Pat Goss' perspective on thicker oils

[HowAboutThis]

As many know, just go to a website, like Castrol Australia, and search for your favorite car models. In the US they're probably all 0w20. The ones I searched called up with multiple options on the Australia site. Different engines? I don't know. Kind of doubt it. Also, for instance, in the Subaru manual it says to use 0w20 unless you can't find it. Then 5w30 and (I think it said) 5w40 conventional are ok but change back at the next oil change. Reading between the lines, "it doesn't really matter as long as you're not running 20w50 in subzero temps." Just my opinion. With that said, when under warranty I use what it says to use.

 

[FCD]

Older engines were more tolerant of different viscosities, my 1975 Capri allows anything from 5W-20 to 20W-50 depending on ambient temp, including Straight 30 and 40.
However it does say 20W-50 is the preferred viscosity for above freezing temps.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted by SR5


Here is a link to our (Australian) Camry Hybrid owners manual
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4890579/1

It lists: 0W16, 0W20, 5W20, 5W30, 10W30 and 15W40 as being acceptable by Toyota for its modern VVT Engine.

Someone should send that to Goss.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted by Astro14
Who?


My thoughts exactly.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted by FordCapriDriver
Older engines were more tolerant of different viscosities, my 1975 Capri allows anything from 5W-20 to 20W-50 depending on ambient temp, including Straight 30 and 40.
However it does say 20W-50 is the preferred viscosity for above freezing temps.

Every engine is tolerant of different viscosities. They couldn't run if they weren't. Room temperature 0W-16 is a lot thicker than 20W-50 at operating temperature.

 

[dlundblad]

I had to turn him off. I couldn't take it.

This is just a guess, but engineers have little say in what oil is used. I get sick of hearing listen to the engineers. If you don't believe me, look at what is "required" here vs say Australia in a vehicle with the same engine.

I also get sick of hearing "read the manual." The Volvo in my signature is the best example of that with the engine oil and PSF. The PSF especially.. the manual is 100% wrong in that regard.

Best thing to do is either get a UOA for your own best interests or at least find UOA's from other like engines. It's easy to spot the picky and less picky engines and make a decision based on that.

 

[Triple_Se7en]

Isn't the only decision - is to stay within the viscosity index inside your owners manual, during the warranty period?

 

[PWMDMD]

Pat is fighting against one of the biggest problems in America at the moment - the death of expertise. People believe with google they can "inform" themselves and make critical decisions on topics that in decades past we left up to the real experts. You know, people with PhDs who live and breathe a particular subject. Then the interweb came along and "Jim" with his C- average in prealgebra and his GED decided "climate change" isn't real because last fall it was 2 degrees F cooler than normal and the numbers do not make sense to him. Now it has extended to motor oil viscosities. Next people will be showing their heart surgeon a Youtube video instructing them how they'd like their surgery done.

Yes, I know the experts aren't always right but they are right a lot more than they are wrong and it still makes sense to follow the expert's opinions over you know, Jim the greeter at Walmart. The justifications for not following experts (the manufacturer engineers) are ludicrous - "This is just a guess, but engineers have little say in what oil is used"??? Really...do you want to rethink that statement? It is a WILD and counterintuitive guess about something you can not possibly have any knowledge about so why pose the statement? That's about as valid as, "I believe engineers make design decisions using a dartboard."

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Isn't the only decision - is to stay within the viscosity index inside your owners manual, during the warranty period?


Ah ha! I knew this was coming. To answer your question, yes.

What exactly do you mean by viscosity index? A list of suitable viscosities depending on what is available, driving conditions etc? This to me is a non issue since it gives you more than a single option.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted by Silverado12
Ford changed their recommended oil from 5W-30 to 5W-20 for Modular engines back around 20 years or so ago. There are a lot of Mustang people who say the Modular motors need 5W-30 instead. Amsoil even published an article saying that this change was done for CAFE only, even though they had a 5W-20 oil available at the time. I would also trust a premium manufacturer of oil if they don't recommend the thin oil. Pat is basically right, though; you can use recommended oil w/o issue for everyday use.


Any engine that is run on 5/20 can run on 5/30. Look at 5/20 as the average temperature operating range in the USA. Just like charts of the past, you can always go up a grade.

 

[Triple_Se7en]

Originally Posted by dlundblad
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Isn't the only decision - is to stay within the viscosity index inside your owners manual, during the warranty period?


Ah ha! I knew this was coming. To answer your question, yes.

What exactly do you mean by viscosity index? A list of suitable viscosities depending on what is available, driving conditions etc? This to me is a non issue since it gives you more than a single option.

Usually a chart exists in the owners manual, citing outdoor temperatures and attached viscosity numbers to go by. That's what I meant.

----------------------------------------------------------

A later post by another member states that engines can run on more than what the owners manual states. True and it works, unless an engine problem occurs during warranty and the owner gets caught / blamed for the problem that's associated with what was used, outside of viscosity numbers allowed for warranty coverage.

Different viscosities may be better. But I would not use them, until the warranty is expired. If you adopt Australia owner manual stipulations for driving in the USA, well, good luck getting automakers to side with you in a dispute. Better have a good lawyer, that's well versed in gasoline oils.

 

[buster]

Originally Posted by 4WD
Software in ECM that controls VVT and that comes back to viscosity compatibility for the hydraulic actuations.

Folks often say that same engine in country X runs thicker oil. True but if that thicker oil is in the owners manual for that engine … I'm going to place my bet that aforementioned system is programmed for it.


That is a very good point. I'm curious.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Doesn't Prius (in the manual) allow 0W20-20W50? Someone here posted it one time.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by LubricatusObsess
Thanks, OVERKILL. I remember reading about LSPI some years ago and thought "meh". Apparently it is the new engine trend? Engine builders can't get rid of it via software?


No problem. You could eliminate the low speed part via software

In the pursuit of efficiency, pushing the displacement down and specific output up while trying to keep RPM low appears to create an environment where deposits can cause spontaneous ignition; a super knock, which can cause engine damage. The current method of mitigation is via changes in oil chemistry to avoid producing the deposits that cause the event.

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

Originally Posted by dlundblad
I had to turn him off. I couldn't take it.

This is just a guess, but engineers have little say in what oil is used. I get sick of hearing listen to the engineers. If you don't believe me, look at what is "required" here vs say Australia in a vehicle with the same engine.

I also get sick of hearing "read the manual." The Volvo in my signature is the best example of that with the engine oil and PSF. The PSF especially.. the manual is 100% wrong in that regard.

Best thing to do is either get a UOA for your own best interests or at least find UOA's from other like engines. It's easy to spot the picky and less picky engines and make a decision based on that.


What is the predominant oils available in a given market have to do with engineers? Do you think engineers prefer conventional oils available in Mexico because they're thicker than the synthetics here? At one time many pointed to Japanese manuals recommending 5W-30 over 5W-20, now they are more on the thin side than we are....

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

Originally Posted by PWMDMD
Pat is fighting against one of the biggest problems in America at the moment - the death of expertise. People believe with google they can "inform" themselves and make critical decisions on topics that in decades past we left up to the real experts. You know, people with PhDs who live and breathe a particular subject. Then the interweb came along and "Jim" with his C- average in prealgebra and his GED decided "climate change" isn't real because last fall it was 2 degrees F cooler than normal and the numbers do not make sense to him. Now it has extended to motor oil viscosities. Next people will be showing their heart surgeon a Youtube video instructing them how they'd like their surgery done.

Yes, I know the experts aren't always right but they are right a lot more than they are wrong and it still makes sense to follow the expert's opinions over you know, Jim the greeter at Walmart. The justifications for not following experts (the manufacturer engineers) are ludicrous - "This is just a guess, but engineers have little say in what oil is used"??? Really...do you want to rethink that statement? It is a WILD and counterintuitive guess about something you can not possibly have any knowledge about so why pose the statement? That's about as valid as, "I believe engineers make design decisions using a dartboard."

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted by dlundblad
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Isn't the only decision - is to stay within the viscosity index inside your owners manual, during the warranty period?


Ah ha! I knew this was coming. To answer your question, yes.

What exactly do you mean by viscosity index? A list of suitable viscosities depending on what is available, driving conditions etc? This to me is a non issue since it gives you more than a single option.

Usually a chart exists in the owners manual, citing outdoor temperatures and attached viscosity numbers to go by. That's what I meant.

----------------------------------------------------------

A later post by another member states that engines can run on more than what the owners manual states. True and it works, unless an engine problem occurs during warranty and the owner gets caught / blamed for the problem that's associated with what was used, outside of viscosity numbers allowed for warranty coverage.

Different viscosities may be better. But I would not use them, until the warranty is expired. If you adopt Australia owner manual stipulations for driving in the USA, well, good luck getting automakers to side with you in a dispute. Better have a good lawyer, that's well versed in gasoline oils.


Yes if there's a chart, it's a non issue.

Say there's a truck with a big V8 that specifies 5w20, but a "2500/ super duty" with the same engine specifies 5w30, what would be your preferred choice? The engine can obviously use both.

I'd use the 5w30 personally.

 

[HowAboutThis]

Originally Posted by PWMDMD
Pat is fighting against one of the biggest problems in America at the moment - the death of expertise. People believe with google they can "inform" themselves and make critical decisions on topics that in decades past we left up to the real experts. You know, people with PhDs who live and breathe a particular subject. Then the interweb came along and "Jim" with his C- average in prealgebra and his GED decided "climate change" isn't real because last fall it was 2 degrees F cooler than normal and the numbers do not make sense to him. Now it has extended to motor oil viscosities. Next people will be showing their heart surgeon a Youtube video instructing them how they'd like their surgery done.

Yes, I know the experts aren't always right but they are right a lot more than they are wrong and it still makes sense to follow the expert's opinions over you know, Jim the greeter at Walmart. The justifications for not following experts (the manufacturer engineers) are ludicrous - "This is just a guess, but engineers have little say in what oil is used"??? Really...do you want to rethink that statement? It is a WILD and counterintuitive guess about something you can not possibly have any knowledge about so why pose the statement? That's about as valid as, "I believe engineers make design decisions using a dartboard."



Similar to a doctor telling you a test for illness X is 99% accurate but not understanding that prevalence of the illness can significantly affect what the "99% accuracy" actually means? Or the engineers and computer programmers I know quite well talking about most of their decisions being affected by accountants and marketing departments?

"Truth" is a substantially complex thing.

 

[HowAboutThis]

🤷â€â™‚ï¸ Is a Subaru website an "expert" or a "Walmart greeter"?

"Subaru Synthetic Motor Oil comes in two SAE weights: OW-20 and 5W-30.
OW-20 is used in the non-turbo engine, designed for improved fuel economy and increased power.
5W-30 is formulated for the turbo engine, which runs at a higher temperature. It has increased protection against breakdown, and superior lubrication for optimal fuel economy. 5W-30 can be used for non-turbo vehicles, with the exception of the 2011 Forester."

https://www.patriotsubaru.com/synthetic-oil.htm

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by rideahorse
I am in the thicker oil crowd. Want to know why. Because I am paying the bill. My Ford Edge has 250,000 miles on 15w-40 diesel oil. Still runs perfect. Would it have done it on 5w-20. Maybe. But I know it did it with my oil. We have a lot of engines that run a lot of hours on full duty loads and they live on thick oil. I see a lot of guys on here that run cars on thin oil with very light duty loads that have oil usage issues. Makes you wonder. Follow the money guys and open your eyes.



No it doesn't make anyone wonder who maintain fleet vehicles. Fleet engines are operated in extremely harsh conditions here the worst kind of conditions thousands of hours of idle time with times of WOT off road desert. Nothing but the bulk oil with the recommended grade and specs with the lowest bidder.

So the money said this. Even in conditions averaging over 20 hours of vehicle operation 5-6 days a week in the desert in duty cycles harsher than 99% of BITOG can duplicate engine failure due to inadequate lubricant just doesn't happen.