Clickers, Frams, and E-cores, oh my (pics)
- Thread starter lubeowner
- Start date
- Status
Lets simplify this:
Clicker bypass Champion= torn media
Non-clicker Champion= Very isolated problems, seem to mainly be with the diesel filters though
Fram= Holes & torn media
Filters off of GM vehicles with block bypass= no problems3
Wix/Napa gold= No problems
Napa Silver= questionable
Purolator= No problems
Motorcraft (The Purolator built ones)= one of the best built filters for the money, period.
Especially the ones available with silicone ADBV
Clicker bypass Champion= torn media
Non-clicker Champion= Very isolated problems, seem to mainly be with the diesel filters though
Fram= Holes & torn media
Filters off of GM vehicles with block bypass= no problems3
Wix/Napa gold= No problems
Napa Silver= questionable
Purolator= No problems
Motorcraft (The Purolator built ones)= one of the best built filters for the money, period.
Especially the ones available with silicone ADBV
My local Napa dealer has two new oil filters cut at the base on his front counter.You can walk up to them and pull the can off and look at the guts.One is a Napa Gold the other a Fram...He loves the Fram because it sells alot of Golds for him...smart selling move me thinks
Buy the way did two oil changes to-day,a Jeep 4.0L running an oversized Napa Gold and an 05 Chev Colorado using an A.C.Delco..cut open both filters and they were beautiful inside.The guy with the Colorado wanted a Napa Gold installed because the A.C Delco was $14 (Can.) as compared to the Gold for $10 (Can.) which the Gold has a silicon ADV instead of the nitrile for the A.C. delco....and I told him they are pretty darn close when it comes to performance anyways.
[ March 18, 2005, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: Greaser ]
[ March 18, 2005, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: Greaser ]
Well a few bits and pieces.
First Champ hasn't changed hands multiple times recently. I worked there form 1982 to 1999. In that time they were sold once. Since leaving they've been sold once. But the people that they were sold to reorganized and now have a "group" name that Champ shows as their owners. UCI.
As for defending Champ..lol I suggest someone go lok up a thread where I said all filters were good enough that are made in the USA. As a representative of the Filter Manufacturers Council for a little over two years..having Fram, Baldwin, Donaldson, and some smaller filter companies no one in here cares about as my customers..It seems that some people think what they want. My posts are to point out area's where people are blaming filters for problems. I don't care what brand they are. Because I knew who builds what for who.
As for the clicker valve issue..suit yourselves.
I've pointed out before that Champ has invested between 10-50 million dollars on the engineering, design and manufacturing of that filter. Including the clicker valve. Including automotive fleet testing. And if it was such a poor design..Wix, Fram, Purolator or others would be out there with tech bulletins picking it apart. becaus eI can guarantee you they've tested it.
If lubeowner wants to send back filters all he has to do is call Champs toll free number. They will send him a filter retrieval kit. As per ISO 9000 lab procedures every filter sent back to the lab will be tested and an engineering service report sent to the one who sends the filter in along with a cover letter explaining the tests performed on the filter. It would be nice if they are not cut open. But if they are make sure you return all the parts. And don't mix Fram, Purolator, ,Wix or any others in the box. They know their own parts.
I'l give you an example of a filter sent back to the lab that I know of personally. It was from a quick lube that Champ private labels for. The complaint was the filter leaked, engine lost oil within 20 miles, and there was potential for engine damage.
The filter was returned to the lab. It was checked for proper part number for engine type. The gasket was checked to se if the correct gasket was there. The backplate and threads checked to see if there were any problems. Nothing was found at inital inspection and no other visual damage. The filter was then put on an impulse test machine. This simulates the starting of the engine. They send oil at rated flow into the filter, then stop, then again, then stop..and cycle 5,000 times. This tests the gasket sealing properly, the filter being able to withstand the flow and they look for leaks. If the filter doesn't leak..no warranty. This filter leaked the first pulse.
Leaked like a sieve under the seam.
Well somethings amiss. If you remember back to when I talked about every filter is checked for leaks after it's been assembled but before it's painted. This filter leaked so bad there is no way it would have got by the test equipment. So they put the filter under a high magnification.
After the filter is checked on the production line for leaks, it goes to be painted. Champ uses powdercoat electrostatic paint. So flakes of paint are sprayed onto the filter.
There were no flakes of paint in the area inside the filter where the leak occured. Which if the filter would have been built that way, there would have been.
What happened is someone took a tool and cut the filter in order to make it leak. Chances are the lube person forgot the drain plug and when the owner brought the car back because the low oil light came on, they knew what they had done.
The warranty was denied. The quick lube corporate office notified and the service report sent to corporate and the individual shop. Corporate did their own investigation and found that the lube store fessed up as to what happened. They paid the claim.
I would expect every filter company to do similar testing and also send out service reports.
Someone in here mentioned in another thread where Champ paid him for a failure. Champ wil pay when they screw up. Always have. And I was the warranty manager for 3 years for one of their brands. my name is on enough cover letters to customers.
So I have all the experience of what transpires and what doesn't. Champ never questioned when they needed to pay. Thats what insurance is for. but they won;t pay if it's not their fault. The biggest claim I personally saw was $40,000. And that was for a $12.00 filter.
------------------
As for coolant or water getting into the oil...if you don't want to belive it or you do not understand the relationship between the cooling system and how heat is dissapated, then fair enough.
Oil filter cellulose media is not treated to withstand much water or coolant in the oil. The resins in the media can withstand only so much before the media gets wavy or worse and turns to mush. And i've seen that, too.
It's nice the newer GM Dexcool that is supposed to last 5 years. A long as you follow their recommendations. I suggest you read up on it and what owners should and shouldn't do. About topping off with tap water that has mineral deposits or other solids. The recommendation is distilled water is the only thing to put into your cooling system if you need to top off. Or a premix of approved coolant ( which is mixed with distilled water).
And if you drive a big rig then you get into low silicate coolant, which is another issue by itself.
Whether you're talking propolyene or ethlyene glycol, long life five year coolant has it's own set of maintenace. And anyone who opts for recondition coolant is asking for trouble. Especialy those quick lubes who have a machine which takes your coolant and they put it back in your engine. All that does is strip out the floating solids ( Champ makes the filters for that machine, I know I sold them, they were my account at one time. Hello Wynns) And then they pour in some reinhibitor. It does nothing to remove the disolved solids. There are only three methods for doing that, that are approved by OEM's and that machine doesn't do any of them.
So yeah, I don't know much about coolant and it's effects on the oil filter.
First Champ hasn't changed hands multiple times recently. I worked there form 1982 to 1999. In that time they were sold once. Since leaving they've been sold once. But the people that they were sold to reorganized and now have a "group" name that Champ shows as their owners. UCI.
As for defending Champ..lol I suggest someone go lok up a thread where I said all filters were good enough that are made in the USA. As a representative of the Filter Manufacturers Council for a little over two years..having Fram, Baldwin, Donaldson, and some smaller filter companies no one in here cares about as my customers..It seems that some people think what they want. My posts are to point out area's where people are blaming filters for problems. I don't care what brand they are. Because I knew who builds what for who.
As for the clicker valve issue..suit yourselves.
I've pointed out before that Champ has invested between 10-50 million dollars on the engineering, design and manufacturing of that filter. Including the clicker valve. Including automotive fleet testing. And if it was such a poor design..Wix, Fram, Purolator or others would be out there with tech bulletins picking it apart. becaus eI can guarantee you they've tested it.
If lubeowner wants to send back filters all he has to do is call Champs toll free number. They will send him a filter retrieval kit. As per ISO 9000 lab procedures every filter sent back to the lab will be tested and an engineering service report sent to the one who sends the filter in along with a cover letter explaining the tests performed on the filter. It would be nice if they are not cut open. But if they are make sure you return all the parts. And don't mix Fram, Purolator, ,Wix or any others in the box. They know their own parts.
I'l give you an example of a filter sent back to the lab that I know of personally. It was from a quick lube that Champ private labels for. The complaint was the filter leaked, engine lost oil within 20 miles, and there was potential for engine damage.
The filter was returned to the lab. It was checked for proper part number for engine type. The gasket was checked to se if the correct gasket was there. The backplate and threads checked to see if there were any problems. Nothing was found at inital inspection and no other visual damage. The filter was then put on an impulse test machine. This simulates the starting of the engine. They send oil at rated flow into the filter, then stop, then again, then stop..and cycle 5,000 times. This tests the gasket sealing properly, the filter being able to withstand the flow and they look for leaks. If the filter doesn't leak..no warranty. This filter leaked the first pulse.
Well somethings amiss. If you remember back to when I talked about every filter is checked for leaks after it's been assembled but before it's painted. This filter leaked so bad there is no way it would have got by the test equipment. So they put the filter under a high magnification.
After the filter is checked on the production line for leaks, it goes to be painted. Champ uses powdercoat electrostatic paint. So flakes of paint are sprayed onto the filter.
There were no flakes of paint in the area inside the filter where the leak occured. Which if the filter would have been built that way, there would have been.
What happened is someone took a tool and cut the filter in order to make it leak. Chances are the lube person forgot the drain plug and when the owner brought the car back because the low oil light came on, they knew what they had done.
The warranty was denied. The quick lube corporate office notified and the service report sent to corporate and the individual shop. Corporate did their own investigation and found that the lube store fessed up as to what happened. They paid the claim.
I would expect every filter company to do similar testing and also send out service reports.
Someone in here mentioned in another thread where Champ paid him for a failure. Champ wil pay when they screw up. Always have. And I was the warranty manager for 3 years for one of their brands. my name is on enough cover letters to customers.
------------------
As for coolant or water getting into the oil...if you don't want to belive it or you do not understand the relationship between the cooling system and how heat is dissapated, then fair enough.
Oil filter cellulose media is not treated to withstand much water or coolant in the oil. The resins in the media can withstand only so much before the media gets wavy or worse and turns to mush. And i've seen that, too.
It's nice the newer GM Dexcool that is supposed to last 5 years. A long as you follow their recommendations. I suggest you read up on it and what owners should and shouldn't do. About topping off with tap water that has mineral deposits or other solids. The recommendation is distilled water is the only thing to put into your cooling system if you need to top off. Or a premix of approved coolant ( which is mixed with distilled water).
And if you drive a big rig then you get into low silicate coolant, which is another issue by itself.
Whether you're talking propolyene or ethlyene glycol, long life five year coolant has it's own set of maintenace. And anyone who opts for recondition coolant is asking for trouble. Especialy those quick lubes who have a machine which takes your coolant and they put it back in your engine. All that does is strip out the floating solids ( Champ makes the filters for that machine, I know I sold them, they were my account at one time. Hello Wynns) And then they pour in some reinhibitor. It does nothing to remove the disolved solids. There are only three methods for doing that, that are approved by OEM's and that machine doesn't do any of them.
So yeah, I don't know much about coolant and it's effects on the oil filter.
I guess after cutting open over 300 filters my scientific conclusion that nearly every clicker has some sort of damage is an anomaly. I am facing a huge PITA potentially converting my whole oil filter line over to something else, but I am not letting my reputation ride on some clicker that obviously causes the media to fail, so for those that believe I secretly want the clicker filters to fail nothing is further from the truth.
For the neglected vehicle theorists, I don't see Mobil 1 requesting that the oil filters be changed every 3000 miles with their new 5000, 7500, and 15000 mile oils in their commercials. A good filter with good oil will last through a long interval. Blaming neglect for crappy filter failures makes no sense. If I had pictures of Purolators and Wix's blown to **** I would post them, but there simply arent any. As I stated before I DO NO CARE WHAT COMPANY MAKES THE BEST FILTER. Further I am not going to argue back and forth over the design, testing, theory of operation, etc. of the clicker. I know what I see and that is good enough for me to make my conclusions. If you don't want to believe me that is fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But I can guarantee for every pic you send me of an intact clicker filter I can send you 5 pics of failed ones. I am simply trying to provide you guys with real world information from someone who does 15,000 oil changes a year.
As for the coolant causing the failures, it is hard to believe that brand new cars leak that much coolant into the oil. They must only leak when a clicker filter is installed.
I would also like to think filter manufacturers build some margin of error into their filters. Yes, sometimes oil changes are neglected but does that mean that at 3001 miles the filter should self destruct.
How can a filter that is cut in half with the media all blown to sh*t be tested on a machine? The failures of media can not be known unless looked at. Why would someone send in a filter to be tested if there were no leaks or seemingly no problems? I am well aware of the policies and procedures of the filter manufacturers and their testing of supposed leaky filters, but how can media be examined without cutting the filter open?
I will continue this study and try to post more pics when possible. If anyone wants pics, opinions, etc. of a particular filter please PM me.
For the neglected vehicle theorists, I don't see Mobil 1 requesting that the oil filters be changed every 3000 miles with their new 5000, 7500, and 15000 mile oils in their commercials. A good filter with good oil will last through a long interval. Blaming neglect for crappy filter failures makes no sense. If I had pictures of Purolators and Wix's blown to **** I would post them, but there simply arent any. As I stated before I DO NO CARE WHAT COMPANY MAKES THE BEST FILTER. Further I am not going to argue back and forth over the design, testing, theory of operation, etc. of the clicker. I know what I see and that is good enough for me to make my conclusions. If you don't want to believe me that is fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But I can guarantee for every pic you send me of an intact clicker filter I can send you 5 pics of failed ones. I am simply trying to provide you guys with real world information from someone who does 15,000 oil changes a year.
As for the coolant causing the failures, it is hard to believe that brand new cars leak that much coolant into the oil. They must only leak when a clicker filter is installed.
I would also like to think filter manufacturers build some margin of error into their filters. Yes, sometimes oil changes are neglected but does that mean that at 3001 miles the filter should self destruct.
How can a filter that is cut in half with the media all blown to sh*t be tested on a machine? The failures of media can not be known unless looked at. Why would someone send in a filter to be tested if there were no leaks or seemingly no problems? I am well aware of the policies and procedures of the filter manufacturers and their testing of supposed leaky filters, but how can media be examined without cutting the filter open?
I will continue this study and try to post more pics when possible. If anyone wants pics, opinions, etc. of a particular filter please PM me.
Filter Guy,
Keep posting your 'technical' knowledge of oil filters. I like the way you explain the process of how Champion Labs filters are made and tested.
[ March 19, 2005, 01:31 AM: Message edited by: LT4 Vette ]
Keep posting your 'technical' knowledge of oil filters. I like the way you explain the process of how Champion Labs filters are made and tested.
[ March 19, 2005, 01:31 AM: Message edited by: LT4 Vette ]
I cut apart the 8000 mile MileGuard filter from the '97 Honda Del Sol.
The ADBV was still flexible.
The media was a bit wavy but was still attached to the cardboard endcaps. There were no holes in the media that I could see.
The ADBV was still flexible.
The media was a bit wavy but was still attached to the cardboard endcaps. There were no holes in the media that I could see.
Lubeowner..
I'm glad your "scientific" study is comprehensive enough for you to determine conclusively that the only problem with filter construction is the clicker valve.
Maybe you can explain what test equipment, SAE tests you ran to help you along with your anlysis.
Like i've mentioned before, Champ has done extensive testing. All well and good some in here might say but what about what lubeowner is seeing when he's cut open filters. And Champ hasn't cut filters open? Champ hasn't deliberately had filters run 5,000 miles or 7,000 miles or longer between oil changes to see the effects on the filter. Both on new and "older" cars.
Champ will want to know everything about the service conditions of the filter when it's returned. How many miles on the vehicle and miles between oil changes. And brand of oil.
Lubeowner, you've mentioned that those filters are coming off "newer" cars. You have yet to document how many miles are on the vehicle or miles between oil changes. Aren't these basic facts?
You may not be able to see what good it is to Champ to send back the pieces of the filter but I bet you never thought they could take the internal componenets and re-can them to make a filter to test the media and clicker valve. As long as you don't cut the media off the element, they can test the parts seperate or as a unit.
How do you think they test their by-pass valves before production to see if they meet specs? It is part of their ISO 9000 procedures . As Champ stamps out their own components, they have to test them before final construction. Not only do they pressure test every filter, each prodcution run has complete filters removed from the production lines for further tests. Including destructive tests. Where filters are deliberately over pressurized.
Lubeowner..would you say you're the only lube owner in the country who cuts filters open? Would you say that you're the only one who keeps quiet about what you see. Or do you think that others may have communicated their concerns to their parent company or Champ directly?
Do you think that the private label accounts that Champ have would stand for poor quality products being private labelled in their name?
Do you think that the clicker valve issue wouldn't become known to the corporate office and that corporate would investigate?
Or do you think they're all in collusion together to allow shoddy product to be labeled in their name. Do you think if the clicker valve is such poor design and will cause problems that the same corporate people aren't running to Fram, Purolator, or Wix to have their brand switched to their production lines.
Champ has consequences besides paying warranties on their own if as you think the design is poor don't they. And with what they've got invested in the E-core product it would be a double whammy should they lose private label accounts and they have to scrap the line in total because of the clicker valve wouldn't it.
So if you want a real scientific study..send it to the scientists. And if you think there will be shenanigans, then mark the filter or components in a manner that you know and request them to be sent back. Every cover letter from the warranty manager says you have 60 days to request the filter back.
I'm glad your "scientific" study is comprehensive enough for you to determine conclusively that the only problem with filter construction is the clicker valve.
Maybe you can explain what test equipment, SAE tests you ran to help you along with your anlysis.
Like i've mentioned before, Champ has done extensive testing. All well and good some in here might say but what about what lubeowner is seeing when he's cut open filters. And Champ hasn't cut filters open? Champ hasn't deliberately had filters run 5,000 miles or 7,000 miles or longer between oil changes to see the effects on the filter. Both on new and "older" cars.
Champ will want to know everything about the service conditions of the filter when it's returned. How many miles on the vehicle and miles between oil changes. And brand of oil.
Lubeowner, you've mentioned that those filters are coming off "newer" cars. You have yet to document how many miles are on the vehicle or miles between oil changes. Aren't these basic facts?
You may not be able to see what good it is to Champ to send back the pieces of the filter but I bet you never thought they could take the internal componenets and re-can them to make a filter to test the media and clicker valve. As long as you don't cut the media off the element, they can test the parts seperate or as a unit.
How do you think they test their by-pass valves before production to see if they meet specs? It is part of their ISO 9000 procedures . As Champ stamps out their own components, they have to test them before final construction. Not only do they pressure test every filter, each prodcution run has complete filters removed from the production lines for further tests. Including destructive tests. Where filters are deliberately over pressurized.
Lubeowner..would you say you're the only lube owner in the country who cuts filters open? Would you say that you're the only one who keeps quiet about what you see. Or do you think that others may have communicated their concerns to their parent company or Champ directly?
Do you think that the private label accounts that Champ have would stand for poor quality products being private labelled in their name?
Do you think that the clicker valve issue wouldn't become known to the corporate office and that corporate would investigate?
Or do you think they're all in collusion together to allow shoddy product to be labeled in their name. Do you think if the clicker valve is such poor design and will cause problems that the same corporate people aren't running to Fram, Purolator, or Wix to have their brand switched to their production lines.
Champ has consequences besides paying warranties on their own if as you think the design is poor don't they. And with what they've got invested in the E-core product it would be a double whammy should they lose private label accounts and they have to scrap the line in total because of the clicker valve wouldn't it.
So if you want a real scientific study..send it to the scientists. And if you think there will be shenanigans, then mark the filter or components in a manner that you know and request them to be sent back. Every cover letter from the warranty manager says you have 60 days to request the filter back.
Let me also add that if the clicker valve was such an issue, why is it in other threads people in this forum have run longer than 3,000 miles and have not experienced the same problems with the filter that lubeowner has seen?
That the elements are in good condition. No wavy pleats, etc...
Of course I last ran 9,000 with my Super Tech, do oil analysis, have currently 24K on the car. Had 130K on my previous car with no filter failures or oil analysis problems. And i've used Fram air filters..
besides Champ private brands..
and used to drain and flush my coolant every 18 months. I now have the new 5 year stuff in my current Taurus.
That the elements are in good condition. No wavy pleats, etc...
Of course I last ran 9,000 with my Super Tech, do oil analysis, have currently 24K on the car. Had 130K on my previous car with no filter failures or oil analysis problems. And i've used Fram air filters..
Filterguy,
I want you to stop holding back & tell us how you REALLY feel.
I want you to stop holding back & tell us how you REALLY feel.
The oil filter industry probably responds like the outboard motor industry to problems - they blame things that are either bad design or crappy parts on:
salt water
bad gas
owner abuse
salt water
bad gas
owner abuse
Well I didn't spend 50 million on testing filters ..only $8 on a Bosch Premium with the "clicker valve" that lasted two days on my vehicle.Very slow oil pressure and warning lights with beeping "check gauges" was the result at cold temperature start-ups.Installed a Wix Sport truck filter in the Bosch's place (same oil)and problem solved.Have used Baldwin,Purolater Premium Plus,Napa Gold with-out problems .Didn't somebody say the Titanic was unsinkable,or a little piece of foam wouldn't hurt anything on the space shuttle..oh and by the way "we didn't know that cigarettes are bad for you".How many items or decisions are pushed along because too much money is involved to go back?Testing on the general public never happens..pleeease..I know I've been a guinea pig on a number of expensive items I've purchased and DON'T LIKE IT
..sorry rant over.
[ March 19, 2005, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: Greaser ]
[ March 19, 2005, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: Greaser ]
You are 100% correct. However, if you want a real world study, put the filters in the real world. Apples and oranges here people. Champ no doubt has excellent quality control in their manufacturing process. However, there is clear evidence presented here that there is a real-world variable which their lab tests are not taking into account. We do not have enough information to claim that lubowner is conducting a true scientific study. As you pointed out, we don't know the OCI, the car, the condition of the oil etc. However, we certainly have enough information to see that there might be an issue with certain filters under certain conditions. It is a sizable sample group, it is a variety of cars and it is done constantly so single production run flaws are less likley to make a serious impact on the results.
Again, it is science versus real world. Each has its place and they are equally valuable. That is why to both Filter Guy and lubeowner I say
T-Keith,
That picture of the E-core I posted at the beginning of this thread is the only one I have seen damage on. The pleat directly adjacent to the seam was loose because the pleat did not adhere to the endcap when manufactured. Basically, I think the E-core design is good, except for the unpredictability of the nitrile bypass/ADBV valve combo. after it has hardened some over time. I think the oil flow is probably improved in these filters due to the large openings in the center tube.
Filter Guy,
Why the deep loyaly to Champ, you do not work there anymore, right? I must be imagining the torn and distorted media. I must be staging the pictures because I have nothing better to do with my time, other than operate a lubeshop, carwash, 3 self-serve wash bays, and a service station on a 1.5 acre lot.
As for the testing and science vs. real world, lets all remember that GM designed and tested the 305 V8 to be a totally leak free engine, on its introduction to the SBC line.
About how much money is spent on the clicker and e-core, the old saying applies. You gotta spend it to make it. A company like Champ will gladly spend 50 million if they can double their profit margin by cutting manufacturing costs, so this holds no water with me.
I have said this before but will say again. The damage to the clicker bypass filters seems to stem from two things. 1. The clicker not being able to open, or opening and closing causing shockwaves, thus causing the media to distort and tear away from the endcap. 2. In 100% of the damaged clicker bypass filters the media was torn where it was widely spaced. This uneven pleating is caused by poor quality control, and or lack of media. It is spaced nice and even all the way around the core, then whoops we are running out of media lets space these last four pleats waaaaay out to make up for it.
Media is arranged so it is a triangular shape, why, because a triangle is the strongest shape. Now lests stretch that pleat out so it makes a flatter surface and apply the same pressure to it. It will crush much easier. This is the exact phenomenon I am finding in the PH8A, PH2835, PH253, PH820, and, PH2808. This media could probably hold up with a threaded end bypass, or even a closed end spring bypass. But with the clicker it creates too harsh of an environment for the uneven pleating and results in tears. I am not going to debate this point any further in this thread, because I seem to be repeating myself over and over again.
I do appreciate your technical knowledge, and I believe you really know your stuff when it comes to filters and filtration systems. I do not want to make any enemies on this board as I thouroughly enjoy reading and posting here. There is some really great stuff here. I am just posting pictures of what I am seeing, and I am sorry if this upsets some with loyalties to particular brands, etc.
That picture of the E-core I posted at the beginning of this thread is the only one I have seen damage on. The pleat directly adjacent to the seam was loose because the pleat did not adhere to the endcap when manufactured. Basically, I think the E-core design is good, except for the unpredictability of the nitrile bypass/ADBV valve combo. after it has hardened some over time. I think the oil flow is probably improved in these filters due to the large openings in the center tube.
Filter Guy,
Why the deep loyaly to Champ, you do not work there anymore, right? I must be imagining the torn and distorted media. I must be staging the pictures because I have nothing better to do with my time, other than operate a lubeshop, carwash, 3 self-serve wash bays, and a service station on a 1.5 acre lot.
As for the testing and science vs. real world, lets all remember that GM designed and tested the 305 V8 to be a totally leak free engine, on its introduction to the SBC line.
About how much money is spent on the clicker and e-core, the old saying applies. You gotta spend it to make it. A company like Champ will gladly spend 50 million if they can double their profit margin by cutting manufacturing costs, so this holds no water with me.
I have said this before but will say again. The damage to the clicker bypass filters seems to stem from two things. 1. The clicker not being able to open, or opening and closing causing shockwaves, thus causing the media to distort and tear away from the endcap. 2. In 100% of the damaged clicker bypass filters the media was torn where it was widely spaced. This uneven pleating is caused by poor quality control, and or lack of media. It is spaced nice and even all the way around the core, then whoops we are running out of media lets space these last four pleats waaaaay out to make up for it.
Media is arranged so it is a triangular shape, why, because a triangle is the strongest shape. Now lests stretch that pleat out so it makes a flatter surface and apply the same pressure to it. It will crush much easier. This is the exact phenomenon I am finding in the PH8A, PH2835, PH253, PH820, and, PH2808. This media could probably hold up with a threaded end bypass, or even a closed end spring bypass. But with the clicker it creates too harsh of an environment for the uneven pleating and results in tears. I am not going to debate this point any further in this thread, because I seem to be repeating myself over and over again.
I do appreciate your technical knowledge, and I believe you really know your stuff when it comes to filters and filtration systems. I do not want to make any enemies on this board as I thouroughly enjoy reading and posting here. There is some really great stuff here. I am just posting pictures of what I am seeing, and I am sorry if this upsets some with loyalties to particular brands, etc.
Lubeowner,
Would you be willing to post the name of the lube shop/car wash/service station that you run there in Oregon? Some folks (not me) have questioned your credibility, & posting the name of your business might put that behavior to an end......that's just my $.02
Would you be willing to post the name of the lube shop/car wash/service station that you run there in Oregon? Some folks (not me) have questioned your credibility, & posting the name of your business might put that behavior to an end......that's just my $.02
Any chance you've cut open a Mobil1 filter? That's what I use and I usually run 7k-8k OCI's (using M1 5w-30 in both my 04 Explorer and 04 Grand Am V6). If you have and reported on it, I apologize in advance for missing it
BTW...newbie here, just joined yesterday
BTW...newbie here, just joined yesterday
Exactly how would posting the name of his shop establish credibility? I would say you can chose to believe the photos or not.quote:
Originally posted by wavinwayne:
Lubeowner,
Would you be willing to post the name of the lube shop/car wash/service station that you run there in Oregon? Some folks (not me) have questioned your credibility, & posting the name of your business might put that behavior to an end......that's just my $.02
I cut apart a new ST3614 filter last night just to see how the media pleat spacing was and check out the clicker valve issue my self. I know there is some very wide gaps near the glue line, 3 of them on this e core filter in front of me. In .900 across there is only 3 media pleats compared to 9 to 10 media pleats on the rest of the filter in a .900 span.
These filters may be alright in Summer conditions. But I can see how the glue line area could be a weak link in the chain below freezing temperatures when the oil is much thicker.
Personally I run the Purolator Pureone oil filter. It cost only a few dollars more but I have not had any problems with it so far in many years.
[ March 19, 2005, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Hirev ]
Alto's LubeXpress, Alto's Wash-N-Vac, Six Corners Chevron/Food Mart
I am not going to post any other information on the WWW, to prove my credibility. It seems I have started a war and that was not my intention at all. Everyone if free to believe what they wish. That is what is great about our country. Pictures are worth 1000 words.
I am not going to post any other information on the WWW, to prove my credibility. It seems I have started a war and that was not my intention at all. Everyone if free to believe what they wish. That is what is great about our country. Pictures are worth 1000 words.
bighead,
Sorry, I have not had any Mobil 1's come in lately. I did have a few PureOne Purolators come in and was very impressed by the build quality. Even pleating, silicone ADBV, etc. No problems noted with the media. I see those in the local stores and they seem like a good value for the money.
Sorry, I have not had any Mobil 1's come in lately. I did have a few PureOne Purolators come in and was very impressed by the build quality. Even pleating, silicone ADBV, etc. No problems noted with the media. I see those in the local stores and they seem like a good value for the money.
Keep doing what you're doing Lubeowner, it's got some people stirring about and that's going to keep poeple honest in the long run. Labs are labs and the real world is the real world....we don't live in labs. Keep the pics coming!
- Status
