Cold weather oil

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Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
I use Castrol 0W40 with a pour point of -60C.
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https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/CE3FF44E27742B4A80257A6F00311A86/$File/BPXE-8XTLDK.pdf


That's the 2012 PDS.

I'm using the same oil BTW in Ms. Britches due to its PAO content and ease of availability on sale at CT for a bargain
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This is apparently the current 2017 PDS:
Castrol EDGE

Which doesn't give a real Pour Point, just a "Max" like everything else on the sheet.

Previous PDS from 2014:
Castrol EDGE 0w-40 A3/B4

Shows a Pour Point of -50C, but everything else looks the same as your older PDS
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3
There are very, very, very few BITOGers that actually live in a place that really "needs" the benefits of a premium syn lube for cold weather. Very few; despite all the BITOG fear mongering.

If you don't live where it ROUTINELY gets uber-stupid-cold (-20F on a daily basis), you're diluting yourself with unfounded bias. Where I live, it once got down to -37F. I had to go to work that day. The truck moaned and groaned a bit until it warmed up fully. But after a few days that cold snap was over, and everything was fine. Never had an engine problem in the many years AFTER that frigid exposure. The "normal" low in my area is +18. It will get down to 0F every single year where I live, a few days intermittently throughout the winter season.
For reference, I run dino 5w-20 and 5w-30 in various gas engines, and every year my UOAs (season to season) show no ill effects of the "cold" or "heat".

If your daily average low is -10F or lower, you can at least start to consider if syns are appropriate for your area. If not, then just get over yourself and worry about something else.


I’d like to add to this. Even if you do live in those places like I do, you’ll see that PLENTY of people have vehicles with 200k in them that have always just used 5w30 Dino and don’t care about oil and yet haven’t had any problems. I regularly see 30 year oil Subaru’s and Toyota truck up here with 200k miles, rust buckets, driving in Interior Alaska and you think they have Amsoil 0w in the sump? Nope

Most use a block heater and even then on an old beater they may not use it all the time. I use my block heater and when I dont or can’t, I’ve noticed that oil pressure comes up faster with synthetic but I’m not convinced it’s really enough faster to translate to less wear.

Bottom line is, I live somewhere that sees extreme negative temps routes newly and people on here in Missouri and Texas seem to be more concerned way more than local people here do for no reason.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I had my C and F mixed up, but you got the point.
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The chart if correct as written is meaningless for the grades I listed in cold weather on most parts of the planet. Or use any of the oils I mentioned and sleep well in the cold.
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That was a good pick-up...
Here's where I lifted the latest charts from.

Quote:
Pour Point and Melting Point

The pour point was determined by the ASTM D-97 method. The melting point obtained by maintaining the product 3-6C below it's pour point, characterised the temperature from which the product recommenced to flow when progressively warmed up.
The Pour points and melting points are shown. Poor correlation of either is obtained with both the rocker arm oiling time and the time taken to develop oil pressure three bars.


Thus my comments in all of the -40C 5W "flow tests" that get posted on BITOG as proof of something.

All pour point tells you is how easily the oil gets out of the bottle if you are changing it at -40C...not how it works in your engine.

Something to add to the discussion is that it's ALLOWED to slip one "W" grade in the standardised testing. That's not saying that it will, but if you do NEED the oil to be a 0W, or 5W (and DNewton's post is extremely good), pick on that's well and truly in the MRV grade that you need.

DNewton's post also illustrates why "nothing blew up" with Frankenbrews. The literature, and conversations offline with people like BobbyDavro illustrate that the issues, if they occuer, are at the "W" end of the scale, PPD and VII interactions.

If you never go so cold that you need your 0W frankenbrew to be a 0W...then nothing will blow up.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
There are very, very, very few BITOGers that actually live in a place that really "needs" the benefits of a premium syn lube for cold weather. Very few; despite all the BITOG fear mongering.

If you don't live where it ROUTINELY gets uber-stupid-cold (-20F on a daily basis), you're diluting yourself with unfounded bias. Where I live, it once got down to -37F. I had to go to work that day. The truck moaned and groaned a bit until it warmed up fully. But after a few days that cold snap was over, and everything was fine. Never had an engine problem in the many years AFTER that frigid exposure. The "normal" low in my area is +18. It will get down to 0F every single year where I live, a few days intermittently throughout the winter season.
For reference, I run dino 5w-20 and 5w-30 in various gas engines, and every year my UOAs (season to season) show no ill effects of the "cold" or "heat".

If your daily average low is -10F or lower, you can at least start to consider if syns are appropriate for your area. If not, then just get over yourself and worry about something else.



Well said. Below is a video at more realistic temperatures to illustrate your point. Even still, we haven't had temps that low last year, or probably the year before, in the Toronto area.
 
Originally Posted By: ndfergy
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
There are very, very, very few BITOGers that actually live in a place that really "needs" the benefits of a premium syn lube for cold weather. Very few; despite all the BITOG fear mongering.

If you don't live where it ROUTINELY gets uber-stupid-cold (-20F on a daily basis), you're diluting yourself with unfounded bias. Where I live, it once got down to -37F. I had to go to work that day. The truck moaned and groaned a bit until it warmed up fully. But after a few days that cold snap was over, and everything was fine. Never had an engine problem in the many years AFTER that frigid exposure. The "normal" low in my area is +18. It will get down to 0F every single year where I live, a few days intermittently throughout the winter season.
For reference, I run dino 5w-20 and 5w-30 in various gas engines, and every year my UOAs (season to season) show no ill effects of the "cold" or "heat".

If your daily average low is -10F or lower, you can at least start to consider if syns are appropriate for your area. If not, then just get over yourself and worry about something else.



Well said. Below is a video at more realistic temperatures to illustrate your point. Even still, we haven't had temps that low last year, or probably the year before, in the Toronto area.





The CCS viscosity temp is generally a good guideline for W rating selection.

A 0w-xx is rated at -35C
A 5w-xx is rated at -30C
A 10w-xx is rated at -25C

Coldest I've seen so far this year was today's temp of -20C (-6F), which is still within the range for all of the grades above, but the winter is of course just beginning. We do periodically see temps approaching and below -30C during winter (Toronto is generally a bit warmer) and given that an oil is allowed to slip a W-rating during service, I wouldn't want to use a 5w-xx under those conditions when I can get a 0w-xx for the same price.

It doesn't mean it won't pump (MRV is tested another 5C lower than CCS) but it does mean that there is a potential impact on cranking speed.
 
A 5W30 conventional still has to pass the 5WXX tests, just like a synthetic...odds are it won't beat the requirements by much, but many 5W30 synthetics are pretty close to the edge, too. Don't believe I have seen a conventional 0WXX.
Honestly, the only time I can remember that I just couldn't get my car started it was about 35F...the temperature dropped very abruptly one fall day and exposed that my battery was shot. I'm sure my car had conventional 5W30 in it at the time, but that point is moot because my car had another problem that just had to be addressed...would have been nice if it had not happened when I was 50 miles from home, but oh well.

But, there have been plenty of times when I have been up skiing when my car cranked very slowly on even a fresh battery and then shook and ran poorly for a good while...I don't like asking my car to move when it is seemingly suffering like that and I ended up waiting a bit longer instead of driving to the mountain right away and maybe parking just a bit closer to the lodge. Generally I think it's better to warm up the car by moving instead of idling it, but not at those times. I like to look out for 5W30s that have good cold performance test results for that grade now and I feel like my coldest starts go better as a result, just my impression and certainly an unproven one. I might try a 0W30 for my next change just for the heck of it, haven't decided yet (about 300 miles to go)...might slap a new battery in it soon, too, we'll see.
 
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Most people there use block heaters... So, obviously they must care a bit about the low temps seen there. Otherwise... No block heater would even be used. I wonder how well a 5w30 dino would do in say Wiseman or Arctic Village where it gets down to -45°C. No block heater, not inside a garage, unaided, and out in that kind of cold for 12 hours plus.
 
Yeah, it's that big 19,000 sq.km pond in my neck of the woods that keeps our temperatures in check. It was -16C this morning @ Pearson; the coldest it's been since Feb '16. I could get away with 10w30 but it's smart to play it safe in the event of any extended cold snaps.
 
Originally Posted By: bbhero
Most people there use block heaters... So, obviously they must care a bit about the low temps seen there. Otherwise... No block heater would even be used. I wonder how well a 5w30 dino would do in say Wiseman or Arctic Village where it gets down to -45°C. No block heater, not inside a garage, unaided, and out in that kind of cold for 12 hours plus.


Most people here either have a block heater and dino oil , don't use a heater but use synthetic, or use a block heater and synthetic.

Very few run a straight 5w30 dino with no other assistance to get it started but there are some.
 
Well that makes perfect sense. In your other post you acted like people around there did not have a care in the world about running a 5w30... Which they wouldn't if the use a block heater etc. My point being was how well it would go running a 5w30 in -40°C or colder unaided, vehicle sat put in that cold for 12+ hours. Like you stated, some there do just that. But the obviously are in the minority. Likely the strong minority at that.

I do agree with you 100% about the people here in the contiguous US worry far too often about cold oil performance. Only in Montana Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota, Upper Wisconsin, Upper New York state, Vermont, Inland New Hampshire, and Maine away from the coast would have any times to be concerned with cold oil performance. And that's only a very small percentage of the time as compared to interior Alaska. If I lived in Fairfax, Vermont where I went to on vacation I would run a 0w30 in the winter. That place was 14 miles from the Canadian border and it can get quite cold up there at times.
 
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Originally Posted By: jayg
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
There are very, very, very few BITOGers that actually live in a place that really "needs" the benefits of a premium syn lube for cold weather. Very few; despite all the BITOG fear mongering.

If you don't live where it ROUTINELY gets uber-stupid-cold (-20F on a daily basis), you're diluting yourself with unfounded bias. Where I live, it once got down to -37F. I had to go to work that day. The truck moaned and groaned a bit until it warmed up fully. But after a few days that cold snap was over, and everything was fine. Never had an engine problem in the many years AFTER that frigid exposure. The "normal" low in my area is +18. It will get down to 0F every single year where I live, a few days intermittently throughout the winter season.
For reference, I run dino 5w-20 and 5w-30 in various gas engines, and every year my UOAs (season to season) show no ill effects of the "cold" or "heat".

If your daily average low is -10F or lower, you can at least start to consider if syns are appropriate for your area. If not, then just get over yourself and worry about something else.


I’d like to add to this. Even if you do live in those places like I do, you’ll see that PLENTY of people have vehicles with 200k in them that have always just used 5w30 Dino and don’t care about oil and yet haven’t had any problems. I regularly see 30 year oil Subaru’s and Toyota truck up here with 200k miles, rust buckets, driving in Interior Alaska and you think they have Amsoil 0w in the sump? Nope

Most use a block heater and even then on an old beater they may not use it all the time. I use my block heater and when I dont or can’t, I’ve noticed that oil pressure comes up faster with synthetic but I’m not convinced it’s really enough faster to translate to less wear.

Bottom line is, I live somewhere that sees extreme negative temps routes newly and people on here in Missouri and Texas seem to be more concerned way more than local people here do for no reason.

thumbsup2.gif
Excellent posts by both dnewton3 and jayg.
 
Should add another point or two to the discussion...

sae-j300-motor-oil-viscosities.jpg


See how the MRV is constant regardless of grade, at the test temperature...that's how easily the oil "falls" into the pickup tube, and is able to be "sucked" up the tube itself.

Note that the CCS, the Cold cranking simulator, which is the "startability" measure reduces with lower temperatures.

CCS is a high shear viscosity, representative of the crank spinning in the bearings.

The lower number at lower temperatures is because your battery isn't as capable, particularly after a couple of goes at it at those temperatures.

Why humans choose to live in even 10W locations escapes me.
 
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: Shannow
...

Why humans choose to live in even 10W locations escapes me.




Nuf ced!





I had to laugh at this. I remember my father coming home from working the graveyard shift in -30F temps. His pants were so frozen he stood them up in the corner. This was Oregon on the east side.
 
Originally Posted By: bbhero
Well that makes perfect sense. In your other post you acted like people around there did not have a care in the world about running a 5w30... Which they wouldn't if the use a block heater etc. My point being was how well it would go running a 5w30 in -40°C or colder unaided, vehicle sat put in that cold for 12+ hours. Like you stated, some there do just that. But the obviously are in the minority. Likely the strong minority at that.

I do agree with you 100% about the people here in the contiguous US worry far too often about cold oil performance. Only in Montana Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota, Upper Wisconsin, Upper New York state, Vermont, Inland New Hampshire, and Maine away from the coast would have any times to be concerned with cold oil performance. And that's only a very small percentage of the time as compared to interior Alaska. If I lived in Fairfax, Vermont where I went to on vacation I would run a 0w30 in the winter. That place was 14 miles from the Canadian border and it can get quite cold up there at times.


Well I did say in my original post that most had block heaters but also that's because they bought it with one. Most people even here can't be bothered to remember to plug it in all the time religiously like some of us do. Yet, they still drive on with no oil related failures.


Originally Posted By: Shannow
...

Why humans choose to live in even 10W locations escapes me.


It's not for everybody and I'm thankful for that.

141027-4M9509.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: jayg
Originally Posted By: bbhero
Well that makes perfect sense. In your other post you acted like people around there did not have a care in the world about running a 5w30... Which they wouldn't if the use a block heater etc. My point being was how well it would go running a 5w30 in -40°C or colder unaided, vehicle sat put in that cold for 12+ hours. Like you stated, some there do just that. But the obviously are in the minority. Likely the strong minority at that.

I do agree with you 100% about the people here in the contiguous US worry far too often about cold oil performance. Only in Montana Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota, Upper Wisconsin, Upper New York state, Vermont, Inland New Hampshire, and Maine away from the coast would have any times to be concerned with cold oil performance. And that's only a very small percentage of the time as compared to interior Alaska. If I lived in Fairfax, Vermont where I went to on vacation I would run a 0w30 in the winter. That place was 14 miles from the Canadian border and it can get quite cold up there at times.




Well I did say in my original post that most had block heaters but also that's because they bought it with one. Most people even here can't be bothered to remember to plug it in all the time religiously like some of us do. Yet, they still drive on with no oil related failures.


Originally Posted By: Shannow
...

Why humans choose to live in even 10W locations escapes me.


It's not for everybody and I'm thankful for that.

141027-4M9509.jpg





Alaska truly is God’s country. I spent 18 months out of Kodiak in the Coast Guard back in the seventies. We were all over the Gulf, the Chain and the Bering. It was an experience I’ll never forget.
 
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