2016 ford flex water pump and timing replacement

I don’t understand the resistance to joining a Ford Flex specific site. They are unique in many ways which you will find out. Really I no longer care, the lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink thinking appears to be going on here. Whatever.

You are about to do a very complicated self repair and you can get advice from Ford Flex experts (Waldo on the Flex site is one) so you don’t go down the wrong path. Or stick to this site where maybe someone knows someone who once owned a Flex and will tell you you shouldn’t have bought a Ford! 😇
I’ve had ford techs chime in on both of my post. Waldo isn’t the only person who may know. And I scrolled that forum recently. There isn’t much action over there.

I don’t think I’ve seen anyone so upset that I won’t join the 100th forum I’ve come along, I didn’t say I wouldn’t but I happen to belong to a couple forums that are littered with service techs and car enthusiasts. Perhaps the flex forum isn’t the only one Waldo is on also.

It’s not a real complicated job, it’s labor intensive but simple common knowledge of how engines work and you’ll be fine.
 
I’ve had ford techs chime in on both of my post. Waldo isn’t the only person who may know. And I scrolled that forum recently. There isn’t much action over there.

I don’t think I’ve seen anyone so upset that I won’t join the 100th forum I’ve come along, I didn’t say I wouldn’t but I happen to belong to a couple forums that are littered with service techs and car enthusiasts. Perhaps the flex forum isn’t the only one Waldo is on also.

It’s not a real complicated job, it’s labor intensive but simple common knowledge of how engines work and you’ll be fine.
I’m not upset, as a Flex owner I am trying to help and give you guidance and a great resource. These cars are unicorns.

The www.fordflex.net site is ONLY concerned about Ford Flex issues. Some fluff but most is serious how to fix this advice. Usually there are 3-7 new post every day. I’d say that is a very active site for a car last sold in 2019 and even then in very low numbers. And it doesn’t matter if a post is 6 years old if it concerns the engine you are about to work on.

It’s all good, have fun and I hope it all goes well. Post pictures, I’d like to see the job progression.
 
I just bought this 2016 flex 3.5NA car for my wife. It just rolled 100k and I wanted to stay on the PM side of things. I know the water pump and timing chains are issues with these engines. I was contemplating doing it myself. I am mechanically inclined and feel confident doing the job. I’m asking anything important I should know. The OEM a timing set is on national back order so I’m looking at the Melling Professional set, then OEM water pump unless someone suggests a solid alternative. I’m not sure what I need for seals and gaskets. I understand the crank bolt should be replaced as well. What about antifreeze? I’m not sure what’s in it currently. What should go back in it?

And of course I’d like to hear thoughts on this job. The car is low mileage, the timing set isn’t making any noise but I figured if I’m in there why not. Or should I wait til the pump starts seeping which I know it can fail internally as well which would be catastrophic.

Also this will be posted over on GJ forum if anyone sees it doubly posted, I like an array of feedback.
This job me mechanically totalled my mom's old 2010 Taurus. We ended up selling it to a mechanic I used to work with, who is extremely capable. He did it in the shop on his spare time. He said he nearly said screw it and gave up, cause it was such an involved job, but he stuck with it and finished it. He's still driving it today actually. I wouldn't recommend this job to anyone but experts. He also had to buy special tools specifically for this job and they weren't cheap.
 
I just bought this 2016 flex 3.5NA car for my wife. It just rolled 100k and I wanted to stay on the PM side of things. I know the water pump and timing chains are issues with these engines. I was contemplating doing it myself. I am mechanically inclined and feel confident doing the job. I’m asking anything important I should know. The OEM a timing set is on national back order so I’m looking at the Melling Professional set, then OEM water pump unless someone suggests a solid alternative. I’m not sure what I need for seals and gaskets. I understand the crank bolt should be replaced as well. What about antifreeze? I’m not sure what’s in it currently. What should go back in it?

And of course I’d like to hear thoughts on this job. The car is low mileage, the timing set isn’t making any noise but I figured if I’m in there why not. Or should I wait til the pump starts seeping which I know it can fail internally as well which would be catastrophic.

Also this will be posted over on GJ forum if anyone sees it doubly posted, I like an array of feedback.
Dont do it :)
You get a warning that it starts to fail by pump leaking on the outside before leaking inside and blowing up the engine. If you do go forth with it get a new timing chain and related parts. Put a new oil pump in there too, they make higher volume ones that should have been put on there in the first place.

Don't do it. Keep an eye on oil color and water pump leak. It may fail at 80k it may fail at 280k. Depends on luck and how well the oil has been maintained since thats what the water pump sits in and keeps the seals "clean".
 
I've said this before but there's a 4-part video series by "John Can Fix Anything" on YT. That's primarily what I referenced for an '07 CX-9 (Edge 99% identical)

I'd reco watching it. He's just a normal guy in a normal house garage. He makes a huge mistake using cheap import parts from Amazon, but don't let that alone discredit him -- the tech is solid and the explanations pretty good.

DO order the special tools to lock the cams. They're inexpensive.

Also on a Melling chain the two links for the cams stand out but the link for the crank is silver and initially hard to distinguish. Once you find it, you'll know, but at first glance it's not obvious.

You may also need a different bolt if you have the pre-update chain guides.

It's a kinda big job but can be tackled by anyone with a solid set of tools and mechanical aptitude. Take your time and don't panic. But also respect the job and don't think it's like swapping an alternator. Allow yourself a couple days plus a cushion. The most terrifying moment is turning the key the first time after completion ;)
 
I've said this before but there's a 4-part video series by "John Can Fix Anything" on YT. That's primarily what I referenced for an '07 CX-9 (Edge 99% identical)

I'd reco watching it. He's just a normal guy in a normal house garage. He makes a huge mistake using cheap import parts from Amazon, but don't let that alone discredit him -- the tech is solid and the explanations pretty good.

DO order the special tools to lock the cams. They're inexpensive.

Also on a Melling chain the two links for the cams stand out but the link for the crank is silver and initially hard to distinguish. Once you find it, you'll know, but at first glance it's not obvious.

You may also need a different bolt if you have the pre-update chain guides.

It's a kinda big job but can be tackled by anyone with a solid set of tools and mechanical aptitude. Take your time and don't panic. But also respect the job and don't think it's like swapping an alternator. Allow yourself a couple days plus a cushion. The most terrifying moment is turning the key the first time after completion ;)
Not sure what you're laughing it. This is 100% an above average difficulty job. The tech I mentioned is one of the best ones I had experience with over the several years I worked in service. I'm sure you're going to say I'm an idiot and anyone can do it...but if some shops will refuse the job, it's going to be a real pain for a DIYer in his own garage, with less access to tools than a full service shop.
 
Not sure what you're laughing it. This is 100% an above average difficulty job. The tech I mentioned is one of the best ones I had experience with over the several years I worked in service. I'm sure you're going to say I'm an idiot and anyone can do it...but if some shops will refuse the job, it's going to be a real pain for a DIYer in his own garage, with less access to tools than a full service shop

There is a local garage to me that won’t do them and they are one of the busiest shops in the city. The owner is friends of the family. He farms out these water pumps to me on the side. Not sure if it’s because he doesn’t want the down time or because he doesn’t really want the liability but I don’t complain.
 
I've said this before but there's a 4-part video series by "John Can Fix Anything" on YT. That's primarily what I referenced for an '07 CX-9 (Edge 99% identical)

I'd reco watching it. He's just a normal guy in a normal house garage. He makes a huge mistake using cheap import parts from Amazon, but don't let that alone discredit him -- the tech is solid and the explanations pretty good.

DO order the special tools to lock the cams. They're inexpensive.

Also on a Melling chain the two links for the cams stand out but the link for the crank is silver and initially hard to distinguish. Once you find it, you'll know, but at first glance it's not obvious.

You may also need a different bolt if you have the pre-update chain guides.

It's a kinda big job but can be tackled by anyone with a solid set of tools and mechanical aptitude. Take your time and don't panic. But also respect the job and don't think it's like swapping an alternator. Allow yourself a couple days plus a cushion. The most terrifying moment is turning the key the first time after completion ;)
Well we will see. I am definitely watching this to see the outcome. The tech I mentioned is the guy I would want working on my truck if it was a difficult job. And he wanted to quit this job because he didn't think it was work it. I know from your posts here that you believe your opinions are better than everyone elses. I think your love for this vehicle (judging by the push for this guy to join a forum) has clouded your judgement. You love this car so much that anyone saying anything negative (because this pos engine negatively affected my family big time) you feel the need to make them look wrong.
 
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Well we will see. I am definitely watching this to see the outcome. The tech I mentioned is the guy I would want working on my truck if it was a difficult job. And he wanted to quit this job because he didn't think it was work it. I know from your posts here that you believe your opinions are better than everyone elses. I think your love for this vehicle (judging by the push for this guy to join a forum) has clouded your judgement. You love this car so much that anyone saying anything negative (because this pos engine negatively affected my family big time) you feel the need to make them look wrong.
All I know is this one time my opinion is better than yours because I'm not pushing anyone to join any forum. I never suggested the Flex-whatever forum that has apparently been mentioned.

I don't own a Flex, Edge, Mazda or anything else with this engine and I don't like SUV's in general. I don't think they're great vehicles and I think the 3.5 water pump design is stooopid.

That said I'd suggest you could click on my user ID and add me to your Ignore List.
 
All I know is this one time my opinion is better than yours because I'm not pushing anyone to join any forum. I never suggested the Flex-whatever forum that has apparently been mentioned.

I don't own a Flex, Edge, Mazda or anything else with this engine and I don't like SUV's in general. I don't think they're great vehicles and I think the 3.5 water pump design is stooopid.

That said I'd suggest you could click on my user ID and add me to your Ignore List.
You're right I should put you on the ignore list. I assumed you were defending these vehicles because it seems like you may be setting someone up for failure... making it sound like it's a pretty easy job or something like that. Not sure exactly what's going through your head other than you like using the crying laughing emoji because you apparently think I'm wrong and that anyone can do this job? I assume you're a good mechanic if you do these jobs frequently, but a good people person, you are not. Lol.
 
Enough of the bickering.


As for the engine series, the Cyclone engines are actually quite impressive. Smooth, quiet and reasonably powerful. The n/a versions have proven to be very low-wearing and clean running. I've owned two of them in identical Taurus cars, and was very impressed overall with the drivetrain performance.

While some folks would say it's "stoooopid" to put the pump internally, it was a packaging issue. There was no way to make a crank driven external pump work. Ford isn't the only company to make an internal water pump engine; they're just the most recent example, and therefore draw the ire of BITOGers.

Anyone who understands the engine series knows the transverse applications make for a VERY difficult water pump replacement. It's time consuming, and therefore costly (labor rates). The parts themselves (pump, idler, chain are typically done at the same time) aren't grossly offensive in prices.

In n/s (longitudinal) applications the n/a versions are as reliable as granite; the pump is external and much easier to change.



Part of the problem is that once that pump starts to go, it can escalate quickly. Often it can happen faster than then occasional UOA would detect. So it's imperative that you check the coolant level frequently, as well as the oil appearance on the dipstick and under the filler cap for signs of excess condensation. If the pump leaks externally, it's a problem. If it leaks internally, it's impending doom! Either way, it's a mandatory replacement, obviously.

The later models of these engines use a double-roller chain type drive; that supposedly makes for a slightly longer lifespan of the pump (I'm not assured this is true; but that's the claim). Failures can happen at any time. Some have failed as early as 75k miles. Oddly, others are fine out to 250k miles. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to the life-span.


I have heard people say that frequent coolant changes help extend the life of the pump. I see no data to prove this; it's only theory.
And IMO, it's a bad theory. The coolant pumps typically fail because of bearing failure (as do most pumps). That in turn leads to a shaft going into an eccentric wobble, and then destroying the shaft seal. Then it's leak city ... So in "normal" operation, the coolant stays on one side of the seal, and the oil on the other. The oil is what lubricates the pump shaft bearing, not the coolant. So why would frequent coolant changes have any effect on the pump bearing life-span????????? The coolant change theory is flawed IMO, but it's a pervasive one, the lack of logic notwithstanding.
 
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Enough of the bickering.


As for the engine series, the Cyclone engines are actually quite impressive. Smooth, quiet and reasonably powerful. The n/a versions have proven to be very low-wearing and clean running. I've owned two of them in identical Taurus cars, and was very impressed overall with the drivetrain performance.

While some folks would say it's "stoooopid" to put the pump internally, it was a packaging issue. There was no way to make a crank driven external pump work. Ford isn't the only company to make an internal water pump engine; they're just the most recent example, and therefore draw the ire of BITOGers.

Anyone who understands the engine series knows the transverse applications make for a VERY difficult water pump replacement. It's time consuming, and therefore costly (labor rates). The parts themselves (pump, idler, chain are typically done at the same time) aren't grossly offensive in prices.

In n/s (longitudinal) applications the n/a versions are as reliable as granite; the pump is external and much easier to change.



Part of the problem is that once that pump starts to go, it can escalate quickly. Often it can happen faster than then occasional UOA would detect. So it's imperative that you check the coolant level frequently, as well as the oil appearance on the dipstick and under the filler cap for signs of excess condensation. If the pump leaks externally, it's a problem. If it leaks internally, it's impending doom! Either way, it's a mandatory replacement, obviously.

The later models of these engines use a double-roller chain type drive; that supposedly makes for a slightly longer lifespan of the pump (I'm not assured this is true; but that's the claim). Failures can happen at any time. Some have failed as early as 75k miles. Oddly, others are fine out to 250k miles. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to the life-span.


I have heard people say that frequent coolant changes help extend the life of the pump. I see no data to prove this; it's only theory.
And IMO, it's a bad theory. The coolant pumps typically fail because of bearing failure (as do most pumps). That in turn leads to a shaft going into an eccentric wobble, and then destroying the shaft seal. Then it's leak city ... So in "normal" operation, the coolant stays on one side of the seal, and the oil on the other. The oil is what lubricates the pump shaft bearing, not the coolant. So why would frequent coolant changes have any effect on the pump bearing life-span????????? The coolant change theory is flawed IMO, but it's a pervasive one, the lack of logic notwithstanding.
I wish all manufacturers of engines with an internal water pump would instead mount the WP externally, remotely if required, to be belt-driven as are the alternator, PS, and AC compressor.

Where that's not possible, a remote electric WP could work.
 
how anyone who knows of the desighn on these cars and still buy one is beyond me
Often Ford makes models that cost less than competitors in the same segment, so if you save a few thousand up front, compound the interest on money saved over time, and plan to get rid of it before it hits ~100-150K mi, it can make sense, or if the buyer just recognizes they should replace the water pump before it fails and factors that ~$2500 eventual expense into cost of ownership.

It is a bad design and yet, there are millions of vehicles out there with the 3.5L/3.7L transverse (internal water pump) engines. It's no surprise that many thousands eventually fail before something else puts them in the junkyard.

At the very least, they should have scrambled to put some sensor in to detect coolant leakage or pump wobble. That "might" not require extensive engineering to do.
 
I would disagree; it is not a "bad" design. It's a design choice, relative to the packaging issues they face in transverse applications. The design is a compromise of other criteria and pump location. It's a design that works great; functionally there's nothing wrong with the pump. It is also, obviously, a design choice that has major cost implications when it's time for replacement. Often, given that most of these pumps last 150k miles or so, the average person would be 10 years into ownership, and the vehicle isn't even in the first owner's hands. So the cost is deferred two or three owners down the road.

It's not like other cars didn't have some Achilles heel design that was expensive to work on. What about the oil-bath belts of several engine designs? Of note is the "new" 3.0L Duramax engine that has the oil pump driven from a wet-bath belt at the back of the engine; it necessitates pulling the transmission out of the truck to service the belt. Again - it's a design choice, and the cost will probably end up into the 2nd or 3rd owner's hands.

What about ball-joints and u-joints and bearings which are sealed, and therefore non-serviceable? Are those "bad" designs? Not really. They are a design choice.

I agree in general; I'd rather have an external water pump, even if it meant a remote drive system. But that's not what Ford chose to use. But that doesn't make it "bad"; only expensive to R&R.
 
It's not like other cars didn't have some Achilles heel design that was expensive to work on.
Yes, other bad designs do not excuse this one, but you do have a point in that any vehicle has its weaknesses. We should strive to eliminate those instead of accepting them.

They can use CAD designs to cram as much as possible into a smaller space, but ultimately it boils down to saving what, about 2" space in the engine bay? There are plenty of transverse engines with external water pumps, that cost about $50 and an hour or two to replace, and don't trash the engine when they fail, unless the driver ignores the dash temperature warning.

Right to repair should not just be about having the information and parts, but also making things more reasonably repairable, so we don't continue to waste either money or resources sending things to landfills, only to have to manufacturer and buy an entire new vehicle to replace it. Out of the millions of vehicles with these engines, there will be a lot that get junked when they would have had years of service remaining otherwise, because of the cost to replace the water pump.
 
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142k on my 09 Flex, I pop the hood and eyeball the coolant resevoir everytime i get gas. Has not changed level in the 2 years since I last flushed the cooling system. Not going to touch the water pump...my Fords love me 🤣😇
 
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