0W40 in a 0w20 spec vehicle?

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

I'm not saying that everybody needs to be running 0w40 because Mercedes uses it. I'm simply asking you to consider WHY areas outside North American are given options that we are not.....


While I understand asking that question, the corollary never seems to get asked: why aren't 20W oils available in so many other countries. Additionally, there's this false dichotomy which simply will not die--CAFE mandates thinner oils, so it must be bad...

I understand healthy skepticism, I don't understand ignoring published research and mountains of real-world performance and defaulting to "well, that's not how the rest of the world does it".

Look, engines are tolerant of a wide variety of viscosity; if they weren't, they wouldn't run. As long as you keep enough in there and change it every now and then the engine will probably outlast the car; however, this being a forum dedicated to motor oil, most people are probably looking for an "optimal" solution (within reason). It gets frustrating when the discussion goes from "what is optimal" to "the gub'ment is foisting a suboptimal solution on us, and the proof is what they do in Australia". No offense to Shannow and others, but this is the country that gave us reality TV! We're really going to look to them for leadership on this? Why not look at published data and real-world long term results?

 

[OVERKILL]

JOD:

20W oils are an option outside of North America (Japan anyone?) and Doug Hillary ran SAE 20 as well as 20W20 "back in the day". It isn't that they are not used elsewhere. It is that they are an OPTION elsewhere depending on how the vehicle is used, ambient conditions....etc.

I'm not arguing that 20W oils are bad. That's not my position here. I'm saying the lack of choice that we have regarding things like lubricant viscosity and tire pressure are potentially not in the best interest of the consumer and are indeed CAFE driven.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
JOD:

20W oils are an option outside of North America (Japan anyone?) and Doug Hillary ran SAE 20 as well as 20W20 "back in the day". It isn't that they are not used elsewhere. It is that they are an OPTION elsewhere depending on how the vehicle is used, ambient conditions....etc.


No doubt they are, but they're a limited option at best. When I bought my Ford in 2007, 20W oils weren't that easy to find in a major US city! My point being, the recommendation for thicker oils in other countries is based in part by limited availability of 20W oils.

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I'm not arguing that 20W oils are bad. That's not my position here. I'm saying the lack of choice that we have regarding things like lubricant viscosity and tire pressure are potentially not in the best interest of the consumer and are indeed CAFE driven.


I agree with you more on tire pressure than oil! I actually think that the 20W requirements *on the whole* is a good thing, in large part because it's forces wide distribution of 20W oils. How many quick lubes out there would carry 20W oils is 30W oils were "allowed" in all cars? I think one could make a very strong case that it's the other countries which are "compromising" with a sub-optimal recommendation based on other limitations, those limitations being limited distribution, and need/desire for dual-rated petrol/diesel oils, mandated longer drain intervals and consumer perceptions. So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on what's in the best interest of the consumer. After all, for the very rare instances where the mfg recommendations isn't ideal, one can still buy a thicker oil.

 

[Oil Changer]

I was waiting for you to start. Done with me how? Done showing me all your facts and evidence? You're funny.

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Then why are you a member? This is an oil forum. What shall we do here, talk weather?

Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Settle down kids.

It's just motor oil.


Looking to fight Changer? Look elsewhere. Seems you have a 3 way battle going on, lousy odds for you. I'm done with you.

 

[RiceCake]

Looks like this thread is over.

Its turned into another lame-brained war over nothing.

And people make fun of teenagers for pointless drama...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
JOD:

20W oils are an option outside of North America (Japan anyone?) and Doug Hillary ran SAE 20 as well as 20W20 "back in the day". It isn't that they are not used elsewhere. It is that they are an OPTION elsewhere depending on how the vehicle is used, ambient conditions....etc.


No doubt they are, but they're a limited option at best. When I bought my Ford in 2007, 20W oils weren't that easy to find in a major US city! My point being, the recommendation for thicker oils in other countries is based in part by limited availability of 20W oils.

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I'm not arguing that 20W oils are bad. That's not my position here. I'm saying the lack of choice that we have regarding things like lubricant viscosity and tire pressure are potentially not in the best interest of the consumer and are indeed CAFE driven.


I agree with you more on tire pressure than oil! I actually think that the 20W requirements *on the whole* is a good thing, in large part because it's forces wide distribution of 20W oils. How many quick lubes out there would carry 20W oils is 30W oils were "allowed" in all cars? I think one could make a very strong case that it's the other countries which are "compromising" with a sub-optimal recommendation based on other limitations, those limitations being limited distribution, and need/desire for dual-rated petrol/diesel oils, mandated longer drain intervals and consumer perceptions. So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on what's in the best interest of the consumer. After all, for the very rare instances where the mfg recommendations isn't ideal, one can still buy a thicker oil.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Anything useful in this thread seems to be long gone. Time to move on.


Okay, I'll throw a wrench into the works here. In the past, we've discussed the value of running something like M1 0w-40 in my G37 (at least after warranty, blah blah blah). Well, what if I didn't want to run synthetic? And no one had better say 10w-40, or else.

Or if I didn't like M1 0w-40, I'd go to my old standby of Delvac 1300 15w-40 (or even 10w-30) or Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40.

And I won't try 5w-20 in that, either.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
JOD:

20W oils are an option outside of North America (Japan anyone?) and Doug Hillary ran SAE 20 as well as 20W20 "back in the day". It isn't that they are not used elsewhere. It is that they are an OPTION elsewhere depending on how the vehicle is used, ambient conditions....etc.


No doubt they are, but they're a limited option at best. When I bought my Ford in 2007, 20W oils weren't that easy to find in a major US city! My point being, the recommendation for thicker oils in other countries is based in part by limited availability of 20W oils.

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I'm not arguing that 20W oils are bad. That's not my position here. I'm saying the lack of choice that we have regarding things like lubricant viscosity and tire pressure are potentially not in the best interest of the consumer and are indeed CAFE driven.


I agree with you more on tire pressure than oil! I actually think that the 20W requirements *on the whole* is a good thing, in large part because it's forces wide distribution of 20W oils. How many quick lubes out there would carry 20W oils is 30W oils were "allowed" in all cars? I think one could make a very strong case that it's the other countries which are "compromising" with a sub-optimal recommendation based on other limitations, those limitations being limited distribution, and need/desire for dual-rated petrol/diesel oils, mandated longer drain intervals and consumer perceptions. So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on what's in the best interest of the consumer. After all, for the very rare instances where the mfg recommendations isn't ideal, one can still buy a thicker oil.

If a 20wt oil is spec'd for an engine that's all that's required to provide a more than adequate viscosity at normal operating temp's PLUS a large safety margin. There are lots of reasons why some jurisdictions spec' alternate oil grades, such as climate, culture, availability and how vehicles may be typically used (i.e., lot's of high speed driving with high rev's will certainly increase oil consumption and a heavier oil grade will offset this). But the viscosity demands of the engine are usually met by the lightest oil recommended.
Most auto companies that spec' 20wt oil for the NA market do allow you to go up a grade for extreme use; Toyota certainly does. If they don't I interpret that as confidence that a heavier oil grade is simply unnecessary even under extreme useage.

 

[MarkStock]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
JOD:

20W oils are an option outside of North America (Japan anyone?) and Doug Hillary ran SAE 20 as well as 20W20 "back in the day". It isn't that they are not used elsewhere. It is that they are an OPTION elsewhere depending on how the vehicle is used, ambient conditions....etc.


No doubt they are, but they're a limited option at best. When I bought my Ford in 2007, 20W oils weren't that easy to find in a major US city! My point being, the recommendation for thicker oils in other countries is based in part by limited availability of 20W oils.

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I'm not arguing that 20W oils are bad. That's not my position here. I'm saying the lack of choice that we have regarding things like lubricant viscosity and tire pressure are potentially not in the best interest of the consumer and are indeed CAFE driven.


I agree with you more on tire pressure than oil! I actually think that the 20W requirements *on the whole* is a good thing, in large part because it's forces wide distribution of 20W oils. How many quick lubes out there would carry 20W oils is 30W oils were "allowed" in all cars? I think one could make a very strong case that it's the other countries which are "compromising" with a sub-optimal recommendation based on other limitations, those limitations being limited distribution, and need/desire for dual-rated petrol/diesel oils, mandated longer drain intervals and consumer perceptions. So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on what's in the best interest of the consumer. After all, for the very rare instances where the mfg recommendations isn't ideal, one can still buy a thicker oil.


Thanks JOD

I posted something similar about this being an interplay of regulation and economics / financial incentive a few pages back

CAFE incentivised Ford and Toyota to test and then specify 20 weight in the US

Ford dealers didn't want it so only by making it robust enough for the majority of vehicles can you placate the dealers from a simplicity perspective. Additionally enough cars have to require it to make the distribution changes possible without impacting customer costs and retailer and manufacturer margins

Isn't it interesting that mc 5w20 was a syn blend? At the time it had to have syn in it to be robust enough for most fords. Technology changes means conventional can now meet the standard. So syn blend and syn have even more safety margin in 20 weight.

There is simply ample evidence that 20 weight is suitable for the job.

In Europe there is no cafe. European manufacturers decided to meet US cafe standards through turbos, diesels and other methods. They did not have the relative economic incentive to get fuel economy savings through 20 weight oil

However for all we know, they may be now using 30 weight oil in applications that without improvements in oil technology would have required heavier oil

And yes all manufacturers in the US do probably spec a single grade rather than multiple grades because of cafe. Why would the EPA not want them and customers to follow through on actually using the oil that saves gas and therefore reduces pollution?

Remember, Ford and others have a choice on how they meet cafe. Initially it was 20 weight. In future it could be ecoboost with 30. Will people complain 30 is too light and too prescriptive?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
I was waiting for you to start. Done with me how? Done showing me all your facts and evidence? You're funny.

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Then why are you a member? This is an oil forum. What shall we do here, talk weather?

Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Settle down kids.

It's just motor oil.


Looking to fight Changer? Look elsewhere. Seems you have a 3 way battle going on, lousy odds for you. I'm done with you.


I'm done, but still laughing.

 

[Coprolite]

Overk1ll, my BMW specs multiple tire pressures. Iirc, they are for regular driving, extended high speed and heavy load.


Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer

2. People in other countries are given a choice. How does this benefit me?



This applies to more than just motor oil.

BMW spec's a range of tire pressures for their cars depending on how they are loaded elsewhere in the world. North Americans just gets one broad brush spec'd pressure that is typically at the, or is the high end of the range.

MB and other manufacturers do the same thing.

So we either must assume that Americans/Canadians are too inept to be given the choice of pressures based on loading, are too lazy to do it, or there is some other driving factor here (CAFE) that is in play. Since tire pressure, like oil viscosity, plays a role in fuel consumption.

I'm not saying that everybody needs to be running 0w40 because Mercedes uses it. I'm simply asking you to consider WHY areas outside North American are given options that we are not.....

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Coprolite
Overk1ll, my BMW specs multiple tire pressures. Iirc, they are for regular driving, extended high speed and heavy load.


Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer

2. People in other countries are given a choice. How does this benefit me?



This applies to more than just motor oil.

BMW spec's a range of tire pressures for their cars depending on how they are loaded elsewhere in the world. North Americans just gets one broad brush spec'd pressure that is typically at the, or is the high end of the range.

MB and other manufacturers do the same thing.

So we either must assume that Americans/Canadians are too inept to be given the choice of pressures based on loading, are too lazy to do it, or there is some other driving factor here (CAFE) that is in play. Since tire pressure, like oil viscosity, plays a role in fuel consumption.

I'm not saying that everybody needs to be running 0w40 because Mercedes uses it. I'm simply asking you to consider WHY areas outside North American are given options that we are not.....


Mine lists one tire pressure for USA/Canada on the placard and then a list of ones depending on how the car is loaded for the rest of the world.

Got a pic of your placard?

 

[barrysuperhawk]

Good Lord, I left this thread alone for a couple of days and it seems like there was alot of purse swinging while I was gone...

Back on topic, I also have a 2000 Durango with a 4.7 and a 1999 Dakota with a 5.2 that I have been using M1 15w50 [hot] and M1 5W40 TDT [cold] in, but could easily switch when I run out, and start running the 0w40.

Thanks for the responses, both reasoned and not...

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: barrysuperhawk
...it seems like there was alot of purse swinging while I was gone...


Best comment in the thread.

 

[Coprolite]

Overkill, I just checked. It has recommended pressure and high speed pressure >100mph. Perhaps my 2012 shows a small shift in their signage?

I'll upload sooner or later to tire section..


Love the purse swinging comment.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Coprolite
Overkill, I just checked. It has recommended pressure and high speed pressure >100mph. Perhaps my 2012 shows a small shift in their signage?

I'll upload sooner or later to tire section..


Love the purse swinging comment.



Sounds like it, thanks for the update

 

[barrysuperhawk]

6 year update. As it turns out, the terms of my "unlimited mileage" warranty specify that I have to have EVERY single service specified in the owners manual done by an approved, ASE certified mechanic, AFTER pre-authorization. No, I am not kidding, they told me that if the book says change the wipers, I have to pre-authorize it (ask permission) and then have an ASE certified mechanic do it. If you don't believe, here is the link: http://www.mywarrantyforever.com/ SO, I have been using that oil up in other vehicles because I am not allowed to change the oil in my truck myself.

I can, however report that I can, in fact, tell the difference between 5w20 and 0w20 by the way that the trruck starts, runs and drives. Also, Since aI run a 5k interval, blackstone reports that the 5w20 is all but used up after 5k, yet the 0w20 is between 40-60% life left/used depending on how I have been driving. In town results in more used up oil, highway seems kinder to the oil, unless I am towing.

I now have 180,000 miles on my Dakota, and the Oil analysis from 40,000 miles compares very favorably with the one from 175,000, so the 20w oils seem to be doing their job...

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: barrysuperhawk
6 year update. As it turns out, the terms of my "unlimited mileage" warranty specify that I have to have EVERY single service specified in the owners manual done by an approved, ASE certified mechanic, AFTER pre-authorization. No, I am not kidding, they told me that if the book says change the wipers, I have to pre-authorize it (ask permission) and then have an ASE certified mechanic do it. If you don't believe, here is the link: http://www.mywarrantyforever.com/ SO, I have been using that oil up in other vehicles because I am not allowed to change the oil in my truck myself.

I can, however report that I can, in fact, tell the difference between 5w20 and 0w20 by the way that the trruck starts, runs and drives. Also, Since aI run a 5k interval, blackstone reports that the 5w20 is all but used up after 5k, yet the 0w20 is between 40-60% life left/used depending on how I have been driving. In town results in more used up oil, highway seems kinder to the oil, unless I am towing.

I now have 180,000 miles on my Dakota, and the Oil analysis from 40,000 miles compares very favorably with the one from 175,000, so the 20w oils seem to be doing their job...




Using the link you supplied. Just from their FAQ page...