Not all oiled filters are similarly bad to K&N...

[ZeeOSix]

You don't get it. The flow bench tests was just for flow new vs. dirty and have nothing to do with the filtering performance - just sheer flow.

Go back and read post 35 again ... that's exactly what I said.

Regarding the pulsing vs steady flow - since you don't have a test ether, I consider your theory also in the flat earth territory.
David - on the other hand - did a ton of tests and extensive research to figure out how K&N does the filtering, (sorry he didn't write a paper on it), you - did nothing, nothing at all - all you have to show is a lot of opinion.

Nope ... my viewpoint is based on actual ISO 5011 testing. His "claim/theory" is that K&N air filters are "way more efficient" when they are actually ran on an engine because it puts "air pulsations" through the filter media. That is only a theory with zero testing or evidence that proves that claim. So yeah, that is a "flat earth" claim until it's been proven.

David is a living legend when it comes to those things, while you are (no offense) just a random guy on the internet - so guess where my trust is?
Track record is everything.

LoL ... sorry, but even if he is an engineer, his claim is still just a theory with zero real evidence to back it up. You do realize that "some guys on the internet" may have some background that you know nothing about.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Go back and read post 35 again ... that's exactly what I said.


Nope ... my viewpoint is based on actual ISO 5011 testing. His "claim/theory" is that K&N air filters are "way more efficient" when they are actually ran on an engine that puts air pulsations through the filter media. That is only a theory with zero testing or evidence that proves that claim. So yeah, that is a "flat earth" claim until it's been proven.


LoL ... sorry, but even if he is an engineer, his claim is still just a theory with zero real evidence to back it up. You do realize that "some guys on the internet" may have some background that you know nothing about.

The ultimate “flat earth” claim:

 

[ZeeOSix]

I have the S&B intake with oiled filter, and there had been some comments that it was a "rock catcher".

But when it's on the engine, it will be 102% efficient !!

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

But when it's on the engine, it will be 102% efficient !!

Funny… but even I don’t think that. I wish we could get freer-flowing Fram Ultra air filter media in performance shapes rather than just the flat panel replacements.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Funny… but even I don’t think that.

It was sarcasm ... hence the . Obviously, no filter on earth can be over 100% efficient, unless you were living on a "flat earth", lol.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

It was sarcasm ... hence the . Obviously, no filter on earth can be over 100% efficient, unless you were living on a "flat earth", lol.

I got the sarcasm

I would like to see some performance filters made with the Fram Ultra AF media, though.

 

[JimmyChainsaw]

You guys need to check the oil analysis reports.Whenever a K&N air filter is fitted the Silicone reading goes up.

 

[RooflessVW]

You guys need to check the oil analysis reports.Whenever a K&N air filter is fitted the Silicone reading goes up.

Except when it doesn't

 

[OVERKILL]

Yes; if the theory of "pulse" had any basis in reality, we'd see LOWER silicon results on UOAs with oiled filters, correct? Not the ubiquitous higher silicon on every UOA that the owner admits to having a K&N on?

And we'd see them on mining equipment instead of the Donaldson PowerCore type filters.

 

[OVERKILL]

I got the sarcasm

I would like to see some performance filters made with the Fram Ultra AF media, though.

AMSOIL used to sell EaA filters that used the Donaldson media, which was extremely good. They were discontinued however.

 

[OVERKILL]

If the pulse of the the intake charge was critical to the operation of an oiled cotton filter, the media type and density would have to be tuned to the application.

The number of cylinders, the number of filters, whether or not the engine is forced induction - each filter would have to be tuned to all of these scenarios and more.

Instead, the same media is used in every application, across multiple brands. Even my helicopters have oiled cotton media.

You just touched on something there.

Even if we assume that the pulses from a multiple cylinder engine don't totally cancel each other out to the point that they aren't seen by the air filter (particularly as RPM is increased), if you add forced induction to the mix, the draw profile through the filter is essentially the same as the official ISO 5011 test procedure because it's decoupled/isolated from the intake pulses that are happening downstream.

 

[FishFry]

That is only a theory with zero testing or evidence that proves that claim.

Seriously? What part of "he did a ton of tests and extensive research to figure out how K&N does the filtering,"
didn't you understand?

The only one with zero testing theories here is you.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Seriously? What part of "he did a ton of tests and extensive research to figure out how K&N does the filtering,"
didn't you understand?

The only one with zero testing theories here is you.

LoL, he did not do any testing that proved his theory that intake pulsations make K&N air filters "way more efficient" when used on an engine vs tested per ISO 5011.

You obviously either did not watch the whole video, or didn't comprehended what he said. Tell me exactly where in that video where he talks about the proof of his "pulsations claim" that was proven with test data. There is absolutely ZERO proof.

ISO 5011 testing is not a "theory", it's controlled testing with actual measured data. All he had were just "theories" with ZERO test data to prove anything related the "pulsation" efficiency. He thinks PF's testing is valid data, which also makes him look less credible too that he knows much if anything about filter efficiency or the ISO test standard. He knows flow vs dP on a flow bench (with smooth flow, not "pulsations"), but seems that's about it.

 

[John105]

A lot was on the web in the early 2000s but pulled, and one was an article debunking K&N. Basically someone had $1 mil of bench testing equipment so he proved K&N performed worse than OE filters once in use. Meaning K&N always claimed their filters got better as they got dirtier, but the report proved otherwise. I used to use K&N and observe my mpgs dropping over time, which would prompt me to clean my filter and reoil. So here we are in 2023 and K&N still sells the same product?

 

[RooflessVW]

I think that the intake design has more to do with an oiled cotton filter's efficiency in use than any vibration voodoo.

On my Touareg, for example, air from the grill hits a wall in the bottom of the filter box and the clean piping is at the top of the other side of the filter. Most dirt is going to be stopped by the direction change.

Most (factory) intake systems will be designed this way.

 

[kschachn]

LoL, he did not do any testing that proved his theory that intake pulsations make K&N air filters "way more efficient" when used on an engine vs tested per ISO 5011.

You obviously either did not watch the whole video, or didn't comprehended what he said. Tell me exactly where in that video where he talks about the proof of his "pulsations claim" that was proven with test data. There is absolutely ZERO proof.

ISO 5011 testing is not a "theory", it's controlled testing with actual measured data. All he had were just "theories" with ZERO test data to prove anything related the "pulsation" efficiency. He thinks PF's testing is valid data, which also makes him look less credible too that he knows much if anything about filter efficiency or the ISO test standard. He knows flow vs dP on a flow bench (with smooth flow, not "pulsations"), but seems that's about it.

Exactly. The silly old “they (he) tested it”. Much like that other entity that “tests” things.

Such a gross lack of understanding sometimes on what constitutes valid testing.

 

[CanAmAndMore]

Exactly. The silly old “they (he) tested it”. Much like that other entity that “tests” things.

Such a gross lack of understanding sometimes on what constitutes valid testing.

But my grandparents, neighbors, dog walkers, uncle swears it is the best.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Yes; if the theory of "pulse" had any basis in reality, we'd see LOWER silicon results on UOAs with oiled filters, correct? Not the ubiquitous higher silicon on every UOA that the owner admits to having a K&N on?

If it was also true, I'd think that K&N would have conducted some valid testing that proved that their filters are "way more efficient" when actually used on an engine than what they test on an ISO 5011 test setup. For all we know, it's also possible that air "pulsations' across the media might make it less efficient by making it shed some already captured debris. Only some very controlled ISO/SAE type testing can show what's going on, not some "theory" in someone's head or tests done in someone's garage.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Only place that gauze air filters "magically" become "way more efficient" with air pulsations, and YouTube is more valid than science and engineering.

 

[TiGeo]

Yes; if the theory of "pulse" had any basis in reality, we'd see LOWER silicon results on UOAs with oiled filters, correct? Not the ubiquitous higher silicon on every UOA that the owner admits to having a K&N on?

I've not seen this ubiquitous higher Si in UOAs that gets tossed around here. Where is this? All of my UOAs don't have this issue and I run K&Ns in all of my vehicles. The only elevated Si I've had in UOAs are from repairs (sealer in areas with oil) or HPL oil which has ~10ppm virgin. I saw one high Si example here at some point used as an example of "K&Ns give high Si in UOAs" by someone that admitted that the filter was neglected and the airbox lid wasn't on tight. @dnewton3 had a UOA posted showing high Si with a paper filter with the explanation that this was normal because it needed some dirt loading to filter correctly...never seen that in any of my cars with K&Ns.