Clickers, Frams, and E-cores, oh my (pics)
- Thread starter lubeowner
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How does the clicker bypass work and what Filters use them? What are other types of bypasses out there that are used? Sorry for the ignorance, but I am trying to learn more about bypass function and different filter construction. thanks
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I think that the clicker type bypass isn't progressive and sends fluid shockwaves (violent) through the media. I have nothing to base this on beyond the "clicker" action that one observes as opposed to other type spring actions. (visions of diodes in "avalanche" after a certain reverse bias)
That is, I can surely be FOS ..but the result would support the supposition.
That is, I can surely be FOS ..but the result would support the supposition.
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Looks to me like oil filter bypass valve spring pressure is not where is is supposed to be. I have to wonder how close to specification in PSI the bypass springs would actually check out at installed height. Both new and after 4000 miles.
Hydraulic systems can and many times do send fluid shock waves though a system. But it is the responsibility of oil pump bypass valve and oil filter bypass valve to tame the fluid shock waves. The Hydraulic shock wave action can be seen very well in hoses on 200 - 3000 PSI hydraulic systems in machines used to cut metal.
Hydraulic systems can and many times do send fluid shock waves though a system. But it is the responsibility of oil pump bypass valve and oil filter bypass valve to tame the fluid shock waves. The Hydraulic shock wave action can be seen very well in hoses on 200 - 3000 PSI hydraulic systems in machines used to cut metal.
Well maybe those who see cut open filters day in day out aren't as shocked as those who post in here.
Pleats have looked like these pictures, at least since 1982 when I started selling filters full time.
Over the years, and long before clicker valves, i've seen much worse.
Some of the common reasons why media will appear as they do in these photo's are all those things that we know effect the media. Dirt through the air filter or vacuum hoses, old oil sludge that remains in the pan and contaminates the "fresh" oil, extended drain intervals, overheated engines due to improper cooling system maintenace, and coolant leaks or water condensation that is present in the oil.
What we have in the forum are people who take very good care of their pride and joys. What we have in real life are people who neglect maintenance and think that just changing oil is enough to do the trick. Especially with people who trade their cars in every 2-3 years. The second or third owner pays the price for previous maintenance.
Lubeowners pics are interesting but without the data of his "good" frequent customers and what their maintenance habits are to compare what happens on the same engine over 2-3-4 oil changes and the filters being cut open on that one specific vehicle, he will always find what he does.
One of the most neglected pieces of oil & filter information to consumers is the cooling system. Basically 1/3 of the heat generated by the engine is dissipated through mechanical energy. 1/3 through the cooling system. And 1/3 through the ambiant air and oil itself. The oil actually helps to cool the engine.
When people extend or use up their coolant ( it's NOT just antifreeze) and the cooling system can not dissipate the heat generated by the engine, then the oil is subject to higher temps and can struggle to do more than it was intended. This is where some of the sludge comes from.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, that wavy pleats ( and the sludginess of the oil in his pics) is probably due to the coolant wearing out not doing it's job or water present. Or the oil additive package is dropping out of suspension for whatever reason and impacting the media.
Without lubeowner or the vehicles owner sending in a sample of the oil for analysis , he/we will not know what is present in the oil that could have caused what the pics show.
The filter is an appendage in the lubricating system. It will see all the faults that occur over time. It will not remain pristine when it is not used in pristine conditions..like your engine.
Pleats have looked like these pictures, at least since 1982 when I started selling filters full time.
Over the years, and long before clicker valves, i've seen much worse.
Some of the common reasons why media will appear as they do in these photo's are all those things that we know effect the media. Dirt through the air filter or vacuum hoses, old oil sludge that remains in the pan and contaminates the "fresh" oil, extended drain intervals, overheated engines due to improper cooling system maintenace, and coolant leaks or water condensation that is present in the oil.
What we have in the forum are people who take very good care of their pride and joys. What we have in real life are people who neglect maintenance and think that just changing oil is enough to do the trick. Especially with people who trade their cars in every 2-3 years. The second or third owner pays the price for previous maintenance.
Lubeowners pics are interesting but without the data of his "good" frequent customers and what their maintenance habits are to compare what happens on the same engine over 2-3-4 oil changes and the filters being cut open on that one specific vehicle, he will always find what he does.
One of the most neglected pieces of oil & filter information to consumers is the cooling system. Basically 1/3 of the heat generated by the engine is dissipated through mechanical energy. 1/3 through the cooling system. And 1/3 through the ambiant air and oil itself. The oil actually helps to cool the engine.
When people extend or use up their coolant ( it's NOT just antifreeze) and the cooling system can not dissipate the heat generated by the engine, then the oil is subject to higher temps and can struggle to do more than it was intended. This is where some of the sludge comes from.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, that wavy pleats ( and the sludginess of the oil in his pics) is probably due to the coolant wearing out not doing it's job or water present. Or the oil additive package is dropping out of suspension for whatever reason and impacting the media.
Without lubeowner or the vehicles owner sending in a sample of the oil for analysis , he/we will not know what is present in the oil that could have caused what the pics show.
The filter is an appendage in the lubricating system. It will see all the faults that occur over time. It will not remain pristine when it is not used in pristine conditions..like your engine.
I do not believe that your assessment of the situation is consistent with the information lubeowner provides.quote:
Originally posted by Filter guy:
What we have in the forum are people who take very good care of their pride and joys. What we have in real life are people who neglect maintenance and think that just changing oil is enough to do the trick. Especially with people who trade their cars in every 2-3 years. The second or third owner pays the price for previous maintenance.
Lubeowners pics are interesting but without the data of his "good" frequent customers and what their maintenance habits are to compare what happens on the same engine over 2-3-4 oil changes and the filters being cut open on that one specific vehicle, he will always find what he does.
The filter is an appendage in the lubricating system. It will see all the faults that occur over time. It will not remain pristine when it is not used in pristine conditions..like your engine.
I am of the opinion that filters should not be designed for the good customer. They should be engineered for the worst case scenario and built to survive it. Should we have brakes on cars that only work for the average stop? Or should we have brakes that will stop the car as quickly as possible in the worst situation? Clearly the later. Also, lubeowner states that every Fram and every clicker bypass filter has media damage. He has not indicated, but I would suspect that he is checking filters of both good and bad customers.
Sorry, Filter Guy, this is nothing personal. I respect your opinions and you bring some great tech to this board, but in this case you sound too much like you are making excuses for products that clearly have some failings.
Filter guy seems to always be full of defense for all things Champion Labs.
Blaming the cooling system for filters where the media has visibly torn away from the endcaps or blown itself through the holes in the center tube would make Johnny Cochran proud.
I don't trust Champion's latest two rounds of bypass valve designs. The non-linear sheet metal clicker and the even more absurd rubber flap on the new ecores. Nitrile rubber's characteristics vary greatly with temperature and aging. How on earth can the new ecore bypass valve design operate consistently when it is made of a material which has such a wide elasticity variation with temperature and time?
Now I am going to go dispose of the "free" Bosch Premium filter on my '03 Accord and put one of the Baldwins I have on the shelf on there.
John
Blaming the cooling system for filters where the media has visibly torn away from the endcaps or blown itself through the holes in the center tube would make Johnny Cochran proud.
I don't trust Champion's latest two rounds of bypass valve designs. The non-linear sheet metal clicker and the even more absurd rubber flap on the new ecores. Nitrile rubber's characteristics vary greatly with temperature and aging. How on earth can the new ecore bypass valve design operate consistently when it is made of a material which has such a wide elasticity variation with temperature and time?
Now I am going to go dispose of the "free" Bosch Premium filter on my '03 Accord and put one of the Baldwins I have on the shelf on there.
John
teamDFL,
Thank you.
You have gotten the point I have been trying to make. For those not understanding I will say it again. The ONLY failures we are seeing are with all Fram built products and CLICKER BYPASS Champion products. THE OTHER CHAMPION PRODUCTS ARE HAVING NO ISSUES, other than the Poserstroke diesel filter that had turned to mush. Why don't I post up pics of Wix, Fleetguard, Baldwin, or other high end filters? Because I have seen no failures with them. I am cutting open all filters, clicker, no clicker, e-core, etc. I will say it again. THE DAMAGED CHAMPION FILTERS ARE ALWAYS, 100% OF THE TIME CLICKER BYPASS MODELS. Specifically PH2835, PH8A, PH820, PH253, PH2808 seem to be having the porblems. These are off newer vehicles with 150,000 mile service hybrid coolants, low mileage, and drain intervals that are within manufactures recommendations.
I will also say again, that I dont care about slightly deformed media either, but where you see the deformations, the ends are torn away from the endcap, and anyone who chooses not to believe this, I will be happy to send the 100 filters to them if they pay freight.
Please remember that many manufacturers are recommending 10,000 or greater ODI's, so how is this clicker junk going to withstand that?
BTW, just say no to the NAPA nascar select spin flow filter. A low end Wix, with some crazy plastic oil diverter. The two I have taken apart had media that was twisted, and distorted so badly that the end caps were no longer parallel.
Thank you.
You have gotten the point I have been trying to make. For those not understanding I will say it again. The ONLY failures we are seeing are with all Fram built products and CLICKER BYPASS Champion products. THE OTHER CHAMPION PRODUCTS ARE HAVING NO ISSUES, other than the Poserstroke diesel filter that had turned to mush. Why don't I post up pics of Wix, Fleetguard, Baldwin, or other high end filters? Because I have seen no failures with them. I am cutting open all filters, clicker, no clicker, e-core, etc. I will say it again. THE DAMAGED CHAMPION FILTERS ARE ALWAYS, 100% OF THE TIME CLICKER BYPASS MODELS. Specifically PH2835, PH8A, PH820, PH253, PH2808 seem to be having the porblems. These are off newer vehicles with 150,000 mile service hybrid coolants, low mileage, and drain intervals that are within manufactures recommendations.
I will also say again, that I dont care about slightly deformed media either, but where you see the deformations, the ends are torn away from the endcap, and anyone who chooses not to believe this, I will be happy to send the 100 filters to them if they pay freight.
Please remember that many manufacturers are recommending 10,000 or greater ODI's, so how is this clicker junk going to withstand that?
BTW, just say no to the NAPA nascar select spin flow filter. A low end Wix, with some crazy plastic oil diverter. The two I have taken apart had media that was twisted, and distorted so badly that the end caps were no longer parallel.
Oh great. I have a Value Tech VT8A on my truck right now.
Good thing it was only for 800 miles and a Schaeffers Neutra rinse. That baby is coming off this weekend!
I have a nice Purolator L40017 with threaded end bypass valve for the next OCI.
Good thing it was only for 800 miles and a Schaeffers Neutra rinse. That baby is coming off this weekend!
I have a nice Purolator L40017 with threaded end bypass valve for the next OCI.
wonder if Champion and fram do/did any in service testing like at a jiffy lube?
Seems Jiffy lube would love to have you take the old filters.
If they do only "clean" in lab tests they may be missing the boat
Seems Jiffy lube would love to have you take the old filters.
If they do only "clean" in lab tests they may be missing the boat
Who makes the Pennzoil filter? Since Pennzoil owns Jiffy Lube, I am pretty sure that getting those filters back would be quite easy as there would be very few steps in the process.
I've got a Mileguard off of a '97 Honda Del Sol sitting in my garage. I can't wait to cut that thing apart--it's got 8000 miles on it. Based on the extended change interval, I used Mobil Clean 7500 and a Purolator Pure One on it.
The few times I've used Jiffy Lube, I have always supplied my own Motorcraft filter for them to use. I've long suspected that the filters they use are Frams..
Can someone e mail champion to see if they have a response to what lubeowner is taking pictures of?
edwardH1,
Thought about doing that myself, but then thought why bother. One thing that I have learned in life is that if someone WANTS to do it right they would already be doing so. The company has changed hands several times recently and it seems that cutting manufacturing costs is priority #1 at the expense of the customer. I would really like to know what type of "testing" was done on the clicker bypass design. Anyone who has cut one open can see that this B.S. clicker design is nothing more than eliminating parts to cut cost. I still would like to know how they expect it to work without sending shockwaves through the filter. What really put me over the edge today was a fuel filter sourced through them on a late model Ford. The element was broken loose and rattling around inside. I cut it open and found the glue thatwas supposed to hold the cartridge to the top of the can had disentigated and the cartridge was just loose floating around in the filter body. Great. Will be meeting with the local Wix rep on Thurs. to consider changing filter suppliers.
FWIW, I looked in some old Champ stock and rarely used filters on our shelf today. Boy have these filters changed. Some of these are 6-7 years old and look nothing like their current stuff, they used to be much better.
Thought about doing that myself, but then thought why bother. One thing that I have learned in life is that if someone WANTS to do it right they would already be doing so. The company has changed hands several times recently and it seems that cutting manufacturing costs is priority #1 at the expense of the customer. I would really like to know what type of "testing" was done on the clicker bypass design. Anyone who has cut one open can see that this B.S. clicker design is nothing more than eliminating parts to cut cost. I still would like to know how they expect it to work without sending shockwaves through the filter. What really put me over the edge today was a fuel filter sourced through them on a late model Ford. The element was broken loose and rattling around inside. I cut it open and found the glue thatwas supposed to hold the cartridge to the top of the can had disentigated and the cartridge was just loose floating around in the filter body. Great. Will be meeting with the local Wix rep on Thurs. to consider changing filter suppliers.
FWIW, I looked in some old Champ stock and rarely used filters on our shelf today. Boy have these filters changed. Some of these are 6-7 years old and look nothing like their current stuff, they used to be much better.
I call it the Walmarting of America. Create a demand at cheaper price level, and the manufacturers are forced to cut corners. You know what the end-result is. Quality suffers.
I think for the most part Champion Labs makes great filters, as Filter Guy preaches they make many brands and the designs of the filters(at least the ones I've cut apart) are solid.
Some people are so worried about clickers and Mexican made filters that they don't even notice the filter their using doesn't have either.
If this bypass valve is questionable, then avoid it. Damaged media would lead me to believe that it might be the case. However, I have worked at a quick lube place and I can tell you that hardly any cars serviced at a quick lube place are well taken care of. If they aren't abused by their owners their damaged by incompetent workers.
I've cut apart many of my own filters and never seen any damage to a Champion filter, however, very few have had bypass valves.
-T
Some people are so worried about clickers and Mexican made filters that they don't even notice the filter their using doesn't have either.
If this bypass valve is questionable, then avoid it. Damaged media would lead me to believe that it might be the case. However, I have worked at a quick lube place and I can tell you that hardly any cars serviced at a quick lube place are well taken care of. If they aren't abused by their owners their damaged by incompetent workers.
I've cut apart many of my own filters and never seen any damage to a Champion filter, however, very few have had bypass valves.
-T
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