Design difference between 4cyl engines from America vs Japan

[ram_man]

So we all know Honda and Toyota engines specifically are usually very reliable and long lived. What is the difference between them and the American 4cyl engines.
We can’t speak on the new engines since they haven’t been around long enough.
But some examples would be
The dodge neon 2.0 sohc this engine seems similarly designed to a Honda engine. Simple sohc timing belt engine.
The ford 2.0 duratec was a very decent engine as far as I’m aware. The 2.2 ecotec was also ok , right? I remember a weird water pump / thermostat location and the weak timing chains on those.
So maybe not as decent as the first 2 engine’s mentioned. I am curious as to what are the actual design differences to make the Honda/Toyota engines better?
The materials used are similar right? I just wonder where the big difference is. Thoughts? Opinions?

 

[Silver]

I think the biggest difference in longevity is how they're driven and maintained by their target demographic. I've always believed this in regards to foreign versus domestic in general.

 

[Cujet]

Metallurgy is always a factor, coupled with design. For many years, Honda used pistons made by "Art". They were cast pistons, cast and machined with extreme precision and of an alloy with less than 90% aluminum, along with a very high silicon content. This reduced the rate of expansion. Honda and Art also knew that the smaller the diameter, the lower the true expansion. They also ensured that each piston was exactly the same weight.

They chose hard chrome faced piston rings, often made of carbon steel instead of cast iron. Art moved the ring lands up on the piston for better heat transfer, along with a higher and offset piston pin to reduce skirt loading.

The result was an engine that did not burn oil, did not wear rapidly, did not experience excessive start up wear, and could take extensive high load, high RPM use without distress. They produced a "refined" product, due to the excellent heat transfer properties, low rates of expansion and hard chrome steel rings.

Now, apply that design excellence to every internal part, and the result is self evident. The Japanese really did build better "pedestrian" engines for a very long time.

Contrast that with Hyundai, who continues to have engine problems, despite the apparently identical designs. All is not what it seems.

 

[wag123]

IMO four things... 1. corporate bean counters purchasing component parts from sketchy suppliers for the lowest possible price, 2. design-to-a-lower-cost engineering shortcuts, 3. manufacturing execution, and 4. basic quality control.
A good illustration of the above is the Ford Duratec 2.0, also known as the Mazda L engine. Built by Mazda in Japan, this engine has a reputation for world-class reliability and durability, built by Ford in Mexico it is still a good engine, but not nearly as good as the same engine built by Mazda.

 

[IndyIan]

I think the Neon 2.0/2.4 was a Mitsubishi design or based on it? The 2.0/2.3/2.5 duratec's were Mazda designed but ford stuck non-vvt heads on them and used non-forged cranks. I don't know much about eco tec's other than the 2.4 is a good swap into an old Miata, or RX-7. It seems Honda was the first to really tune up NA 4 cyl's, although I read GM's quad 4 in the 80's made good power but was harsh sounding and it disappeared quite quickly.
I've been in the Civic SiR with the 100hp/L 1.6 and its pretty entertaining, great sounds when VTAK kicks in yo! and 8500rpm is pretty neat, and I've thrashed an Accord Euro R around a track with its 100hp/L 2.2L which also had a nice Vtec switch over. In North America we don't have the tax on engine displacement that Japan has, so the N.A. manufacturers never bothered to tune up a 4 banger until recently. Now with the small turbo 4's being the ubiquitous engine I doubt there's much difference between any of the manufacturers 4 bangers?

 

[Hall]

If I'm not mistaken, Toyota, for example, is very conservative when it comes to engine design and changes. They tend to stick with what works for a long time in many cases. Boring ? Yes. Reliable ? Yes.

Honda does the same to a degree, I think, though they seem to make lots of variants. Their J-series 3.5L V6 has been around for a little over 20 years and used in what, 8-10 models across Honda and Acura's lines ? I can't even keep up with the 4-cylinders used in Civics (1.5, 1.6, 18L) and Accords (2.2, 2.3, 2.4L) but I presume they're mostly "updated" versions and not complete redesigns. Maybe they are though.

 

[Wrenchturner44]

Indylan is spot on regarding the Chrysler "World Engines" . Please see attached. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Gasoline_Engine

Mitsu, Hyundai, and Chrysler collaborated on the basic long block design but each designed and used there on cylinder head depending on application.

Domestic designed and made 4 cylinders also seemed to have "oversquare" designs, vs that of Asian "undersquare" designs. The GM Ecotec engines started off as Opel designs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Ecotec_engine They have proven to be good engines as long as they are maintained with timely oil changes. You are correct the timing chains, chain tensioners, and cam sensors are the weak links. Most of the Ecotecs that I have seen that didn't make it over 100k were poorly maintained.

Even the marquis Asian OEMS have had issues with their 4 cylinders; Toyota had a major oil burning issue due to poor oil ring retention designs, Honda, had an issue with head gaskets on first gen siamesed block designs. Mitsu and Chrysler also had head gasket issues with first gen versions of "World Engine" mainly in turbocharged applications.

One thing is for certain, I don't thing any OEM makes a perfect engine. Some come close (small block chevy, chrysler slant six), but they all have had issues.

 

[MParr]

The old Ford 2300cc was hard to beat. Just how many compressors welders, cars, and other industrial equipment did those things go in?

 

[wpod]

Quality.

 

[JMJNet]

Quality.

This.
Specifically, the quality control methodology and specification that is used in the QC process.
In quality terms, the 6 sigma in Japan mfg is a lot less wider than the 6 sigma in US mfg.
Both are 6 sigma but the spec are different.

 

[Andrew1972]

Quality.

Engineering

 

[dishdude]

A lot of factors go into this. We can cherry pick great engines and turkeys from each manufacturer. How they're driven and maintained is also a huge contributor. I would expect the folks around here to dive more into specific engines than generalities based on continent or country of origin.

 

[HonorAndHonesty]

I think the biggest difference in longevity is how they're driven and maintained by their target demographic. I've always believed this in regards to foreign versus domestic in general.

Ive seen plenty of late 80s-early 90s corollas and camrys that had minimal maintenance, gas and go, change the oil every now and then and they would rack up 200-300k despite being abused. The good thing with the corollas vs say a honda of that period is they had non interference engines so if the original belt did break at 200k you would put a new belt on and be good to go.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Domestic 4 bangers were always garbage. Everyone I knew who had one was always loud, unrefined, smoked, and knocked. Where the domestics shine is the V8.

 

[dishdude]

Domestic 4 bangers were always garbage. Everyone I knew who had one was always loud, unrefined, smoked, and knocked. Where the domestics shine is the V8.

They might have been loud and unrefined, but they rarely smoked.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Indylan is spot on regarding the Chrysler "World Engines" . Please see attached. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Gasoline_Engine

Mitsu, Hyundai, and Chrysler collaborated on the basic long block design but each designed and used there on cylinder head depending on application.

Domestic designed and made 4 cylinders also seemed to have "oversquare" designs, vs that of Asian "undersquare" designs. The GM Ecotec engines started off as Opel designs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Ecotec_engine They have proven to be good engines as long as they are maintained with timely oil changes. You are correct the timing chains, chain tensioners, and cam sensors are the weak links. Most of the Ecotecs that I have seen that didn't make it over 100k were poorly maintained.

Even the marquis Asian OEMS have had issues with their 4 cylinders; Toyota had a major oil burning issue due to poor oil ring retention designs, Honda, had an issue with head gaskets on first gen siamesed block designs. Mitsu and Chrysler also had head gasket issues with first gen versions of "World Engine" mainly in turbocharged applications.

One thing is for certain, I don't thing any OEM makes a perfect engine. Some come close (small block chevy, chrysler slant six), but they all have had issues.

The 2.0/2.4 in the Neon , PT Cruiser, Wrangler, Grand Caravan and Liberty is a completely different engine than the "World" 2.4 that is in Mitsu, Chrysler and Hyundai products.

 

[Lyman]

When I was shopping for a commuter I opted for the Escape with the 2.5 as it is a proven engine with a great track record. So far so good. I just turned over 100k miles with no issues.

 

[Nick1994]

American car engines are loose, imagine shooting pool with a rope. Or throwing a hotdog down a hallway. That’s the compression.

 

[clinebarger]

I think the Neon 2.0/2.4 was a Mitsubishi design or based on it? The 2.0/2.3/2.5 duratec's were Mazda designed but ford stuck non-vvt heads on them and used non-forged cranks. I don't know much about eco tec's other than the 2.4 is a good swap into an old Miata, or RX-7. It seems Honda was the first to really tune up NA 4 cyl's, although I read GM's quad 4 in the 80's made good power but was harsh sounding and it disappeared quite quickly.
I've been in the Civic SiR with the 100hp/L 1.6 and its pretty entertaining, great sounds when VTAK kicks in yo! and 8500rpm is pretty neat, and I've thrashed an Accord Euro R around a track with its 100hp/L 2.2L which also had a nice Vtec switch over. In North America we don't have the tax on engine displacement that Japan has, so the N.A. manufacturers never bothered to tune up a 4 banger until recently. Now with the small turbo 4's being the ubiquitous engine I doubt there's much difference between any of the manufacturers 4 bangers?

The HO Quad 4 was one of the hottest NA 4 cylinders when it came out, 180 hp out of a 2.3L in 1989 is quite impressive. They certainly had their issues though.

 

[madeej11]

Domestic 4 bangers were always garbage. Everyone I knew who had one was always loud, unrefined, smoked, and knocked. Where the domestics shine is the V8.

Yes but V8's are easy.