Any advantage to prefill filter?

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Originally Posted By: blupupher
Answer me this one question.

Why do we have anti-drain back valves?



General Motors Australia went to both a smaller filter volume and anti drain back valves because their customers in the '80s didn't like the lifter clatter on cold mornings that their customers in the 60s and 70s didn't worry about...all without ill effect in either direction.

The smaller filter canister and element didn't hurt anything.
Nothing was hurt before the canister was shrink and ADBV installed.

The tribofilm and resiudual oil are still there from last time you ran the engine.

People who keep thinking that starts are "dry" have never been inside an engine...full stop.
 
Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol

If the only thing a person gained by prefilling, knowing nothing else, was si ply less valvetrain rattle during prime, that would be good enough even if there were more benefits to pre-filling. If anyone would like to prove the filter filling crowd as 100% futile, you would need to prove that adding oil to the oil filter does not reduce the entrained air in the oil system or hasten prime. I mean, anyone can try to prove that but it will not be a fruitful or sensical endeavor.


Why does one have to prove that ?

That's not the only item in the equation, to a "sensical" review of the practice.

while talking nonsensical endeavours, can you please explain how introducing particle laden oil into the clean side of a filter, whose sole existence and placement in an engine's lubrication system is to remove said particles is a GOOD idea ?

First you have to prove that the tribofilms and residual oil will fail in that couple of seconds and cause engine wear...you can't

Secondly that the particles in themselves cause less wear than the first case...you can't.

There'fore you can't even intimate that pre-filling provides a better lifetime outcome than not...at least with not, the particles are on the dirty side of the filter, where they belong.
 
Originally Posted By: blupupher
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: blupupher
I always thought the same thing. Worrying about "unfiltered" oil from a clean bottle of oil being poured into the filter, maybe 50-100cc max, when you are pouring 4+ qts into the fill tube.

I think the concept is that what gets dumped in gets filtered once before it's pumped around the engine. Of course, it's all BITOG OCD.
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Yes, but all the oil dumped in the fill hole touches everything in the engine, from the valve train all the way down to the crank and bearings.


Rubbish, it never can get INTO the bearings from being rained down from above...

As to your "clean" bottle of oil...

37245297.JohnDeere10W30.jpg


37542143.Mobil10W40.jpg
 
Shine a bright beam through a room and see the dust particles floating around? Open a bottle of new oil and the oil immediately starts to grab those "particles". As the often shown Cat table says, under a microscope the particles appear organic. A full flow oil filter from the auto store isn't a great filter. The new filter itself has dirt in it, and there are burs and metal particles on the inside of the filter, on the clean side. Most are just in an unsealed cardboard box that sits on a shelf, end open to the world. It does zero harm to prefill an oil filter with new oil.
 
It can't hurt!
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But.... for my only experience with prefilling, had it sitting on garage floor next to car while underneath draining and removing filter. Sometime during this, I moved and kicked over the prefilled filter, losing 1/2 quart of oil on floor.
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So, that was my last time doing that.
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
I'm not sure what "inherent oil system capacity" is meant to define other than sound wordy

Oh, I hate being wordy. Also hate being vague and leaving statements open to alternative interpretations, even more. No matter how explicit one tries to make their posts, there's still an exploit or two for semantics to rear it's ugly head. Would have just loved to say "sump capacity" in that context as it's functionally the same but technically incorrect. [censored] if you do, [censored] if you don't.

-How does ANY additional volume between the oil pump and the oil galleries help in any way ?
A larger filter canister increases the total system volume of oil. I said 'inherent' because the system inherits the additional capacity with the dipstick remaining at the normal FULL mark. So we're not overfilling the sump, but rather increasing the oiling system's capacity by leaving the sump alone and adding more circulating capacity elsewhere. More oil in circulation is 'better' but certainly not as good as a full on bypass system.


-If it was in the sump, then there's grater margin before running dry/sucking air...yes better, but not usually necessary.
Being after the sump, should a pickup tube start grabbing air, the extra volume downstream of the pump may provide a longer 'oil froth/foam' delivery through the increased filter capacity. Foam/frothy oil is better than nothing, right?*
*inconsequential speculation included for discussion alone

The tribofilm and resiudual oil are still there from last time you ran the engine.
By "dry" I'm referring to the oiling system. A main oil gallery full of air would be what I mean by dry, not the absence of tribofilms.

Why does one have to prove that ?
No one gets to make a claim of futility (or even detriment) and then not prove that oil where it should be is a worse thing than when it is not where it should be. To even attempt to make such a argument is truly nonsense by definition.

-As to your "clean" bottle of oil...
At face value, that analysis is compelling. What brings me back down to earth on that one is the fact that we don't know what kind of particles those are. I'm apt to believe they're nothing more than agglomerated additives rather than entirely foreign abrasive contaminants. Who's ever looked at the remains of a brand new bottle of Pennzoil for instance, lots of clearly visible particulate at the bottom of the empty jug. Harmful? I have serious doubts about XOM or Shell being that negligent to allow large abrasives in their oils and relying on the service oil filter to clean it up. Seriously, think about that.

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
The new filter itself has dirt in it,

This. I've been known to run a vacuum over the threaded hole of unsealed filters prior to installation, just because you never know with those freshly-machined works of art.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
General Motors Australia went to both a smaller filter volume and anti drain back valves because their customers in the '80s didn't like the lifter clatter on cold mornings that their customers in the 60s and 70s didn't worry about...all without ill effect in either direction


This is one of those crutch deals. It's quite like Hyundai being adamant about using their OEM (higher flow) oil filters vs say a P1. It's compensation for a defective (if in no other way than NVH) oil system. Will a Hyundai engine explode by running a P1? Probably not. Yes engines are very tolerant.

Many moons ago, we used to run high vis API SG oils in the dead of winter for an extreme short tripper. That engine did that regime at least twice a day for a decade. It started up every time, RPMs flared up to 2500 at times in extreme cold and settled at about 2000rpm seconds after. The oil filter was side mounted and usually a FRAM so plenty of lifter rattle. That engine never skipped a beat for us or the subsequent owner. No need to sell me on the durability of engines in undesirable conditions, I get it. Engines outlast the rest of the vehicle most of the time. nevertheless here I am still thinking that if I can save a few mg of wear over 20 years, I'm going to make efforts to do so.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
General Motors Australia went to both a smaller filter volume and anti drain back valves because their customers in the '80s didn't like the lifter clatter on cold mornings that their customers in the 60s and 70s didn't worry about...all without ill effect in either direction.

Ford did the same thing in North America, with the CFL1 filter without the ADBV as the originally specified one, with the FL1A with the nitrile ADBV as the upsell. The ADBV was and is nice to have, but is it more cosmetic than anything else?
 
I still don't see how it could help.

If it's vertical, the filter holds all the oil up inside the engine. Removing the filter will drain that oil and prefilling it won't replace that oil until the engine is on and the pump is turning.

Even though this is the OIL FILTER forum, I am waiting on all the diesel fuel filter pre-filler attackers... 3 2 1...
 
If not going to prefill the oil filter, when possible because of filter orientation, then why bother using a filter with an ADBV? If running an engine dry for a few seconds doesn't hurt anything why was an ADBV ever used? Just an added expense to raise the price of the filters? I know good diesel mechanics used to prefill the filters and prime the system with the starter and the fuel cut off. I think most of the short cuts these days are because the new Pepsi generation mechanics are in a hurry to get back to their video games.
 
Originally Posted By: OLEJOE
If not going to prefill the oil filter, when possible because of filter orientation, then why bother using a filter with an ADBV? If running an engine dry for a few seconds doesn't hurt anything why was an ADBV ever used? Just an added expense to raise the price of the filters?

Starting your engine like that once every OCI is different than starting it like that every time.
 
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