2 oil changes per filter
- Thread starter ragtoplvr
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Originally Posted by slacktide_bitog
If you're going to reuse the filter for more than one OCI, leave it on and don't take it off.
Once you unscrew the filter, replace it
Yep. Once you break the seal of the gasket against the engine block, it's compromised, and should not go back on.
It's unlikely the filter holds more than a cup or so of old oil, anyways.
If you're going to reuse the filter for more than one OCI, leave it on and don't take it off.
Once you unscrew the filter, replace it
Yep. Once you break the seal of the gasket against the engine block, it's compromised, and should not go back on.
It's unlikely the filter holds more than a cup or so of old oil, anyways.
Originally Posted by UncleDave
It makes little sense to worry more about the small amount left in the filter than than the larger amount left elsewhere inside the engine.
Some filters contain almost a quart, and on some engines, a good bit of oil drains out of the oil galleries when the filter is removed.
On some engines some oil drains into the pan as soon as the filter is removed. It's not a given that an engine and it's oil galleries contain much oil at all. Some engines simply don't have much oil remaining.
It makes little sense to worry more about the small amount left in the filter than than the larger amount left elsewhere inside the engine.
Some filters contain almost a quart, and on some engines, a good bit of oil drains out of the oil galleries when the filter is removed.
On some engines some oil drains into the pan as soon as the filter is removed. It's not a given that an engine and it's oil galleries contain much oil at all. Some engines simply don't have much oil remaining.
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Originally Posted by Cujet
Originally Posted by UncleDave
It makes little sense to worry more about the small amount left in the filter than than the larger amount left elsewhere inside the engine.
Some filters contain almost a quart, and on some engines, a good bit of oil drains out of the oil galleries when the filter is removed.
On some engines some oil drains into the pan as soon as the filter is removed. It's not a given that an engine and it's oil galleries contain much oil at all. Some engines simply don't have much oil remaining.
I have also noticed this on my wife's Impala. I normally remove the drain plug before I remove the filter. When the oil has started falling straight into my oil drain pan that is when I usually remove the filter. Once the filter has been broken free, I usually get another strong more steady stream come out of the drain hole for a few seconds after.
I am unsure how much oil her XG10575 holds, but if I had to guess, I'd say likely around 400-500 mls?
The TG2 on my Ram is a big filter! I am pretty sure it holds at least 700 to 1000 mils, or almost 1 ltr, when it is in use and completely saturated.
I have also noticed, once the oil on my Ram, and my wife's car for that matter is out, when the filters are removed, more oil dumps from the mounting area as well.
My wife's filter fits horizontally with a slight tilt to the good side but my Ram's TG 2 resides vertically. Where is that oil coming from? Its definitely not the filter in my Rams case but more than likely some residing just on the other side of it in the block/gallery.
Originally Posted by UncleDave
It makes little sense to worry more about the small amount left in the filter than than the larger amount left elsewhere inside the engine.
Some filters contain almost a quart, and on some engines, a good bit of oil drains out of the oil galleries when the filter is removed.
On some engines some oil drains into the pan as soon as the filter is removed. It's not a given that an engine and it's oil galleries contain much oil at all. Some engines simply don't have much oil remaining.
I have also noticed this on my wife's Impala. I normally remove the drain plug before I remove the filter. When the oil has started falling straight into my oil drain pan that is when I usually remove the filter. Once the filter has been broken free, I usually get another strong more steady stream come out of the drain hole for a few seconds after.
I am unsure how much oil her XG10575 holds, but if I had to guess, I'd say likely around 400-500 mls?
The TG2 on my Ram is a big filter! I am pretty sure it holds at least 700 to 1000 mils, or almost 1 ltr, when it is in use and completely saturated.
I have also noticed, once the oil on my Ram, and my wife's car for that matter is out, when the filters are removed, more oil dumps from the mounting area as well.
My wife's filter fits horizontally with a slight tilt to the good side but my Ram's TG 2 resides vertically. Where is that oil coming from? Its definitely not the filter in my Rams case but more than likely some residing just on the other side of it in the block/gallery.
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Originally Posted by Cujet
there are aircraft engines that have 100 hour oil change intervals. People tend to find that the oil is due for change at 25 hours.......... the reason for an oil change is generally to drain out contaminates. These contaminants include carbon, fuel and combustion byproducts, moisture and so on.
In Piston Engine aircraft...
LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS OF LEAD!!!
there are aircraft engines that have 100 hour oil change intervals. People tend to find that the oil is due for change at 25 hours.......... the reason for an oil change is generally to drain out contaminates. These contaminants include carbon, fuel and combustion byproducts, moisture and so on.
In Piston Engine aircraft...
LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS OF LEAD!!!
Originally Posted by UncleDave
It makes little sense to worry more about the small amount left in the filter than than the larger amount left elsewhere inside the engine.
UD
I agree UncleDave....
In my car it takes 156 ozs of oil... But when filter is left on I only have to replace about 144 ozs of oil and sometimes less than that.. It is less than 10% of old oil is left behind. No biggie.
And filters hold more than one might think.. I know on my step father's Ford F 250 that whoomping thing held 2 qts I think... It was huge. Even my 57356 holds 12 ozs..
It makes little sense to worry more about the small amount left in the filter than than the larger amount left elsewhere inside the engine.
UD
I agree UncleDave....
In my car it takes 156 ozs of oil... But when filter is left on I only have to replace about 144 ozs of oil and sometimes less than that.. It is less than 10% of old oil is left behind. No biggie.
And filters hold more than one might think.. I know on my step father's Ford F 250 that whoomping thing held 2 qts I think... It was huge. Even my 57356 holds 12 ozs..
Originally Posted by SirTanon
Yep. Once you break the seal of the gasket against the engine block, it's compromised, and should not go back on.
It's unlikely the filter holds more than a cup or so of old oil, anyways.
What kind of filter gasket was that fragile? As far as any filter I ever reused, that's a myth. They didn't leak the second time, or the third. I didn't grossly overtighten them the way some folks like to do.
Most older spin-on filters on American cars held close to a quart of oil. Now we're down to teacup-size filters, as you say.
Spin-on filters with functional anti-drain-back valves don't drain very well unless you do something to allow air into the oil-filled space outside the media.
Yep. Once you break the seal of the gasket against the engine block, it's compromised, and should not go back on.
It's unlikely the filter holds more than a cup or so of old oil, anyways.
What kind of filter gasket was that fragile? As far as any filter I ever reused, that's a myth. They didn't leak the second time, or the third. I didn't grossly overtighten them the way some folks like to do.
Most older spin-on filters on American cars held close to a quart of oil. Now we're down to teacup-size filters, as you say.
Spin-on filters with functional anti-drain-back valves don't drain very well unless you do something to allow air into the oil-filled space outside the media.
Originally Posted by CR94
Spin-on filters with functional anti-drain-back valves don't drain very well unless you do something to allow air into the oil-filled space outside the media.
Yep, need to pry open the ADBV and then the oil will drain from inside the can out the center tube. And that even makes it more of a pain to remove and drain a used oil filter for reuse.
Originally Posted by CR94
What kind of filter gasket was that fragile? As far as any filter I ever reused, that's a myth. They didn't leak the second time, or the third. I didn't grossly overtighten them the way some folks like to do.
I don't crank filters down very tight either, usually 3/4 turn. But every flat type gasket I've seen after the filter has been used is definitely squashed down pretty good into a permanent set.
Spin-on filters with functional anti-drain-back valves don't drain very well unless you do something to allow air into the oil-filled space outside the media.
Yep, need to pry open the ADBV and then the oil will drain from inside the can out the center tube. And that even makes it more of a pain to remove and drain a used oil filter for reuse.
Originally Posted by CR94
What kind of filter gasket was that fragile? As far as any filter I ever reused, that's a myth. They didn't leak the second time, or the third. I didn't grossly overtighten them the way some folks like to do.
I don't crank filters down very tight either, usually 3/4 turn. But every flat type gasket I've seen after the filter has been used is definitely squashed down pretty good into a permanent set.
Triple_Se7en
$50 Site Donor 2024
Originally Posted by irv
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Irv
Please declare what non-serviceable, no longer usable oil is?
I'll bet less than 10% of us are in that category, as we empty our used oil pans and toss our filters away.
Most of us change oil and filters - with plenty of use still left. Probably 90% of what gets changed is still serviceable for thousands of miles.
Average filter is lucky to hold 6-7 ounces of oil anyways. That's peanuts and irrelevant in today's vehicles that average 5-6 quarts.
Oil that, in the opinion of the owner or the OLM, reads that it is time to change it.
I agree, most oil is likely still serviceable when it comes out, but, imo, like I already stated, if you are doing an oil change, isn't the purpose of that to get as much used oil out as possible?
I usually drain my vehicles for around 1/2 hour to get as much out as possible. Time and other factors come into play that I don't go longer, but I feel good that my oil is down to a drip every 5 seconds or so.
Leaving a used oil filter on, with dirty oil in it, makes no sense to me as I see no reason to let our vehicles engines drain for any longer than necessary. I've read on here how some will go longer to ensure they have gotten the most out as possible but have chosen to run their filters for 2 or OC's or longer?
Like I said, I guess I am old school?
If I install six quarts, but leave seven ounces in from my old filter, how much does that shorten my next OCI. I can still do 7K OCIs and never wear out my synthetic oils.
32 x 6 = 192
192
-07
-----
185 brand new ounces.
I never run an OCI beyond 7K. Even 7 is rare. I most-all times run 6K OCIs. and run that filter for 12K ( two 6K OCIs).
So leaving seven old ounces in the engine DOES NOT hinder nor hurt my OCI. Nor does 6=7K OCIs wear out my oil or filter. My rusted-out vehicles go to junkyards 17-18 years later with clear dipsticks.
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Irv
Please declare what non-serviceable, no longer usable oil is?
I'll bet less than 10% of us are in that category, as we empty our used oil pans and toss our filters away.
Most of us change oil and filters - with plenty of use still left. Probably 90% of what gets changed is still serviceable for thousands of miles.
Average filter is lucky to hold 6-7 ounces of oil anyways. That's peanuts and irrelevant in today's vehicles that average 5-6 quarts.
Oil that, in the opinion of the owner or the OLM, reads that it is time to change it.
I agree, most oil is likely still serviceable when it comes out, but, imo, like I already stated, if you are doing an oil change, isn't the purpose of that to get as much used oil out as possible?
I usually drain my vehicles for around 1/2 hour to get as much out as possible. Time and other factors come into play that I don't go longer, but I feel good that my oil is down to a drip every 5 seconds or so.
Leaving a used oil filter on, with dirty oil in it, makes no sense to me as I see no reason to let our vehicles engines drain for any longer than necessary. I've read on here how some will go longer to ensure they have gotten the most out as possible but have chosen to run their filters for 2 or OC's or longer?
Like I said, I guess I am old school?
If I install six quarts, but leave seven ounces in from my old filter, how much does that shorten my next OCI. I can still do 7K OCIs and never wear out my synthetic oils.
32 x 6 = 192
192
-07
-----
185 brand new ounces.
I never run an OCI beyond 7K. Even 7 is rare. I most-all times run 6K OCIs. and run that filter for 12K ( two 6K OCIs).
So leaving seven old ounces in the engine DOES NOT hinder nor hurt my OCI. Nor does 6=7K OCIs wear out my oil or filter. My rusted-out vehicles go to junkyards 17-18 years later with clear dipsticks.
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
... 32 x 6 = 192
192
-07
-----
185 brand new ounces. ...
I never run an OCI beyond 7K. Even 7 is rare. I most-all times run 6K OCIs. ...
To complete the calculation you started as to how much your change interval would theoretically be shortened by not changing the filter:
(7/192)×6000= about 219 miles less to reach the same maximum acceptable level of oil contamination (assuming for simplicity no consumption, or make-up oil).
That number would be considerably higher for old cars that had a full-quart filter and 5-quart sump capacity with filter.
Taking Toyota's numbers from the owner's manual for my car and doing a similar calculation:
(.3qt/4.4qt.)×10,000=682 miles.
... 32 x 6 = 192
192
-07
-----
185 brand new ounces. ...
I never run an OCI beyond 7K. Even 7 is rare. I most-all times run 6K OCIs. ...
To complete the calculation you started as to how much your change interval would theoretically be shortened by not changing the filter:
(7/192)×6000= about 219 miles less to reach the same maximum acceptable level of oil contamination (assuming for simplicity no consumption, or make-up oil).
That number would be considerably higher for old cars that had a full-quart filter and 5-quart sump capacity with filter.
Taking Toyota's numbers from the owner's manual for my car and doing a similar calculation:
(.3qt/4.4qt.)×10,000=682 miles.
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Triple_Se7en
$50 Site Donor 2024
Would youi reduce an all synthetic oil change by 219 miles - being the OCI is only 6-7K anyways?
Is that oil worn out...... c'mon!
My whole premise to my latest reply is letting Irv know that it takes a-lot more to remove the life of your oil and filter, than what he thinks. 90% of us do oil changes that remove life-remaining oil and life-remaining filters..... discard that life...... with thousands of miles left of life.
Your post is wrongly stated Irv, unless you are an oil abuser, which I would bet only 10% or-so of us are. I'm not including Bitog members as 10% abusers either. I'm talking general population of vehicle owners. I would guess less than 3% of BITOG members abuse their oil and filters. Members here belong because they care about their oil and filters..... take better care of that oil.
Is that oil worn out...... c'mon!
My whole premise to my latest reply is letting Irv know that it takes a-lot more to remove the life of your oil and filter, than what he thinks. 90% of us do oil changes that remove life-remaining oil and life-remaining filters..... discard that life...... with thousands of miles left of life.
Your post is wrongly stated Irv, unless you are an oil abuser, which I would bet only 10% or-so of us are. I'm not including Bitog members as 10% abusers either. I'm talking general population of vehicle owners. I would guess less than 3% of BITOG members abuse their oil and filters. Members here belong because they care about their oil and filters..... take better care of that oil.
Originally Posted by CR94
Originally Posted by SirTanon
Yep. Once you break the seal of the gasket against the engine block, it's compromised, and should not go back on.
It's unlikely the filter holds more than a cup or so of old oil, anyways.
What kind of filter gasket was that fragile? As far as any filter I ever reused, that's a myth. They didn't leak the second time, or the third. I didn't grossly overtighten them the way some folks like to do.
It's not about cranking them down, it's about age and set. I'll use my daily driver as an example. I do a 7,500 mile OCI, and I drive long distances, so the engine is plenty hot. After 7,500 miles of driving (usually 3 to 3.5 months for me), the tightness of the filter on the engine and the heat will have set the gasket to some degree. Removal and re-mounting of the filter has the potential of resulting in a leak, which I'd rather avoid.
Considering an OCI for my car is roughly 5.3 quarts, I could live with the small amount which would stay in the filter if I just left it on. From the UOA's I've had done on this car, I wouldn't be concerned that the oil would be bad. It would just be less new.
Originally Posted by SirTanon
Yep. Once you break the seal of the gasket against the engine block, it's compromised, and should not go back on.
It's unlikely the filter holds more than a cup or so of old oil, anyways.
What kind of filter gasket was that fragile? As far as any filter I ever reused, that's a myth. They didn't leak the second time, or the third. I didn't grossly overtighten them the way some folks like to do.
It's not about cranking them down, it's about age and set. I'll use my daily driver as an example. I do a 7,500 mile OCI, and I drive long distances, so the engine is plenty hot. After 7,500 miles of driving (usually 3 to 3.5 months for me), the tightness of the filter on the engine and the heat will have set the gasket to some degree. Removal and re-mounting of the filter has the potential of resulting in a leak, which I'd rather avoid.
Considering an OCI for my car is roughly 5.3 quarts, I could live with the small amount which would stay in the filter if I just left it on. From the UOA's I've had done on this car, I wouldn't be concerned that the oil would be bad. It would just be less new.
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Would youi reduce an all synthetic oil change by 219 miles - being the OCI is only 6-7K anyways?
Is that oil worn out...... c'mon!
My whole premise to my latest reply is letting Irv know that it takes a-lot more to remove the life of your oil and filter, than what he thinks. 90% of us do oil changes that remove life-remaining oil and life-remaining filters..... discard that life...... with thousands of miles left of life.
Your post is wrongly stated Irv, unless you are an oil abuser, which I would bet only 10% or-so of us are. I'm not including Bitog members as 10% abusers either. I'm talking general population of vehicle owners. I would guess less than 3% of BITOG members abuse their oil and filters. Members here belong because they care about their oil and filters..... take better care of that oil.
I disagree, Triple. I don't think my post is wrongly stated at all but rather right on point.
Your "Take better care of that oil" is an oxymoron don't you think? Take care of your oil but yet it is ok to leave a full filter worth of dirty, used oil in your engine?
Like I also mentioned earlier, there is more oil left in the block/galleys after the filter is removed so one can't simply say, because their oil filter holds 500 or 800+ or whatever milliliters of oil, that is all they are leaving behind.
Check out how much more comes out in this vid starting at the 3:00 minute mark. With the filter full and all the extra that flows out after it has been removed, that is a lot of extra dirty oil.
Each to their own but like I stated earlier, to which I will always believe, the purpose of doing an oil change, imo, is to get as much dirty oil out as reasonably possible.
Would youi reduce an all synthetic oil change by 219 miles - being the OCI is only 6-7K anyways?
Is that oil worn out...... c'mon!
My whole premise to my latest reply is letting Irv know that it takes a-lot more to remove the life of your oil and filter, than what he thinks. 90% of us do oil changes that remove life-remaining oil and life-remaining filters..... discard that life...... with thousands of miles left of life.
Your post is wrongly stated Irv, unless you are an oil abuser, which I would bet only 10% or-so of us are. I'm not including Bitog members as 10% abusers either. I'm talking general population of vehicle owners. I would guess less than 3% of BITOG members abuse their oil and filters. Members here belong because they care about their oil and filters..... take better care of that oil.
I disagree, Triple. I don't think my post is wrongly stated at all but rather right on point.
Your "Take better care of that oil" is an oxymoron don't you think? Take care of your oil but yet it is ok to leave a full filter worth of dirty, used oil in your engine?
Like I also mentioned earlier, there is more oil left in the block/galleys after the filter is removed so one can't simply say, because their oil filter holds 500 or 800+ or whatever milliliters of oil, that is all they are leaving behind.
Check out how much more comes out in this vid starting at the 3:00 minute mark. With the filter full and all the extra that flows out after it has been removed, that is a lot of extra dirty oil.
Each to their own but like I stated earlier, to which I will always believe, the purpose of doing an oil change, imo, is to get as much dirty oil out as reasonably possible.
Patman
Staff member
Irv, what you're saying does make sense if the oil change has been extended too far and the oil is way beyond it's usable life, but I would venture to say that a lot of BITOGers (myself included) change their oil often enough that it's really not "dirty" oil in there anyhow, it's oil that could probably go another 50% longer than it just did. So to me, if I am getting out only 80% of the old oil as opposed to 90%, I'm still ok with that if it saves me the time and mess of changing the filter.
Originally Posted by irv
Each to their own but like I stated earlier, to which I will always believe, the purpose of doing an oil change, imo, is to get as much dirty oil out as reasonably possible.
I change the filter every time, but we also do have to think, realistically, that a lot of filters these days are so much smaller, so there's much less volume left behind.
Each to their own but like I stated earlier, to which I will always believe, the purpose of doing an oil change, imo, is to get as much dirty oil out as reasonably possible.
I change the filter every time, but we also do have to think, realistically, that a lot of filters these days are so much smaller, so there's much less volume left behind.
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Originally Posted by Patman
Irv, what you're saying does make sense if the oil change has been extended too far and the oil is way beyond it's usable life, but I would venture to say that a lot of BITOGers (myself included) change their oil often enough that it's really not "dirty" oil in there anyhow, it's oil that could probably go another 50% longer than it just did. So to me, if I am getting out only 80% of the old oil as opposed to 90%, I'm still ok with that if it saves me the time and mess of changing the filter.
Originally Posted by Garak
Originally Posted by irv
Each to their own but like I stated earlier, to which I will always believe, the purpose of doing an oil change, imo, is to get as much dirty oil out as reasonably possible.
I change the filter every time, but we also do have to think, realistically, that a lot of filters these days are so much smaller, so there's much less volume left behind.
I understand both points guys, other than my TG2 on my Ram is huge! Like I said earlier, it just doesn't make sense to me. I know there are quite a few who do do this, and to each their own, but I just don't feel comfortable leaving dirty oil in, which also, imo, just contaminates the clean oil to a degree.
Both my vehicles are fairly straight forward/easy to do so it isn't really any extra work for me. My Yamaha snowmobile, which Yamaha recommends/Okays for 2 oil changes per filter, has the filter right beside the drain plug so it is even easier and a no brainer to me to change it while I am there. The Yamaha Apex's are a different story and a PITA to change so maybe if I owned one of those, my views would be different, who knows?
Irv, what you're saying does make sense if the oil change has been extended too far and the oil is way beyond it's usable life, but I would venture to say that a lot of BITOGers (myself included) change their oil often enough that it's really not "dirty" oil in there anyhow, it's oil that could probably go another 50% longer than it just did. So to me, if I am getting out only 80% of the old oil as opposed to 90%, I'm still ok with that if it saves me the time and mess of changing the filter.
Originally Posted by Garak
Originally Posted by irv
Each to their own but like I stated earlier, to which I will always believe, the purpose of doing an oil change, imo, is to get as much dirty oil out as reasonably possible.
I change the filter every time, but we also do have to think, realistically, that a lot of filters these days are so much smaller, so there's much less volume left behind.
I understand both points guys, other than my TG2 on my Ram is huge! Like I said earlier, it just doesn't make sense to me. I know there are quite a few who do do this, and to each their own, but I just don't feel comfortable leaving dirty oil in, which also, imo, just contaminates the clean oil to a degree.
Both my vehicles are fairly straight forward/easy to do so it isn't really any extra work for me. My Yamaha snowmobile, which Yamaha recommends/Okays for 2 oil changes per filter, has the filter right beside the drain plug so it is even easier and a no brainer to me to change it while I am there. The Yamaha Apex's are a different story and a PITA to change so maybe if I owned one of those, my views would be different, who knows?
If it were a huge filter, I'd want to change it. The G filter is tiny, and I still do.
The idea of two oil changes per filter, though, isn't that new. I've seen it on agricultural equipment decades ago. And yes, if it were a chore, I'd consider two OCs per FC. Then again, I might try to relocate the filter.
>only 2
Light weights. Try 4 or 5.
Light weights. Try 4 or 5.
Originally Posted by ragtoplvr
So, comments appreciated, when doing 2 oil filter changes per filter
Take off filter, let drain out what will drain out, then put back on OR
leave that extra cup or 2 of old oil in the engine with a 4 quart capacity.....
First I'll say 'ime', in multiple filter orientations, (not had vertical thread end down) a cup would be max case, two cups never.
As for filter, as noted best practice is to leave filter in place, sealing gasket deformation being the main reasoning.
As for two oci's, holding capacity the major consideration. Jim Allen (has a sticky at top) has noted here "the average filter in the average car at the average OCI/FCI is less than 50% loaded when removed..." I'm thinking most here are well inside the average. So even in a smaller filter like the very common 7317 application, two oci very doable. And with an extended oci filter like Fram Ultra, two easily done and good ROI.
That said, while it hasn't been common practice for me, I have done 2 oci's with a Bosch Distance Plus, Fram Ultra and a Napa Gold, filters all up to the task. Considering it again on an XG7317 on a Honda application which likely wouldn't amount to 12k mi. total in two years and would be as warranty allowed.
So, comments appreciated, when doing 2 oil filter changes per filter
Take off filter, let drain out what will drain out, then put back on OR
leave that extra cup or 2 of old oil in the engine with a 4 quart capacity.....
First I'll say 'ime', in multiple filter orientations, (not had vertical thread end down) a cup would be max case, two cups never.
As for filter, as noted best practice is to leave filter in place, sealing gasket deformation being the main reasoning.
As for two oci's, holding capacity the major consideration. Jim Allen (has a sticky at top) has noted here "the average filter in the average car at the average OCI/FCI is less than 50% loaded when removed..." I'm thinking most here are well inside the average. So even in a smaller filter like the very common 7317 application, two oci very doable. And with an extended oci filter like Fram Ultra, two easily done and good ROI.
That said, while it hasn't been common practice for me, I have done 2 oci's with a Bosch Distance Plus, Fram Ultra and a Napa Gold, filters all up to the task. Considering it again on an XG7317 on a Honda application which likely wouldn't amount to 12k mi. total in two years and would be as warranty allowed.
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