5W-20 With Lowest Volitility NOACK Rating?

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This is the way this works...

From a base oil point of view, Di-esters usually give you the lowest Noack followed by PAO, followed by GTL, followed by normal Group IIIs. These are followed by Group I & II base oils, which can vary a lot depending on source, but should be treated as roughly equivalent and the worst.

VII polymer type & SSI will impact on Noack. For a given viscometric balance, a 5W20 based on Hydrogenated Styrene-Diene (HSD) VII will have a lower Noack than one based on cheaper, commoner Olefin Copolymer (OCP) VII. Likewise, an oil based on high SSI (ie more shearable) VII will give you a lower Noack than the same VII with a lower SSI (typically used in European oils).

Oils that contain a lot of DI additive will have a higher Noack than ones that contain less DI. Typically, European PCMOs (which are formulated to handle both gasoline & diesel) have higher DI treats and directional have higher Noacks than say US gasoline-only PCMOs.

Finally (and this is a biggie so pay attention!) whether a 5W20 is blended viscometrically 'tight' or 'slack' has a HUGE impact on its Noack. At the extreme, a tight 5W20 will have a KV100 of 6.91 cst and a CCS-30 of 6,599 cP. At the other end of the scale, a 'slack' 5W20 might have a KV100 of 9.29 cst and a CCS-30 of say 3,301 cP (if it goes much lower, it risks becoming a 0W20). Both of these oils are valid 5W20s yet the latter slack oil will have a much higher Noack than the tight oil. US ILSAC oils tend to be slacker than the equivalent API oil. Euro oils tend to be tight in general.

So in summary, for the lowest practical Noack, you want a 5W20 blended with a mix of Di-ester & PAO, formulated with a high SSI HSD VII and a low DI treat Add Pack (say SL) that's blended tight by someone who understands how to do these things properly (like me!). Failing that, look for 5W20 oils from Redline or Amsoil.

Having said all that, I personally wouldn't obsess about using the absolutely lowest Noack 5W20 oil I could get my hands on. My primary beef about Noack is that in the US, you can still find oils with close to the 15% Noack limit. This is TOO HIGH!! A more sensible limit is 13% max as this forces out the most volatile light base oils which do so much damage to oil control rings. A better limit, if you intend to keep your car going for decades might be 10% max. Beyond 10% then benefits of lower Noack I'd judge to be marginal and probably not worth the on-cost. The way to philosophically rationalise this is that Noack-wise, life is not about coming first; it's about not coming last...
 
SonofJoe - thanks for your comments, very informative.
 
Thanks, SonofJoe!

Few questions:

1. Where do polyol esters and ANs fit in here?

2. SSI = Shear Stability Index, right?

3. Could you say more about why those more volatile light base oils are so bad for oil control rings?
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Thanks, SonofJoe!

Few questions:

1. Where do polyol esters and ANs fit in here?

2. SSI = Shear Stability Index, right?

3. Could you say more about why those more volatile light base oils are so bad for oil control rings?


1. When I said 'diesters' I was actually referring to dialkyl polyol esters. My bad!

2. Correct on SSI.

3.As I see it, the 'problem' base oils are the first generation 4 cst Group II stocks. Typically these base oils have a Noack of 26% which is stupidly high for any engine oil. The only way you can get any of this stuff in say a Group II 5W30 is by setting the Noack spec at 15% max. Drop the spec to 13% max and it would force a lot of this stuff out or require you to put in synthetic (which drops Noack).
 
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: eyeofthetiger
I was trying to find this information for multiple oils, and settled on Valvoline with 7.6% NOACK. I couldn't find test numbers for half the oils I was looking up Also, the 9.3 TBN is pretty good, and it's only $22/5qts.


Is that their 'new formula' "Modern Engine Oil" marketed for T/GDI setups?

Is there an additional Ford oil spec for your engine needed to be compatible with the oil contact timing belt, or is it the same 945-A as they require for my 1.6 which uses a dry timing belt?


I checked the Ford spec in my owner's manual ... I cannot remember it off the top of my head ... and Valvoline SynPower lists the spec. I don't know if the formula changed at all with the new bottle design and dropping of the "SynPower" name.
 
THANK YOU SonofJoe!!
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You finally brought to light an actual technical name for the high grade, much more shear resistant VIIs!
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I am hopefully on the right track in choosing the Ravenol DSG 5W-30 for my EcoBoost's summer OCI (even though the '16 manual still specs a 945-A 5W-20, unlike the latter '17s/'18s, and all of the 'rest of world' manuals "allow" a 5W-30).
IF one goes by HTHSV and not cST @100*C, it is one of the 'thinner' 5W-30s @ a 3.1 HTHSV.

It checks all of the boxes you've identified above (POE/PAO base stock, low D1G2 DI pack, I'm not sure how many nor what type of VIIs they use, but I will take for granted it is the better one, and not too much of it at that, this being a 'premium' oil) save for not being a 'viscometrically tight' blended oil at a 10.7 cSt @100 and 3990 CCS @-30, but somehow manages a 6.0 NOACK anyway.
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Same with QSUD 10w-30. Mid 5s NOACK. Maybe this was its even better cousin in a lighter weight? I wonder if this can be had on clearance at AZ or AAP and is it still discontinued a Wally World? I got one more Honda 0w-20 full oil change as well as 38 qts of IDemitsu 0w-20s in various quarts and big jugs. Plan on using Fram ultra!! can;t wait, synthetic oil with synthetic media!! twin power!!

The thing about NOACK is this...what if your car doesn't run warm although I would be incredulous with my small displacement turbo engine, for they could always benefit from lower NOACK? I believe we aren't talking about warm as in with a human hand touching the outside of an engine but much hotter? I would think a small displacement turbo engine could benefit from low NOACK.
 
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Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
The discontinued Pennzoil Ultra had the lowest NOACK 5W-20 I've seen at 5.0%.

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_24855_key_140007304052_201207271342.pdf

I have 2 qts of this I snagged at a WM clearance I plan to blend with 5 qts PUP 5W-20 next O/FCI for my truck.


Except it isn't discontinued if you can just plan ahead two weeks. I got two jugs for $19.98 each and a rebate on each of $10 in December.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Pennzoil-Ultra-Platinum-5W20-SN-Full-Synthetic-Motor-Oil-5-quart/55291207
 
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Originally Posted By: JohnnyJohnson
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
The discontinued Pennzoil Ultra had the lowest NOACK 5W-20 I've seen at 5.0%.

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_24855_key_140007304052_201207271342.pdf

I have 2 qts of this I snagged at a WM clearance I plan to blend with 5 qts PUP 5W-20 next O/FCI for my truck.


Except it isn't discontinued if you can just plan ahead two weeks. I got two jugs for $19.98 each and a rebate on each of $10 in December.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Pennzoil-Ultra-Platinum-5W20-SN-Full-Synthetic-Motor-Oil-5-quart/55291207





Yes but it’s not the same formulation nor Noack value.
 
What is the noack for the latest Ultra Platinum 5w20? I don't see it on the Pennzoil site, and that's the oil I bought to go in my Honda next.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Thanks, SonofJoe!

Few questions:

3. Could you say more about why those more volatile light base oils are so bad for oil control rings?


What determines volatility? NOACK?
 
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Originally Posted By: JohnnyJohnson
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
The discontinued Pennzoil Ultra had the lowest NOACK 5W-20 I've seen at 5.0%.

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_24855_key_140007304052_201207271342.pdf

I have 2 qts of this I snagged at a WM clearance I plan to blend with 5 qts PUP 5W-20 next O/FCI for my truck.


Except it isn't discontinued if you can just plan ahead two weeks. I got two jugs for $19.98 each and a rebate on each of $10 in December.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Pennzoil-Ultra-Platinum-5W20-SN-Full-Synthetic-Motor-Oil-5-quart/55291207


You are confusing Pennzoil Ultra Platinum with the discontinued Pennzoil Ultra. Here is a BITOG thread on Pennzoil Ultra, discontinued with the rollout of PurePlus Technology base oils from Shell /SOPUS. Note the difference in packaging of the discontinued Pennzoil Ultra and the packaging of Pennzoil Ultra Platinum.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2942604/Pennzoil_Ultra_Euro_5w-40_arri

Examine the two different Technical Data Sheets I posted links to and you can see the difference in test results. For NOACK, discontinued PU 5W-20 = 5.0%; currently available PUP 5W-20 = 10.5%.
 
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Perhaps PU had a superior base stock to PUP.

One thing for sure is additive package can make a difference. The published NOACK value of current 5W-20 Pennzoil Platinum is 8.4%, which is 2.1% less than current PUP. Pre-PurePlus technology Pennzoil Platinum 5W-20 had a published NOACK value of 12.8%.

Pennzoil Platinum 2011 TDS Link
 
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
Perhaps PU had a superior base stock to PUP.

One thing for sure is additive package can make a difference. The published NOACK value of current 5W-20 Pennzoil Platinum is 8.4%, which is 2.1% less than current PUP. Pre-PurePlus technology Pennzoil Platinum 5W-20 had a published NOACK value of 12.8%.

Pennzoil Platinum 2011 TDS Link


I must be overlooking the current NOACK values for PP and PUP. Where can you find those #'s at?
 
Originally Posted By: klt1986
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
Perhaps PU had a superior base stock to PUP.

One thing for sure is additive package can make a difference. The published NOACK value of current 5W-20 Pennzoil Platinum is 8.4%, which is 2.1% less than current PUP. Pre-PurePlus technology Pennzoil Platinum 5W-20 had a published NOACK value of 12.8%.

Pennzoil Platinum 2011 TDS Link


I must be overlooking the current NOACK values for PP and PUP. Where can you find those #'s at?


SOPUS published NOACK loss results for PP and PUP when they were first introduced, but those numbers quickly disappeared from their website.
I was only interested in the 5W30s and PP was advertised as 10% NOACK loss with PUP at 11%...all I could guess was all those extra cleaning additives they boasted about in the PUP were a bit more volatile? Believe that I saw independent testing at the time that showed PP 5W30 at 9% and PUP 5W30 at 10%.
Nothing like that killer PU 5W30 at something like 6%!!

I think it's quite likely that the PP dexos1 Gen 2 oils were reformulated for the new standard and test results more than about a year old are probably not applicable anymore...PUP is not Gen 2 and who knows if they have changed or not.
 
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