BlackStone - Oil Manufacturer Doesn't Matter - Discussion

[StevieC]

Dave, I disagree with the "They are the same quality". They have met the minimum standard in order to be labelled as such by the specification, but one could outperform this minimum more than the other. Whether or not this extra performance is needed above the specification is the question.

 

[HangFire]

After years of reading BITOG, I've come to the conclusion that the following matter in order of importance:

1. That the engine have enough oil (most important)
2. That the engine has mostly oil and not too much sludge, particulates, gasoline and/or coolant (2nd most important)
3. That the engine have the right weight of oil (not so important)
4. That the engine has oil that has the right certifications and qualifications (not very important as long as it's not Bullseye SA used oil)
5. That the oil has a high synthetic content (not important except for Turbos, and maybe DI's that leak gasoline)

Yes, there are fragile engines that shear down oil and need either higher quality oil or more frequent changes (or both.) Turbos are in a special class because of bearing coking. Racing/Tracking changes things as well.

But for the most part, most people get buy rather well as long as there is oil in their engine.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
I've always used uoas to determine engine health. If an engine is shedding a ton of wear metals,something internally must be wrong.

I would have an established trend and then if I saw a spike all of a sudden I would want to investigate further. And by spike I mean huge numbers difference. No double digit PPM increase type of thing.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
I've always used uoas to determine engine health. If an engine is shedding a ton of wear metals,something internally must be wrong.

I would have an established trend and then if I saw a spike all of a sudden I would want to investigate further. And by spike I mean huge numbers difference. No double digit PPM increase type of thing.




How would you do this? Tear down the engine?

 

[StevieC]

I would check the obvious first like sounds from the top end and bottom end using a mechanics stethoscope. Then if I couldn't find anything I would do a series of short UOA's and see if the trend was getting worse or reversing (indicating a possible chunk of debris stuck in a bearing creating a temporary spike in wear metals).

If needed I would pull the valve cover(s) and oil pan and have a gander for anything obvious like cam scoring, damaged roller rockers, or bearings in the bottom end showing issues depending on which metals were showing up.

I've done enough cylinder heads, head gaskets and bottom end work with my dad I'm confident in doing this.

 

[burla]

Originally Posted by andyd
Don't really have a dog in this fight. Never paid for a UOA. I bought my first 528e with 150 kmiles on it. I soon discovered that it leaked a qt every 1500 miles from a weepy head gasket. So, I went to Wal Mart and bought Super Tech 20w50 dino and ran the car another 200K miles. So my anecdotal experience dove tails with Blackstone's. People who use UOAs aren't likely to use a bad oil. In fact , it is hard to find "bad" oil .

was the oil the cause of the head gasket?

 

[ChemLabNL]

All base oils are now scrubbed cleaner to meet latest oil specs...It's not 2005 anymore.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Dave, I disagree with the "They are the same quality". They have met the minimum standard in order to be labelled as such by the specification, but one could outperform this minimum more than the other. Whether or not this extra performance is needed above the specification is the question.



There is no way to tell if brand X versus brand y is superior if both are used in the same application. Thus it is equal. It has become to the point it is brand loyalty.

 

[Oily_Thing]

Is there any difference between Mobil 1 and Mobil 1 EP? Mobil 1 AP?

I doubt that oil is oil. There has to be a range/ranking of oil quality throughout the brands and formulations.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by StevieC
Dave, I disagree with the "They are the same quality". They have met the minimum standard in order to be labelled as such by the specification, but one could outperform this minimum more than the other. Whether or not this extra performance is needed above the specification is the question.



There is no way to tell if brand X versus brand y is superior if both are used in the same application. Thus it is equal. It has become to the point it is brand loyalty.




Exactly. Looking at the PDS of many oils, the specs are very close. Only Bitogers get obsessed over minor differences in cold cranking numbers or HTHS.

If you bring up that the Pennzoil yellow bottle of today is not the same as it was ten years ago you will get shouts of blasphemy and sacrilege.

 

[Dave1027]

I don't understand why Blackstone would come out with this statement. Just does not seem like a good business decision on their part. If all manufacturers' oils are the same then that's one reason not to use their services.

 

[StevieC]

And yet you have Amsoil advertising 25K mile OCI's and M1 advertising 20K Mile OCI's for AP and 15K Mile OCI's for EP. Yet they all claim to meet all the same specifications as required by the API / Dexos etc.
(And yes I know we are taking Amsoil's word for theirs and they haven't officially certified on their Signature Series Line I'm just using it to compare to the other 2 M1 products is all because very few manufacturers / blenders make these extended OCI claims).

We see some oils laugh at longer OCI's because they are built for it, while others can't make it past 8-10K miles and yet they all meet the same specifications: API, ACEA, ILSAC, Dexos or whatever.

To me this says that while they all "meet" the same minimum standards they are "ARE NOT" all the same in their capabilities and level of protection because some can surpass the "minimum" standard.

They might all appear to be the same on paper, or for a 3-5 or even 8K run but that doesn't mean they are the same and offer the same protection.
Plus there are things we don't see that only the more expensive lab analysts would see as Molakule mentioned that will give you a reverse engineering of sorts of what's in the oil including base stocks.

To me an oil that is built for 25K or 20K mile runs has to be quite robust and offer a higher level of protection against neutralizing acids, protecting seals, and keeping junk safely suspended longer than an economy oil that meets the same spec and isn't built for that is what I'm getting at. A lot of folks here want "Added protection" and "Buffers". which wouldn't be possible if all oils meeting the same standard were all the same without some surpassing the standard.

Wouldn't there be a benefit running M1 AP for shorter then they claim is allowed and benefiting from an oil with a super stout additive package and quality base stocks for maybe shorter than the 20K miles but more than the 8K miles of typical economy synthetic runs where there isn't a UOA saying it can go longer?

 

[Shannow]

StevieC...I find it funny in the linked article that the signature series oil users use it for a shorter (on average) mileage than many of the "lesser" oils.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by Shannow
StevieC...I find it funny in the linked article that the signature series oil users use it for a shorter (on average) mileage than many of the "lesser" oils.


Because Blackstone can control when their customers change their oil outside of their advice???

SS UOA's here would suggest longer OCI's than those in the article are fine. Surely by now they would have been sued to oblivion by the 25K crowd if it were a problem.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by StevieC
Dave, I disagree with the "They are the same quality". They have met the minimum standard in order to be labelled as such by the specification, but one could outperform this minimum more than the other. Whether or not this extra performance is needed above the specification is the question.



There is no way to tell if brand X versus brand y is superior if both are used in the same application. Thus it is equal. It has become to the point it is brand loyalty.


Exactly, and no oil on the market simply makes the minimum standards.
We have Castrol people on the board who have told us that they won't even send an oil to test unless they are confident that it will best Sequence IVA by 60% (3 times better wear protection than the standard requires in amsoil parlance).

So there's likely nothing on the market certificated that "just scrapes through" the minimum standard.

Supertech...when the Dexos listings were available, there were multiple oils that shared the same licence number...meaning that they were the same oil/add-pack, just bottled for different outlets.

The fact that it's a store brand doesn't mean it's not quality, or just scrapes through...the old data sheets for it had more information than just about any other oils (HTHS100 for example)...

 

[StevieC]

I wasn't implying that they all only met the minimum standard. I was explaining that it's one thing to meet this standard and it's another to exceed it, and by how much extra and what sort of benefits this added extra offers all while still "meeting" the standards and how that doesn't mean all oils are the same so long as they all meet the same "minimum" standard.

You aren't reading what I wrote properly. We have been down this road before. You are turning it into an Amsoil crusade with your snide comment (3 times better wear protection than the standard requires in amsoil parlance). and it has nothing to do with them. WHICH IS WHY I TALKED ABOUT M1 AP/EP. Implying their products are well past the minimum standards that other oils meet or surpass but not by the margins M1 seems to which would contradict what Dave was saying is what I'm illustrating.

Please leave the Amsoil hatred here because it has nothing to do with this thread and your personal beef with me not accepting what you say as gospel without questioning it.

 

[kschachn]

Both your examples are related to TBN retention, correct? Serviceability in that regard? Blackstone is referencing their UOA examples in regards to wear metals, right?

Mobil 1, Mobil 1 EP and Mobil 1 AP will all test similarly in Blackstone's eyes, as will the Amsoil products.

Originally Posted by StevieC
I wasn't implying that they all only met the minimum standard. I was explaining that it's one thing to meet this standard and it's another to exceed it, and by how much extra and what sort of benefits this added extra offers all while still "meeting" the standards and how that doesn't mean all oils are the same so long as they all meet the same "minimum" standard.

You aren't reading what I wrote properly. We have been down this road before. You are turning it into an Amsoil crusade and it has nothing to do with them. WHICH IS WHY I REFERENCE M1 AP/EP. THEY ARE ALSO MAKING MILEAGE CLAIMS JUST THE SAME AS AMSOIL. Implying their products are well past the minimum standards that other oils meet or surpass but not by the margins M1 seems to which would contradict what Dave was saying is what I'm illustrating.

Please leave the Amsoil hatred here because it has nothing to do with this thread and your personal beef with me not accepting what you say as gospel without questioning it.

 

[PimTac]

It's not Blackstone's place to recommend nor judge oils. Customers can put down unknown brand and Blackstone will judge it by its serviceability. The only thing they suggest is the length of the oci which is questionable at times.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted by HangFire
But for the most part, most people get buy rather well as long as there is oil in their engine.

Amen

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by Dave1027
I don't understand why Blackstone would come out with this statement. Just does not seem like a good business decision on their part. If all manufacturers' oils are the same then that's one reason not to use their services.


For the intended purpose of Used Oil Analysis, it makes perfect sense. When you try to use them as not intended: as an oil quality barometer, like often happens on here, then yes, I could see how it would seem strange.