Toyota's new electric oil pump.

[Bill7]

I was reviewing the new/almost new Toyota car lineup (Camry's, Siennas, etc).
They are spec-ed for 0W-16 and come with an electric oil pump.
I watched a youtube video by the Car Care Nut (He is a Toyota Master Technician mechanic who works at a Toyota dealer in Chicago).

He described the Toyota electric oil pump as being programmed to keep the OW-16 oil pressure as low as possible for fuel efficiency.
The example he used was that it would keep the oil pressure at only 10 PSI until the car got up to 3,000 RPMs, and then it would go to 40 PSI
and stay at 40 PSI while the car is > 3,000 RPMs.

The concern I have is that this approach is basically starving the engine of oil lubrication for RPM's < 3,000.
For those of us who like to keep their cars for 10 to 15 years and take them to 200k miles, concern would be the long term impact
of 10 PSI oil pressure for most of the driving. Wear on the piston rings, camshaft, timing chain, etc could accumulate
over the years and turn these cars into severe oil burners.

Even if you decided to use 0W-20 for it's higher HTHS = 2.6 to have less engine wear instead of 0W-16 (HTHS = 2.3),
you would still be faced with that electric oil pump keeping oil pressure very low.

I think about an overloaded Toyota Sienna with 8 heavy passengers + luggage going on a long trip going up mountain roads
in 100 degree weather with the AC with this oil pump limiting PSI to 10 and with 0W-16 with HTHS = 2.3 and asking myself
if I really want to own a car like this. Low oil pressure is not good for engine longevity.

I know everyone will reply saying trust the Toyota engineers, they know more than we do, and you might be right.
But it is your money, you can choose to buy a car without these design changes and not have to worry about it.

 

[Shel_B]

I was reviewing the new/almost new Toyota car lineup (Camry's, Siennas, etc).
They are spec-ed for 0W-16 and come with an electric oil pump.
I watched a youtube video by the Car Care Nut (He is a Toyota Master Technician mechanic who works at a Toyota dealer in Chicago).

He described the Toyota electric oil pump as being programmed to keep the OW-16 oil pressure as low as possible for fuel efficiency.
The example he used was that it would keep the oil pressure at only 10 PSI until the car got up to 3,000 RPMs, and then it would go to 40 PSI
and stay at 40 PSI while the car is > 3,000 RPMS.

The concern I have is that this approach is basically starving the engine of oil lubrication for RPM's < 3,000.
For those of us who like to keep their cars for 10 to 15 years and take them to 200k miles, concern would be the long term impact
of 10 PSI oil pressure for most of the driving. Wear on the piston rings, camshaft, timing chain, etc could accumulate
over the years and turn these cars in severe oil burners.

Even if you decided to use 0W-20 for it's higher HTHS = 2.6 to have less engine wear instead of 0W-16 (HTHS = 2.3),
you would still be faced with that electric oil pump keeping oil pressure very low.

I think about an overloaded Toyota Sienna with 8 heavy passengers + luggage going on a long trip going up mountain roads
in 100 degree weather with the AC with this oil pump limiting PSI to 10 and with 0W-16 with HTHS = 2.3 and asking myself
if I really want to own a car like this. Low oil pressure is not good for engine longevity.

I know everyone will reply saying trust the Toyota engineers, they know more than we do, and you might be right.
But it is your money, you can choose to buy a car without these design changes and not have to worry about it.

How did you conclude that this is a problem? It's my understanding (and I'm sure the experts will correct me if I'm wrong) that even before these electric oil pumps Toyota was using low oil pressure at lower RPMs. I recall 4 - 4.5lbs at idle for the 2AR-FE engine.

 

[PimTac]

I think about an overloaded Toyota Sienna with 8 heavy passengers + luggage going on a long trip going up mountain roads
in 100 degree weather with the AC with this oil pump limiting PSI to 10 and with 0W-16 with HTHS = 2.3 and asking myself
if I really want to own a car like this. Low oil pressure is not good for engine longevity.

You forgot the trailer being towed behind .

It hasn’t been a problem yet.

 

[Bill7]

I was not aware of that lower oil pressure in the older 2AR-FE engine - you might be right. Lower oil pressure can't be good for engine longevity.
I guess I'm spoiled by seeing all those 1990's Toyota Previa's on Craigslist with 300,000 miles and wondering if that kind of durability is a thing of the past.

 

[Shel_B]

I was not aware of that lower oil pressure in the older 2AR-FE engine - you might be right. Lower oil pressure can't be good for engine longevity.
I guess I'm spoiled by seeing all those 1990's Toyota Previa's on Craigslist with 300,000 miles and wondering if that kind of durability is a thing of the past.

Oil Pressure Vs Flow

How Oil Pressure Vs Flow works. Learn more about Oil Pressure Vs Flow

www.boosttown.com

 

[slacktide_bitog]

That's ok because the car will rust before the oil pump becomes a problem

 

[OVERKILL]

Oil Pressure Vs Flow

How Oil Pressure Vs Flow works. Learn more about Oil Pressure Vs Flow

www.boosttown.com

As @ZeeOSix has written about like 300 times now, a positive displacement pump, not on the relief, flows the same volume of oil at a given RPM regardless of what observed pressure is.

 

[OVERKILL]

I was reviewing the new/almost new Toyota car lineup (Camry's, Siennas, etc).
They are spec-ed for 0W-16 and come with an electric oil pump.
I watched a youtube video by the Car Care Nut (He is a Toyota Master Technician mechanic who works at a Toyota dealer in Chicago).

He described the Toyota electric oil pump as being programmed to keep the OW-16 oil pressure as low as possible for fuel efficiency.
The example he used was that it would keep the oil pressure at only 10 PSI until the car got up to 3,000 RPMs, and then it would go to 40 PSI
and stay at 40 PSI while the car is > 3,000 RPMs.

The concern I have is that this approach is basically starving the engine of oil lubrication for RPM's < 3,000.
For those of us who like to keep their cars for 10 to 15 years and take them to 200k miles, concern would be the long term impact
of 10 PSI oil pressure for most of the driving. Wear on the piston rings, camshaft, timing chain, etc could accumulate
over the years and turn these cars into severe oil burners.

Even if you decided to use 0W-20 for it's higher HTHS = 2.6 to have less engine wear instead of 0W-16 (HTHS = 2.3),
you would still be faced with that electric oil pump keeping oil pressure very low.

I think about an overloaded Toyota Sienna with 8 heavy passengers + luggage going on a long trip going up mountain roads
in 100 degree weather with the AC with this oil pump limiting PSI to 10 and with 0W-16 with HTHS = 2.3 and asking myself
if I really want to own a car like this. Low oil pressure is not good for engine longevity.

I know everyone will reply saying trust the Toyota engineers, they know more than we do, and you might be right.
But it is your money, you can choose to buy a car without these design changes and not have to worry about it.

Do you have any specifics on this electric pump? Is the pump itself actually electric, or is it just an electronically controlled pump, that reduces pressure at higher RPM to reduce pumping losses like other marques are using?

 

[JMJNet]

I am not surprise that the Toyota engineers have addressed OP's concerns in the design of the engine.
I suspect that those pumps are more efficient also.
So, with less pressure, it can probably have a higher flow rate.

However, only time will tell.

 

[OVERKILL]

So, with less pressure, it can probably have a higher flow rate.

No, it would be the other way around.

Oil pressure is simply an artifact of resistance to flow. That is, what we observe as oil pressure is the byproduct of there being resistance to oil being forced through the galleries, orifices...etc. Less pressure is the result of either opening those things up, or a reduction in the volume of oil we are trying to shove through them.

 

[PimTac]

I wonder if this electric pump kicks on a millisecond before the engine starts during the hybrid drive cycle?

 

[Bill_W]

I wonder if this electric pump kicks on a millisecond before the engine starts during the hybrid drive cycle?

As soon as the start button hits. Electric is instant torque and faster the engine RPM.

 

[Silver]

The example he used was that it would keep the oil pressure at only 10 PSI until the car got up to 3,000 RPMs, and then it would go to 40 PSI
and stay at 40 PSI while the car is > 3,000 RPMs.

So for some reason, the ideal psi is 10, until 3k rpm's, then it is 40. No 20, 30, etc. Graph that and tell me if it makes sense. I know I'm not an engineer, but I've also never designed something that was recalled, so there's that.

 

[K.Aoi]

So for some reason, the ideal psi is 10, until 3k rpm's, then it is 40. No 20, 30, etc. Graph that and tell me if it makes sense. I know I'm not an engineer, but I've also never designed something that was recalled, so there's that.

This is common. The variable oil pump VW uses in the Taos/Jetta operates similarly. I forget the specific pressures but at lower speeds it's lower PSI and once it hits a certain torque output (as calculated by the ECM) or RPM it kicks up to another level, nothing in between. And the pump can vary the output as needed to maintain that pressure no matter what the RPM is.

 

[Silver]

This is common. The variable oil pump VW uses in the Taos/Jetta operates similarly. I forget the specific pressures but at lower speeds it's lower PSI and once it hits a certain torque output (as calculated by the ECM) or RPM it kicks up to another level, nothing in between. And the pump can vary the output as needed to maintain that pressure no matter what the RPM is.

Hmm... so variable flow at same pressure within rpm windows?

 

[K.Aoi]

Hmm... so variable flow at same pressure within rpm windows?

Exactly, it's not "fixed flow no matter the RPM" it's "the pump varies flow to maintain a specified pressure no matter the RPM"

 

[ZeeOSix]

I was reviewing the new/almost new Toyota car lineup (Camry's, Siennas, etc).
They are spec-ed for 0W-16 and come with an electric oil pump.
I watched a youtube video by the Car Care Nut (He is a Toyota Master Technician mechanic who works at a Toyota dealer in Chicago).

Got a link to that video?

I'm sure Toyota engineers have designed the oil pump to give adequate lubrication to the entire oiling system. They just don't "slap on" a pump and hope it works well enough to provide oil flow to all parts of the engine. But as they always say ... "time will tell" as the car gets real world usage.

 

[ATex7239]

I cannot speak to Toyota’s engineering but I can speak to my experiences.

Last summer we drove the Sienna Hybrid to Florida and back without issue. It extremely hot and the van was fully loaded up with 6 people plus coolers and luggage. The entire trip was all highway speed (ie, low rpm.) And there was a major accident in the Florida panhandle which left us idling on the hot summer asphalt for hours with AC on full blast. If the engine wasn’t getting proper lubrication or the oil wasn’t exchanging the heat sufficiently then it would have overheated. That was a year and over 25,000 miles ago. No oil consumption, no overheating, no issues.

I’m going start doing regular UOA’s on the van to see how things hold up over time with 0w16. Time will tell how well the engine holds up. My initial guesstimate is that on paper its a “big deal”, but in the real world it will to be much ado about nothing.

 

[JavierH19]

I've yet to hear of oiling issues or any tsb's related to any oiling concerns caused by the low pressure pump on these Toyotas. But then again the 2022 camry uk om states to use anywhere from 0w-16 to 5w-30 so if someone was concerned about engine longevity they could always go thicker.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Exactly, it's not "fixed flow no matter the RPM" it's "the pump varies flow to maintain a specified pressure no matter the RPM"

To add ... that means if the oil pressure is kept constant as the RPM increases (say from idle to 3000 RPM), then the pump output flow volume must decrease as engine RPM increases. Just the opposite of the old fashioned non-variable oil pump.

If the oil pressure suddenly pops up from 10 PSI to 40 PSI at 3000+ RPM, then the oil pump suddenly switched to a much higher volume output.