This is a great description of instrument flying. Most of the time, you don't suffer from spacial disorientation, but when you do it is a very very powerful force within you. You have to recognize that you are disoriented and have the discipline to understand that the instruments are correct and know that your brain is screaming lies to you. To take it a step further, you also have to be able to do this when you have a single instrument failure or multiple instrument failures. The failed instruments may all also be telling you a lie. It's not easy and those who aren't proficient are in serious trouble.
CAT III landing
- Thread starter edyvw
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Like I said before, spacial disorientation is a very powerful force within you. When you get disoriented and you enter an unusual attitude, you have very little time to correct the situation. The two most significant enemies are the ground and structural overload. Time is not on your side. Both of these crashes happened very quickly after the pilots became disoriented. The helicopter pilot had the ability to fly in IMC, but not the proficiency. JFK Jr. showed lack of judgement, he did not have the ability or the proficiency. Flying over water in low visibility at night with little experience and only a private certificate without an instrument rating. He never should have made the choice to fly that night. He didn't know what he didn't know.
I'm a low time pilot, but I enjoyed the instrument training though minimal, that I had, I would not have a problem, using instruments even if loosing one important one. Night flight training and landing was done with a piece of card board blocking all the flight instruments, a few times, yeah landing airspeed, altitude all by sight reference outside and feel. Yes had good VFR conditions though. I don't understand the JFK or Kobe Bryant crashes at all. We all have instrument training.
I never would depend on just one instrument like they show most of those pilots on air disasters doing. Together they all tell the story.
Sorry but those glass panels would scare me, I would like and trust the old mechanical system more.
I can see how if a person got into a drastic position like inverted in IMC and had tumbling gyro's etc. then it could be a bit spooky.
And in a small plane the right winds and up or down drafts could potentially mess things up big time.
Synthetic vision would always be a huge help.
I never would depend on just one instrument like they show most of those pilots on air disasters doing. Together they all tell the story.
Sorry but those glass panels would scare me, I would like and trust the old mechanical system more.
I can see how if a person got into a drastic position like inverted in IMC and had tumbling gyro's etc. then it could be a bit spooky.
And in a small plane the right winds and up or down drafts could potentially mess things up big time.
Synthetic vision would always be a huge help.
We have the latest version of EVS (FLIR) on our G600’s HUD and which also ports to any of the 4 main display’s video window. Along with syn vis. Neat tech for sure. But the EVS does not see through the dense fog/clouds.@Astro14, Just questions here. Do they have FLIR type systems and SAR combined ? Its too bad things like this can't be way more affordable, so many lives could be saved especially with the small planes and helicopters. If I was to fly again I'd want the CAS/ TAS, altitude encoding transponder etc etc. I've watched too many of those air disaster shows.So is synthetic vision not as good because it is GPS based?
What is the latest and greatest system now?
This video shows where it is useful and shows what it can’t see through.
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If you were in VMC sure, but IMC, I challenge that without an instrument rating and proficiency, you would quickly be in trouble.
Yes, this is normal training. Flight by reference only to the visual world outside and no instrumentation inside. All pilots should be able to fly in VMC without looking inside.
Yes, they had a very small amount of training to fly by reference to instruments only. The private ACS (Airman Certification Standard) only requires private pilots be able to do the following in simulated IMC (Instrument meteorological conditions).
- Maintain straight and level flight
- Make turns to a heading
- Climb
- Descend
- Recover from unusual attitudes
- Know when to declare an emergency
Nobody that completes the bare minimum instrument training requirements for the private certificate is qualified to fly in IMC, nobody.
I have little time on glass, but in my opinion, glass is light years ahead of steam gauges.
One time I got myself into a thunderstorm. I learned about flying from that. I promise you it will never happen to me again. I would much rather be on the ground wishing I was flying that be flying and wishing I was on the ground. Don't do it.
My only problem back in the days of flying, if I got into IMC would be communicating with IFR control centers, I would have though wanted 2 vor's, I could have found my way with them, as I used one vor many times for finding places at night.
Just like Jimmy Doolittle, I always kept my head then. I always wanted to do aerobatics but the only thing I dare do in the school plane was spins. I liked and did the instrument thing very good, never cheated when under the hood. And always got out of the unusual attitudes, had 2 very good instructors. Now at an older age things would be not as good. The first guy to fly instrument flight had no formal training so things like that do happen. Like many things there are to do, some people have it and some don't. And watching the air disaster show, I see cases of highly experienced pilots that just don't know how to fly a plane.
Do airliners now even have a turn bank indicator? Turn slip nowdays term?
Just like Jimmy Doolittle, I always kept my head then. I always wanted to do aerobatics but the only thing I dare do in the school plane was spins. I liked and did the instrument thing very good, never cheated when under the hood. And always got out of the unusual attitudes, had 2 very good instructors. Now at an older age things would be not as good. The first guy to fly instrument flight had no formal training so things like that do happen. Like many things there are to do, some people have it and some don't. And watching the air disaster show, I see cases of highly experienced pilots that just don't know how to fly a plane.
Do airliners now even have a turn bank indicator? Turn slip nowdays term?
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I haven't seen a "turn and slip indicator" since learning to fly in a Cessna.
The only standby/analog instruments I have in the Airbus A320 cockpit are a small attitude indicator, compass, and altimeter.
Pilots are human and even highly experienced pilots ( CREWS ) can make mistakes but we have mitigation procedures in place to try and catch them ( SOPS, threat briefings, cross-checking, etc.).
I "enjoy" watching Mayday and reading reports because I learn from some of those mistakes.
I'm surprised they still have anything analog. The modern backup stuff is amazingly good.
Our Gulfstream G600:
Yeah all good until the power goes out. Just watch air disasters it has happened.I'm surprised they still have anything analog. The modern backup stuff is amazingly good.
Our Gulfstream G600:
Wow no more turn bank indicator, no wonder those pilots mess up with spatial disorientation on air disasters. That one instrument was a primary one to me under the hood, along with rate of climb/descent, altimeter and airspeed, the attitude indicator or artificial horizon on one particular plane seemed to like to tumble a bit.
Wow crazy confusing all the tv screens in the cockpit. Only thing good there is that sort of synthetic vision one.
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The analog standby Attitude indicator is powered electrically ( not the standby airspeed indicator obviously ).
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A320 is a much older aircraft ( 1987 ) design.I'm surprised they still have anything analog. The modern backup stuff is amazingly good.
Our Gulfstream G600:
My airline was the launch customer in North America ( 1990 ). Retired our first A320 ( 30 years old ) in 2020.
The "old" analog stuff works perfectly despite never having to rely on it LOL.
Our A321 aircraft have a "glass" standby attitude indicator.
The A321 has some FMS backup modes and speed/altitude modes that are digital ( lose all three IRS, unreliable airspeed/altitude...." back up speed scale " button ).
All that said, the ultimate "backup or flight control computer" is" the pilot and newer pilots are much more dependent on automation/ technology I notice.
Nice looking cockpit in the G 600.
Don't even the most sophisticated glass cockpits have a "regular" analog artificial horizon as a backup?
We don’t have any analog instruments.
The standby instruments on the glare shield are powered by dedicated batteries. The entire cockpit can go black and those will still be functional. At least thats the idea. So far, it seems as valid as any idea.
Just a layman with only a few hours of recliner time, but my suspicion is that if the power truly goes out (no form of aux) then you have far, far greater problems on your hands.
On the older small planes, only thing a power outage causes is the lights to go out.
Gyro's were run by either a vacuum pump or a venturi system. In any new aircraft that is all electric if there is a fire cooking the wires your doomed. When the power goes out you have nothing, no instruments no flight controls. They are very dangerous, the whole idea of redundancy is non existent with them period. They all need ejection seats, at least there is a chance to survive.
That’s not how they work, really.
You’re describing what might happen with one display, powered by one electrical source.
Even on the 757/767, dinosaurs by comparison, there are triple ring laser gyros for attitude information. Two primary flight displays. One back up. Three display symbol generators with automatic switching. Several redundant power sources, including multiple busses fed by both battery and inverters from the main generators.
Your scenario fails to take all that designed redundancy into account.
A lot has to fail for the displays to become degraded. Even on battery power alone, after multiple AC and DC bus failures, which are shut down if they fault (or arc), you still have two displays.
In small airplanes some instruments are run by vacuum, some by electricity, and some work off the pitot-static . All radios are run by electricity. If you loose all power, then you lose the electrical instruments and all radios including NAV, but your pitot-static and vacuum instruments are still fine. If you are IMC, then you'd best understand the lost comm procedures and be able to fly with the remaining instruments and realize you are in very deep, as you have no NAV. This is why many pilots of small airplanes carry a battery powered hand-held radio in their flight bag. If you can talk to ATC, then you have a much better chance of safely making it to an airport. If you can't navigate and can't talk, the best option is to be able to descend safely into VMC, find an airport and land, then call Flight Service and let them know what happened and where you are. If it's LIFR, you have major problems.
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If I was again flying I would want a hand held radio and, a hand held GPS. Do they make hand help transponders?
There was the recent Delta flight problem, didn't the electronics go crazy?
There was the recent Delta flight problem, didn't the electronics go crazy?
Hmm Help and held got messed up. This is the edit page.
Did you intend to post this?
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