use that against you in a manner which may make you feel uncomfortable at first.

Let me ask you this:
What does "best" mean to you?
Best wearing?
Best cost?
Best ROI?
Best other what???
Until you define "best", in a much clearer and more detailed manner, you'll never get what you seek, because you really don't know what you're after.


I would recommend this approach ...
- Investigate several contenders using UOAs. Take the entire fleet, and run them all on one lube of your choice. Use the engines to first establish a baseline of understanding. Get your data together and do some macro analysis; looking at the set as a whole.
- Then, experiment with a different lube; do the UOAs again.
- Yet again, try some more, and UOA.
- It will take some time and money to find out what you want to know

I would state that the "best" oil is that which gives the longest OCIs AND sustains your desired wear rates. (You'll need to set condemnation limits for both totals and rates).
The reality is that not one person here can tell you what is "best", because it has yet to be discovered. Only by testing will a "best" oil come out of hiding.

There are two ways to manage your maintenance plan
1) to a predetermined time/distance (hours/miles); this approach can be "safe" when set conservatively, but offers a great opportunity for waste
2) to a condemnation limit (wear metal totals; wear metal rates, FP, Vis, etc); this approach takes time and understanding, but can pay for itself easily via savings AND healthy equipment, if managed properly

There are a LOT of great oils out there; many already mentioned. There is no "best" that we can recommend, despite all the marketing hype you'll see and opinions you'll read. There are times when synthetics can pay for the extra cost; many times they cannot. Syns are best utilized in very long OCIs and uber cold temps. Hot temps are not a major concern; if your cooling systems are up to par, then the engine oil should never get hot enough to warrant using a syn. Syns can help in the heat if your system is compromised; but that's a crutch you should not lean on for very long, or disaster will ensue. In some conditions, syns cannot stop things from failing; they can only deter the inevitable. However, if you're equipment is well maintained and your engines have no design flaws, then conventional lubes will do a fine job.

The "best" oil is the one that satisfies your criteria. The better you define it, the more you'll be happy with the result.

Start by reading this:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis-how-to-decide-what-is-normal/

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Sledge_Hammer
Either synthetic oil is better or it's not. If it's better, why wouldn't you want to use it?

It depends what you're trying to do. If you're looking to extend OCIs or gain some extra winter starting assistance, you might see the benefits. Outside of that, you will have trouble getting a return on your investment.

 

[Sledge_Hammer]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Sledge_Hammer ....

First

Now, understand that you've opened up the hornets nest; I'm sure you'll agree. You seem to already have a preconceived notion here. I'd like to use that against you in a manner which may make you feel uncomfortable at first.

Let me ask you this:
What does "best" mean to you?
Best wearing?
Best cost?
Best ROI?
Best other what???
Until you define "best", in a much clearer and more detailed manner, you'll never get what you seek, because you really don't know what you're after.


I would recommend this approach ...
- Investigate several contenders using UOAs. Take the entire fleet, and run them all on one lube of your choice. Use the engines to first establish a baseline of understanding. Get your data together and do some macro analysis; looking at the set as a whole.
- Then, experiment with a different lube; do the UOAs again.
- Yet again, try some more, and UOA.
- It will take some time and money to find out what you want to know

I would state that the "best" oil is that which gives the longest OCIs AND sustains your desired wear rates. (You'll need to set condemnation limits for both totals and rates).
The reality is that not one person here can tell you what is "best", because it has yet to be discovered. Only by testing will a "best" oil come out of hiding.

There are two ways to manage your maintenance plan
1) to a predetermined time/distance (hours/miles); this approach can be "safe" when set conservatively, but offers a great opportunity for waste
2) to a condemnation limit (wear metal totals; wear metal rates, FP, Vis, etc); this approach takes time and understanding, but can pay for itself easily via savings AND healthy equipment, if managed properly

There are a LOT of great oils out there; many already mentioned. There is no "best" that we can recommend, despite all the marketing hype you'll see and opinions you'll read. There are times when synthetics can pay for the extra cost; many times they cannot. Syns are best utilized in very long OCIs and uber cold temps. Hot temps are not a major concern; if your cooling systems are up to par, then the engine oil should never get hot enough to warrant using a syn. Syns can help in the heat if your system is compromised; but that's a crutch you should not lean on for very long, or disaster will ensue. In some conditions, syns cannot stop things from failing; they can only deter the inevitable. However, if you're equipment is well maintained and your engines have no design flaws, then conventional lubes will do a fine job.

The "best" oil is the one that satisfies your criteria. The better you define it, the more you'll be happy with the result.

Start by reading this:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis-how-to-decide-what-is-normal/



Thanks!

yup, hornets nest...... lol

you are prolly right on doing all that, but there are soooo many variables in what we run on each truck that while it might give me some guidelines, i don't think it would be all that accurate. Filtration is different between the all the trucks, some of double cab side filters, some double single under the hood filters. some trucks will be in the city most of one oil change, some will be out in the oil field etc....

so, that is why I came on here.... What I mean by best is one the reduces wear the most, thus giving me the longest engine life. Down time is expensive and so is rebuilding engines.

 

[Sledge_Hammer]

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Yeah, but you have to run the oil for as long as practical. 10 gallon sumps don't need to be changed very often. If you add by-pass filtering, maybe every 20,000 miles as long as the oil is not contaminated ...

In my old Pete tanker back in the day, we ran 25,000 mile changes on double in-line sock filters. Yeah, it was black, but the UOA's said it was still OK. And I could steal oil or get a bucket here or there when I was loading, so no cost. Still didn't do it. Down-time is down-time. 25K and change which was about every 6 months or so. And that was on oil that is not nearly as good as today. But I had really good inlet filtration (double Donaldson's)

Was not shooting for 1M miles. Was shooting for 500,000 and and out into a new truck. In the tanking business, it's all about light weight. And we were back in Bridge Formula rules, so I was looking to shave off another 2,500 lbs in axle weight for more payload. Plus I had semi-smooth-bore tanks, and could make more with compartments, so looking to trade up ...

Hence the 25K changes. If I was going to keep it, it would have been more like your schedule and balance the down-time vs longevity ...


My brother use to run over the road. He had an amzoil filtration set up and ran their oil. He'd get 40,000 + miles on an oil change.

 

[Sledge_Hammer]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Sledge_Hammer
Either synthetic oil is better or it's not. If it's better, why wouldn't you want to use it?

It depends what you're trying to do. If you're looking to extend OCIs or gain some extra winter starting assistance, you might see the benefits. Outside of that, you will have trouble getting a return on your investment.


figurin 1,000,000 bench mark. Changing oil every 15k would be about 66 oil changes. With a cost of about $17k with synthetics. Using dino oil would be 100 oil changes at about $14k, so about $3k in differences.

so you don't think for $3k that it would be worth it?

 

[Panzerman]

Originally Posted By: Fraser434
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
When we were in trucking we bought what was local and cheap.
It happened to be Pennzoil for awhile then we went with a brand called Emblem oil.
Regardless these were Triaxle coal trucks which I don't think you could put in more severe service in Pennsylvania then maybe log trucks.
Never a problem oil related with N14/ Series 60 or Silver 92 Detroit's. The 92 ran on straight 40 wt though.
My dad always said oil samples were a waste of money. He wasn't going to tear a motor down for a bad oil sample so why get them.


What if you had a leaking oil cooler or injector cups. You won't notice it till either you see the oil is milky or bearing failure, even had an engine shutdown for low oil pressure, coolant had diluted the oil down enough didn't make pressure. With oil analysis can see these issues from the beginning stage. So I disagree.


Actually the Silver 92 did blow a injector line and pumped the crankcase with diesel. I noticed a problem when the Jake brake quit working because they work off oil pressure and the pressure dropped. Had a mechanic come out, fix the injector, changed the oil and filters and back on the road. No I'll effects probably just a cleaner motor.
These are industrial motors.
They take quite a beating and the newer ones are monitoring constant. The slightest problem with the Series 60 and you get a blinking engine light, better find a wide spot because after 30 it's shutting down and it was so sensitive it picked up a leaking coolant overflow tank getting low.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Sledge_Hammer
so you don't think for $3k that it would be worth it?

It certainly might be. Avoiding downtime on its own can make it a very attractive option. UOAs might be able to extend that 15,000 mile OCI out (and even the conventional OCI, in fairness, too).

 

[userfriendly]

Centrifugal oil filters;

www.spinnerii.com

Has anybody tried one?

 

[Panzerman]

I tried one. The tar that comes off them is incredible but I seem to think they are more of a gimmick and not worth the cost or the time it takes to service it with each oil change even with the paper side filters.

 

[userfriendly]

I was poking around railway stuff and found a photo of a pair of those filters on a UP GE AC44 locomotive.
There are a few videos in the web site. The story is likely in there somewhere.
Railways do their own used oil monitoring.

Track lubricants here; www.lbfoster.com

 

[dnewton3]

Originally Posted By: Sledge_Hammer
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Sledge_Hammer ....

First

Now, understand that you've opened up the hornets nest; I'm sure you'll agree. You seem to already have a preconceived notion here. I'd like to use that against you in a manner which may make you feel uncomfortable at first.

Let me ask you this:
What does "best" mean to you?
Best wearing?
Best cost?
Best ROI?
Best other what???
Until you define "best", in a much clearer and more detailed manner, you'll never get what you seek, because you really don't know what you're after.


I would recommend this approach ...
- Investigate several contenders using UOAs. Take the entire fleet, and run them all on one lube of your choice. Use the engines to first establish a baseline of understanding. Get your data together and do some macro analysis; looking at the set as a whole.
- Then, experiment with a different lube; do the UOAs again.
- Yet again, try some more, and UOA.
- It will take some time and money to find out what you want to know

I would state that the "best" oil is that which gives the longest OCIs AND sustains your desired wear rates. (You'll need to set condemnation limits for both totals and rates).
The reality is that not one person here can tell you what is "best", because it has yet to be discovered. Only by testing will a "best" oil come out of hiding.

There are two ways to manage your maintenance plan
1) to a predetermined time/distance (hours/miles); this approach can be "safe" when set conservatively, but offers a great opportunity for waste
2) to a condemnation limit (wear metal totals; wear metal rates, FP, Vis, etc); this approach takes time and understanding, but can pay for itself easily via savings AND healthy equipment, if managed properly

There are a LOT of great oils out there; many already mentioned. There is no "best" that we can recommend, despite all the marketing hype you'll see and opinions you'll read. There are times when synthetics can pay for the extra cost; many times they cannot. Syns are best utilized in very long OCIs and uber cold temps. Hot temps are not a major concern; if your cooling systems are up to par, then the engine oil should never get hot enough to warrant using a syn. Syns can help in the heat if your system is compromised; but that's a crutch you should not lean on for very long, or disaster will ensue. In some conditions, syns cannot stop things from failing; they can only deter the inevitable. However, if you're equipment is well maintained and your engines have no design flaws, then conventional lubes will do a fine job.

The "best" oil is the one that satisfies your criteria. The better you define it, the more you'll be happy with the result.

Start by reading this:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis-how-to-decide-what-is-normal/



Thanks!

yup, hornets nest...... lol

you are prolly right on doing all that, but there are soooo many variables in what we run on each truck that while it might give me some guidelines, i don't think it would be all that accurate. Filtration is different between the all the trucks, some of double cab side filters, some double single under the hood filters. some trucks will be in the city most of one oil change, some will be out in the oil field etc....

so, that is why I came on here.... What I mean by best is one the reduces wear the most, thus giving me the longest engine life. Down time is expensive and so is rebuilding engines.


You have "soooo many variables" to track, but somehow think a one-size-fits-all oil exists?
You don't think UOAs will be accurate, but are waiting for the opinions here to synergistically congeal into one cohesive agreement?
You clearly want the unicorn to prance into your maintenance garage and excrete the magic lube.

No problem ...
I'll tell you what the "best" oil is ( ... but don't tell anyone else, because it's a secret we only tell our "best" friends .... )
It's the most expensive synthetic you can find, changed every 3k miles.


Good luck in your endeavors.

 

[Sledge_Hammer]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Originally Posted By: Sledge_Hammer
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Sledge_Hammer ....

First

Now, understand that you've opened up the hornets nest; I'm sure you'll agree. You seem to already have a preconceived notion here. I'd like to use that against you in a manner which may make you feel uncomfortable at first.

Let me ask you this:
What does "best" mean to you?
Best wearing?
Best cost?
Best ROI?
Best other what???
Until you define "best", in a much clearer and more detailed manner, you'll never get what you seek, because you really don't know what you're after.


I would recommend this approach ...
- Investigate several contenders using UOAs. Take the entire fleet, and run them all on one lube of your choice. Use the engines to first establish a baseline of understanding. Get your data together and do some macro analysis; looking at the set as a whole.
- Then, experiment with a different lube; do the UOAs again.
- Yet again, try some more, and UOA.
- It will take some time and money to find out what you want to know

I would state that the "best" oil is that which gives the longest OCIs AND sustains your desired wear rates. (You'll need to set condemnation limits for both totals and rates).
The reality is that not one person here can tell you what is "best", because it has yet to be discovered. Only by testing will a "best" oil come out of hiding.

There are two ways to manage your maintenance plan
1) to a predetermined time/distance (hours/miles); this approach can be "safe" when set conservatively, but offers a great opportunity for waste
2) to a condemnation limit (wear metal totals; wear metal rates, FP, Vis, etc); this approach takes time and understanding, but can pay for itself easily via savings AND healthy equipment, if managed properly

There are a LOT of great oils out there; many already mentioned. There is no "best" that we can recommend, despite all the marketing hype you'll see and opinions you'll read. There are times when synthetics can pay for the extra cost; many times they cannot. Syns are best utilized in very long OCIs and uber cold temps. Hot temps are not a major concern; if your cooling systems are up to par, then the engine oil should never get hot enough to warrant using a syn. Syns can help in the heat if your system is compromised; but that's a crutch you should not lean on for very long, or disaster will ensue. In some conditions, syns cannot stop things from failing; they can only deter the inevitable. However, if you're equipment is well maintained and your engines have no design flaws, then conventional lubes will do a fine job.

The "best" oil is the one that satisfies your criteria. The better you define it, the more you'll be happy with the result.

Start by reading this:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis-how-to-decide-what-is-normal/



Thanks!

yup, hornets nest...... lol

you are prolly right on doing all that, but there are soooo many variables in what we run on each truck that while it might give me some guidelines, i don't think it would be all that accurate. Filtration is different between the all the trucks, some of double cab side filters, some double single under the hood filters. some trucks will be in the city most of one oil change, some will be out in the oil field etc....

so, that is why I came on here.... What I mean by best is one the reduces wear the most, thus giving me the longest engine life. Down time is expensive and so is rebuilding engines.


You have "soooo many variables" to track, but somehow think a one-size-fits-all oil exists?
You don't think UOAs will be accurate, but are waiting for the opinions here to synergistically congeal into one cohesive agreement?
You clearly want the unicorn to prance into your maintenance garage and excrete the magic lube.

No problem ...
I'll tell you what the "best" oil is ( ... but don't tell anyone else, because it's a secret we only tell our "best" friends .... )
It's the most expensive synthetic you can find, changed every 3k miles.


Good luck in your endeavors.


well that's being a bit of a smart alack......

no, don't want no unicorn, just want what peoples opines are on the best for what we are doing and/or what the tests show, as I cannot find any direct comparison tests.

I listed what oils we use also in hopes that someone that knows would say "the tests on Mobile 1 is really good, bad or indifferent, same for the rotella T6.