Amsoil Signature Series dark after only 2 weeks

[JAG]

Results are in for M1 0W-20 EP and Castrol 0W-40. The M1 was bought within the last year and the Castrol is from around 2010-2011.
Abbreviations: M1 and Castrol
M1 basically did a repeat performance of the last test. A quite large amount of varnish was scraped off from where M1 attempted to clean the varnish spot...it did NOT dissolve the varnish well. Castrol, in the other hand, behaved like Amsoil SS 5W-20 did in the previous test: it dissolved the varnish so well that the straight razor did not scrape off any varnish. I am quite shocked and disappointed in M1 0W-20 EP. I have only tested it and two other excellent oils in this way. Maybe the M1 cleaning ability is typical of modern oils sold today and oils that clean as well as Amsoil SS 5W-20 and Castrol 0W-40 are in the small minority. Or maybe the not-so-good cleaning ability of this particular M1 is in the minority. Only way to know is test a lot of oils and I’m not going to do that but I will test some oils of particular interest to me or others here. Pics follow:

Plate after creation of varnish (from M1 0W-20 EP...did not burn) and where each fresh oil was going to go.


After 24 hours of fresh M1 oil soaking and removal of oil with throttle body cleaner. No rubbing. Before scraping with straight razor.


Likewise for Castrol.


M1. After scraping half of the varnish deposit, stopped to photograph to show that the deposit literally comes off. You can see the scraping on the edge of the razor.


M1. All varnish scraped off. Got a rather large amount on the blade’s edge.


Castrol. No varnish was there in sufficient thickness to scrape off.


Entire plate. Pile of varnish that M1 could not dissolve is visible in the picture.

 

[demarpaint]

^^ Interesting. Did you use heat as well in your testing? With repeated start stop cycles, as in engine operation? That's what the Mobil 1 fans are going to ask, perhaps more.

 

[53' Stude]

JAG: THANKS for the hard work and great write up

 

[1JZ_E46]

That’s interesting, because Edge 0W-40 also has a lot of PAO. However, it’s a different type.

 

[jj51702]

Cool experiment

 

[JAG]

demarpaint, once the fresh oil was added, only room temperature was used. If neither oil could dissolve the varnish, I would have applied heat. Since two of the oils could, it shows the differentiation is ability to dissolve that I seek.

All PAOs are poor solvenst of oil degradation products. Aniline point is a good metric for predicting the solubility of the degradation products. Lower temp. result means better solubility. You can see the results of various base oils by searching online. The ingredients that can POTENTIALLY still be good at cleaning are esters, detergents, and dispersants. I have some Auto-RX that I filtered the gooey lanolin esters out of. It is purely a mix of multiple esters. I will test that in the future. I may also test Hy-per Lube polymer ester. It will help show whether esters alone can dissolve the varnish. I wish I could get PAO with only detergents and dispersants that Amsoil SS has to see if those two additives can dissolve the varnish, but that’s not obtainable.

car51 and others: you are welcome and thank you for the appreciation.

 

[pscholte]

The Elves have finally broken their silence. Since they no longer make GC they looked for an oil with the same quality heritage and made in an environment that smacks of the Black Forest. They looked at Castrol (NJ)...close but nope; M1 and PZL (TX)...nope...and they finally decided on WI based and American ingenuity driven...............Amsoil. After what they provided me in terms of lubrication quality for over 12 years and 100,000 miles with GC I shall not argue with them. (PS. Given my over 200 qt stash, 90% of that time and of those miles were the original green elixer).

 

[4ever4d]

Ok where is TIG and all the "this isn't a valid, scientific and lab constructed experiment. It's as though Amsoil is being taken seriously!

 

[JAG]

Indeed, I have heard that the wooden-clog-wearing Elves have been spotted working in an Amsoil facility. They considered retiring and just berry hunting in their spare time, but their love of creating oily elixirs brought them all the way from the Black Forest of Germany to the Wisconsin lands. They will only create the finest elixirs. Just creating bare-minimum oils is of no interest to them.

 

[pscholte]

You guys are spot on. There is not even a word in German (and now Wisconsinish) for bare-minimum. I will watch with interest the discussions of the Mobil’s and the SOPUS’s—with an admitted soft spot for the Elves former associates at Castrol—but I have to go with their new affiliation as they have never yet steered me wrong. If only ASL smelled a bit more like gummi bären...and was green. I will REALLY be disappointed if I don’t draw a comment from the Patmeister with this one. I am really curious to see what the Amsoil oil finder recommends once the new ride—2019 QX50–appears in the chart. Right now closest I can come is the 2018 Q50 4 cyl turbo for which Amsoil recommends the Euro x-40 weights. Infiniti recommends 5w-30.

 

[pscholte]

Originally Posted By: 4ever4d
Ok where is TIG and all the "this isn't a valid, scientific and lab constructed experiment. It's as though Amsoil is being taken seriously!

Come to think of it, parts of North Carolina remind one of the Black Forest.

 

[buster]

I have not kept up with the oil Joneses over the last few years. Just here and there I'll catch a glimpse of BITOG postings. My obsessive oil tendencies have waned, and I've moved on to other things to obsesses over.

I've used only Mobil 1 EP (now AFE 0w20) over the last 52k miles in the 3. (I did use M1 AP once for 3k miles but moisture/fuel dilution created a high oil level resulting in an early 6 month oil change).

I have no explanation for the results JAG has shown. Either Mobil 1 does not clean as well as the others at room temperatures, or Mobil 1 possibly needs heat to clean?? (That is unlikely I would think). M1/Castrol/Amsoil are using what appear to be similar detergents (Mg/Ca) (Mobil 1 was SN+/LSPI proof in 2010 which around when we started to notice lower TBN levels and SA.). The dispersants and base oils are different though, with Mobil likely using their touted AN's, which may or may not have something to do with the ability to clean. A pure guess. I have no answers as this is above my understanding of formulations and how oils clean in actual engines.

Thanks for the results JAG.

 

[JAG]

I baked another batch of varnish and will test Hy-per Lube Zinc Replacement (pure polymer ester) and filtered Auto-RX. Auto-RX consists of lanolin ester, aliphatic ester, and polyol ester. That should help our understanding of how well various esters can dissolve varnish. I will likely later test Maxima K2 2-stroke oil since it consists of 65-75% Trimethylolpropane tricaprylate/tricaprate ester, which I think is referred to as a TMP ester. I think this oil has no metallic-based detergents to minimize ash deposits when it burns. I suspect it does have ashless dispersants.
http://www.maximausa.com/msds/2stroke/Formula K2 SDS.pdf

 

[buster]

Nice. I’m curious how well they clean too. I’ve always been skeptical of AutoRX and Redline’s ability to clean. I’ve never seen evidence that either cleaned all that well. That can be said for all oils though. However, your results with Amsoil/Castrol have me rethinking this. I suppose it depends on the severity of deposits and overall engine condition. Preventing deposits is tested for so that we can determine.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: JAG
I baked another batch of varnish and will test Hy-per Lube Zinc Replacement (pure polymer ester) and filtered Auto-RX. Auto-RX consists of lanolin ester, aliphatic ester, and polyol ester. That should help our understanding of how well various esters can dissolve varnish. I will likely later test Maxima K2 2-stroke oil since it consists of 65-75% Trimethylolpropane tricaprylate/tricaprate ester, which I think is referred to as a TMP ester. I think this oil has no metallic-based detergents to minimize ash deposits when it burns. I suspect it does have ashless dispersants.
http://www.maximausa.com/msds/2stroke/Formula K2 SDS.pdf


Could you also try PUP or PP 0w-20? Would be nice to see how another current SN 0w-20 performs here, would I think really help see if the difference is the Euro oil blending for the two 0w-40's that sets them apart or if M1 EP 0w-20's lack of polar components in its base oil blend are atypical.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: JAG
I baked another batch of varnish and will test Hy-per Lube Zinc Replacement (pure polymer ester) and filtered Auto-RX. Auto-RX consists of lanolin ester, aliphatic ester, and polyol ester. That should help our understanding of how well various esters can dissolve varnish. I will likely later test Maxima K2 2-stroke oil since it consists of 65-75% Trimethylolpropane tricaprylate/tricaprate ester, which I think is referred to as a TMP ester. I think this oil has no metallic-based detergents to minimize ash deposits when it burns. I suspect it does have ashless dispersants.
http://www.maximausa.com/msds/2stroke/Formula K2 SDS.pdf



I'd be curious to see if LG Biotech Engine Protectant does any cleaning with their esters.

 

[4WD]

Originally Posted By: 4ever4d
Ok where is TIG and all the "this isn't a valid, scientific and lab constructed experiment. It's as though Amsoil is being taken seriously!

Tig has posted pictures with the valve cover off … is that a lesser indicator?

 

[JAG]

Overkill, I agree that that would be great to find out the answer. Other than for testing, I have no use for PP or PUP 0W-20. I will keep asking my friends if they have have some synthetic 0W-20 made my Pennzoil, Quaker State, Castrol, or Valvoline. Yes, I’m being cheap!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: JAG
Overkill, I agree that that would be great to find out the answer. Other than for testing, I have no use for PP or PUP 0W-20. I will keep asking my friends if they have have some synthetic 0W-20 made my Pennzoil, Quaker State, Castrol, or Valvoline. Yes, I’m being cheap!


I have some 5w-30 here, but it would probably be hazardous waste shipped across the border, LOL! I'll ask Rand and see if he has any that he might give up for the sake of testing

 

[JAG]

Results of filtered Auto-RX and Hy-per Lube Zinc Replacement are in. Purpose was to see if these pure esters could clean the varnish. Of course, these oils would not be used by themselves in an engine. This test does not show how well they would clean if they were additized with detergents and dispersants. Esters vary dramatically in their chemistry and behavior, so these results do not apply to esters as a class.
Abbreviations: ARX and Hy

Background: solubility tends to decrease with increasing molecular size of the solvent. The ester in Hy is of very high viscosity, so molecular size is large. For that reason, I had strong doubt that it could do much cleaning in this test.

Summary of results: Hy did a very small amount of cleaning; about the same as M1 0W-20 EP. ARX did more cleaning than Hy, but it’s not possible for me to quantify. I’d call it moderately better. Photos follow.

Varnish, pre-test and where the fresh oils were going to go.


Post-test and after oils were rinsed off. Compare this to above pic and you can see that ARX removed some of the varnish. See encircled area: after spraying with throttle body cleaner, some of the varnish that ARX dissolved pooled in the cleaner, which evaporated, causing that cleaned varnish to come out of solution. Just mentioning as FYI.


Where ARX was, there is a rather thick layer of varnish in the one spot that is shiny. It was the only spot that had a scrapable thickness of varnish.

The dark upper area where Hy was is a large area of scrapable varnish thickness.

The sticky comment refers to how it felt before scraping the varnish.

Fully scraped varnish where Hy was. Note the varnish scrapings on the blade and two small piles just below the dark area.

After fully scraping the varnish where ARX was. Note the smaller amount of varnish scrapings than Hy left behind. The sticky comment refers to how it felt before scraping.