Why do you believe in UFOs?

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule

Recommendation:

Instead of writing a 1,000 word set of scattered thoughts, I highly recommend you get a grasp of the subject of energy and energy scaling, and start with:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html

In the "Index to Hyperphysics", go to "energy."


I appreciate the resource, Mola- impressed at how comprehensive it is. I also want to nod to your prior mentions to the whole MAM concept.

Is there any particular aspect or principle that I should note?

Entropy?

 

[jrustles]

you might like this
http://arxiv.org/abs/1009.0970
about non-equillibrium thermodynamics

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: martinq
Originally Posted By: jrustles
HAARP is one of the most popular energy weapons that the general public knows about.

Another good one.

Back on topic, what would cause someone, who listens to Coast-to-Coast, to believe what they hear without any knowledge or experience with the subject? Did they develop a habit of attaching to fantasy at an early age? Could trauma be involved?


You should ask them.

 

[Drew99GT]

You are clueless jrustles. Utterly clueless. Dutchsinses "HAARP rings show up on the publicly available output of Nexrad radar and the radar systems other governments use to track weather. It has NOTHING to do with infrared satellite imagery. When you look at Nexrad radar on any publicly available website and see rings, you're seeing rendering errors in the software the company uses to display the radar, or you're seeing the radar operator switching in and out of clear air mode. You can also see rings occasionally at dusk during the summer as the atmosphere cools. Guess what is at the center of each ring. A radar site!

If governments around the world are using HAARP and weather weapons, and you in the know conspiracy guys have cracked the code and everyone can see their nefarious actions via publicly available sources.............oh never mind.

The radar ring hoax was first put out by Richard Hoagland over 10 years ago and he is now regarded as one of the biggest bull [censored] artists in conspiracy circles. Even the cranks think he's a kook. It's all out their perfectly documented for you to find, but if you want to believe in weather weapons, be my guest.

Nexrad Hoax

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
you might like this
http://arxiv.org/abs/1009.0970
about non-equillibrium thermodynamics


Thanks, but Ilya Prigogine's, Modern Thermodynamics: From Heat Engines to Dissipative Structures, is much more comprehensive.

I have it my library if you wish to borrow it.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
This one's is a classic!

It sure is...

And the threat to the sheep isn't the dog...it's the WOLVES!

And the sheep don't understand who the wolves are and who the sheepdogs are.

From a sheepdog - you need to learn what the REAL threat is...and it ain't the dog...

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: jrustles

Oh those guys litter the major forums and youtube and there are plenty of pages out there to pacify and distract you 'shhhhh, it's okay, it's all right here in this "scientific" article. Read our studies, they can never be falsified or presented misleadingly or out of context'

No, no. This is the real problem. The conspiracy conjectures are couched as to not be falsifiable; that is, those who present them can never conceive of a situation where they'd be shown to be false. That's why they're not theories. When evidence to the contrary is taken as evidence of a conspiracy, we have a mindset, and not knowledge.

Every time I ask for what would make one of these conjectures falsifiable, all I hear is crickets. So no, there are no conspiracy theories. If it cannot be phrased so as to be tested, it isn't a theory.

 

[d00df00d]

I heartily endorse the above two posts.

 

[Blaze]

I remember reading if the universe was infinite then there would be an infinite number of "me's" out there.

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: Astro14

It sure is...

And the threat to the sheep isn't the dog...it's the WOLVES!

And the sheep don't understand who the wolves are and who the sheepdogs are.

From a sheepdog - you need to learn what the REAL threat is...and it ain't the dog...

"Duuuuuuuuuuuude"

lolwut Wouldn't the real threat to farmed sheep be butchers and meat consuming humans by proxy of the farmer and his cooperation with the dog?

I ain't gonna lie, I missed that analogy

Originally Posted By: Drew99GT

The radar ring hoax was first put out by Richard Hoagland over 10 years ago and he is now regarded as one of the biggest bull [censored] artists in conspiracy circles. Even the cranks think he's a kook. It's all out their perfectly documented for you to find, but if you want to believe in weather weapons, be my guest.

Nexrad Hoax


I actually agree with the 'bird' rings effect. Had no idea it was being used as a "hoax" though. Never paid attention, never heard of those guys (apart form Hoagland, whom I've heard about). I do want to retract any mention of non-ground based energy weapons, and evidence of their usage showing up on infrared satellite imagery, let alone a radar mosaic. You also make a good point about unedited artifacts making it out to radar/satellite imagery.UH: All of that can take us too far off track. We still haven't scratched the surface about the real known science behind weather modification, and I don't want to get off track.

Here is a HAIYAN IR loop (NHC enhanced)
http://tropic.ssec.wisc.edu/storm_archive/2013/storms/haiyan/HaiyanNHC.html
Pay attention to the legs. Sudden upbursts of "precipitable water" feed the rotation

http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/goes/blog/archives/14311 - allows you to really see the clusterf***. First image is INFRARED, you can see how an "energy system" as dense as the main eye is fed from the periphery. Most unusual. The second image is a visible shot, please read the blog, it mentioned anomalous "arrangements" detected. Those are not my conclusions. What kind of energy could be used to entrain movement? Maybe theyre rendering errors in a visible satellite shot?


Originally Posted By: Garak

No, no. This is the real pro
blem. The conspiracy conjectures are couched as to not be falsifiable; that is, those who present them can never conceive of a situation where they'd be shown to be false. That's why they're not theories. When evidence to the contrary is taken as evidence of a conspiracy, we have a mindset, and not knowledge.

Every time I ask for what would make one of these conjectures falsifiable, all I hear is crickets. So no, there are no conspiracy theories. If it cannot be phrased so as to be tested, it isn't a theory.


I LOL'ed.

While I cannot indulge one's own curiosity for them, I can put some information before said persons- FOR THEIR OWN CONSIDERATION!

Familiarize yourself with HAMP (HURRICANE AEROSOL MICRO PHYSICS)

Quote:

The effects of aerosols should be taken into account in the prediction of TC intensity”, --LOL YA THINK-- and, “The HAMP hypothesis that the introduction of small aerosol particles into the clouds act as CCN [cloud condensation nuclei] and can weaken the storm intensity is supported.”


I love the frontline scientists, so benevolent.

Forget the declared intentions, let's just focus on the science. Afterwards knowing the extent of the capabilities, we can decide for ourselves WHO has the interest in it, (heck, who FUNDS IT) after accepting that the technology exists and is viable.

Forget that placing aerosols in the atmosphere has huge effects on energy concentration effecting changes in atmospheric movement from induced pressure differentials and condensation of water vapour.

http://weathermodification.org/Park City Presentations/DC Program Review.pdf
^ read that for an introduction of the science of aerosols
http://weathermodification.org/ - thought it was unfathomable. Now there's a club.

You will also find answers about how "such a small amount of aerosol can effect such great energy movements, the type and properties of the aerosols used etc.
Quote:

Seeding 1 kg of hygroscopic particles having diameter of 0.1 mm and density of 2000 kg m-3 can fill homogeneously 1 km3 with a concentration of nearly 1000 particles cm-3. If the seeding is applied around the storm into the converging marine boundary layer that feed the storm clouds, the seeding rate should be matched to the influx rate. With average inward radial winds of 5 ms-1 at the 0.6 km deep boundary layer along the nearly 2000 km circumference of the radial distance of 300 km the influx of 6 km3s-1. This corresponds to a seeding rate of 6 kg s-1, or 21.6 ton per hour. This is practical with large cargo airplanes having payloads exceeding 10 tons


Of course, there is a mitigating effect of dispersing DRY aerosol around the periphery of a rotation. But that is not the application, we are seeing aerosols dispersed over the oceans that are used and entrained AFTER saturation. The difference being the energy contianed within the aerosol.

The following link, which I have no seen before today, supports a few of the MOs mentioned before- notably the desire to intentionally melt the arctic.
http://www.examiner.com/article/1961-jfk...eneral-assembly

Wait, there are no citation. Ignore it. (I'm actually going to chase citations down)

Then you got Mr 50-yrs commemoration himself blabbering on to the public about the political will to control the weather. Of course Kennedy meant "control" the big bad natural extreme weather- not actually render control of it, right ???? Cuz who cares about siezing control of natrural atmospheric processes? http://csat.au.af.mil/2025/volume3/vol3ch15.pdf - so old. Force "MULTIPLIER"? No no, they surely MISSPELLED "mitigation".

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: jrustles

http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/goes/blog/archives/14311 - allows you to really see the clusterf***. First image is INFRARED, you can see how an "energy system" as dense as the main eye is fed from the periphery. Most unusual. The second image is a visible shot, please read the blog, it mentioned anomalous "arrangements" detected. Those are not my conclusions. What kind of energy could be used to entrain movement? Maybe theyre rendering errors in a visible satellite shot?




Have you ever taken an Earth Science class or a meteorology class? Have you ever even studied the science of how the atmosphere works, what high and low pressure are, why storms spin one direction in the northern hemisphere and the opposite direction in the southern hemisphere?

You say the eye of the storm is fed from the periphery. Of course, that is how ALL low pressure storms work. Warm moist air at the surface is sucked in at the outer edges towards the center of low pressure, the air rises (that is what low pressure is, an area of rising air), the water vapor present condenses, latent heat is released from the phase change of the water going from a gas to a liquid, which further intensifies the storm and adds more energy to the rising air. At the top of the atmosphere, the condensed air recools, evaporates, and is expelled back outward to the periphery of the storm. A hurricane is a steady state heat engine when it's mature, as are all synoptic scale low pressure systems and even mesoscale low pressure systems (think surface based thunderstorms).

That is not "most unusual", it's how the atmosphere works.

I don't see anything int hat blog conspiratorial in nature. It's the atmospheric department of the University of Wisconsin marveling in how powerful the storm was. They talked about how the storm cycles and had eyewall replacement cycles which is a naturally occurring process in tropical cyclones.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
I LOL'ed.

While I cannot indulge one's own curiosity for them, I can put some information before said persons- FOR THEIR OWN CONSIDERATION!

I've read much of the fringe literature a long time ago for laughs. There's still no testable hypothesis. As for your Examiner link, just look at that page. The "source" is a web page called chemtrailsplanet.net. Good grief. How about the bottom which purports to show a picture of a rodent on Mars, taken by the Mars Rover?

The weather modification stuff is absolute nonsense. The Soviet Union couldn't lift itself out of starvation, and they were open minded enough to try anything and everything under the sun. Weather modification would be an economic boon, yet it's being "hidden" by a select few. Of course, some of the smartest minds in the world are flummoxed while "secret knowledge" is guarded by a select few with zero chance of a leak, yet it's obvious to those on the net with zero training in physics or meteorology?

Not even plausible, much less falsifiable.

 

[Drew99GT]

jrustles, read the patent for HAARP. Dr. Bernard Eastlund, the father of the HAARP patent, says IN HIS OWN WORDS it is not used to control weather. He speculates it possible could have unintended consequences to weather, but that HAARP heats the ionosphere, starting at 280,000 feet above Earth's surface. The troposphere contains 80% of weather at ends at 30,000 feet, where the jet streams reside and vertical mixing of the atmosphere occurs due to differential heating of the Earth from the sun.

HAARP was hypothesized, built, and used to research bending of the ionosphere mainly for boucning long distance communication/radio waves over the horizon of Earth before the advent of satellite communications or in the event satellite communication is lost.

You do realize HAARP was OFF during Typhoon Haiyan, correct?

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: Garak


The weather modification stuff is absolute nonsense.


It's not non sense in and of itself. Cloud seeding is very real and governments and people use it all the time. They regularly cloud seed over the Colorado mountains to increase the snow pack in the winter, sometimes with decent results, other times with no effect at all.

That is a far cry from the lunatic theories of HAARP, Nexrad, and using radio waves to create and control cyclones or severe storms!

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
It's not non sense in and of itself. Cloud seeding is very real and governments and people use it all the time. They regularly cloud seed over the Colorado mountains to increase the snow pack in the winter, sometimes with decent results, other times with no effect at all.

That is a far cry from the lunatic theories of HAARP, Nexrad, and using radio waves to create and control cyclones or severe storms!

Exactly. The cloud seeding literature (and practice) has been around for decades. The other stuff is nutty.

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
jrustles, read the patent for HAARP. Dr. Bernard Eastlund, the father of the HAARP patent, says IN HIS OWN WORDS it is not used to control weather. He speculates it possible could have unintended consequences to weather, but that HAARP heats the ionosphere, starting at 280,000 feet above Earth's surface.
The troposphere contains 80% of weather at ends at 30,000 feet, where the jet streams reside and vertical mixing of the atmosphere occurs due to differential heating of the Earth from the sun.


Thank you for brief rundown on "atmospheric layers 101", but are you suggesting that artificially plasmifying locations of the ionosphere can have no effect on other natural systems? Are you suggesting that poor Eastlund's (who is probably spinning like a bloody lathe next to Teller and Einstein) benevolent intentions are being honoured beyond any reasonable doubt, despite he himself "speculating" (ie ADMITTING from knowledge) that the technology does in fact have effects on other natural systems? Are you suggesting that tehre is nothing below the ionosphere that can be energized by the directed energy?

Ah, that's it. It's just the predictable, diurnal cycle of sun heating that's causing all the fuss. It's not like the earth's albedo can be easily modified, or clouds can be seeded to create pressure differentials, it's just the sun and only the sun acting on natural conditions.

Quote:

HAARP was hypothesized, built, and used to research bending of the ionosphere mainly for boucning long distance communication/radio waves over the horizon of Earth before the advent of satellite communications or in the event satellite communication is lost.


Yeah, welcome to 1998. You're preaching to the choir,bro. I'm well aware of the HAARP mission statement, as well as poor Eastlund's intended uses. I'm not that naive, however.

Quote:

You do realize HAARP was OFF during Typhoon Haiyan, correct?



Are you suggesting that the HAARP, which is the proper name for ONE "ionospheric heater" or more aptly, directed energy weapon, is the only scalable, high-powered DEW on earth. I mean, I should think so, considering no one cares for the technology..................

This 'passive tool of study' is anything but-- it most definitely radiates directed energy and has most definitely been scaled over the years. I'm sorry, but those are facts. Another fact: it's far from the only DEW installation in existence right now.

We're dealing with two levels of denial here, Mr Garak denies any interest or capability altogether. Conclusion? Nothing to see here, doesn't exist, move it along.

Mr Drew99GT finally admits that the CCN aerosol technology is real, developed and readily available, but that it's solely limited to the private sector for benevolent custom weather events and 'snow pack' concerns. Still denies any directed energy component.

 

[Astro14]

The only denial here is the inability to think critically and apply a true scientific understanding to reject unsupportable, untestable, crackpot theories.

The physics just doesn't add up in any of what you've proposed, gravitic craft, HAARP weather control, and all the rest. You use big words, but not in a logically consistent way....frankly, as one salty old fighter pilot once said, "it takes a clue to know that you're clue-less...".

We've been down this road before on BITOG:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post2823752

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2822974&page=1

 

[d00df00d]

The biggest single problem with these discussions is that they tend to be all about teams -- who's with me and how can I defend them, who's against me and how can I destroy them, etc. As soon as someone decides you fit some kind of label in their mind (conspiracy theorist/debunker/shill/sheeple/whatever), they process everything you say through that lens, and it becomes all but impossible to do anything but make things worse. The object is no longer to find truth; it's to find people who agree with you and defeat those who don't.

This is just how people act when they feel threatened. It takes a TREMENDOUS amount of willpower and maturity to act differently. Completely understandable if you know anything about human social psychology.

That's why I've largely hung back here, except to point out why I think the discussion isn't going to be fruitful. Once people get defensive, it's over -- unless all sides have the wherewithal to calm down. Again, that's understandably difficult when your threat sense has been activated.

I really think the best thing that could happen for this thread is for all of us to leave it be.

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
The biggest single problem with these discussions is that they tend to be all about teams -- who's with me and how can I defend them, who's against me and how can I destroy them, etc. As soon as someone decides you fit some kind of label in their mind (conspiracy theorist/debunker/shill/sheeple/whatever), they process everything you say through that lens, and it becomes all but impossible to do anything but make things worse. The object is no longer to find truth; it's to find people who agree with you and defeat those who don't.

This is just how people act when they feel threatened. It takes a TREMENDOUS amount of willpower and maturity to act differently. Completely understandable if you know anything about human social psychology.

That's why I've largely hung back here, except to point out why I think the discussion isn't going to be fruitful. Once people get defensive, it's over -- unless all sides have the wherewithal to calm down. Again, that's understandably difficult when your threat sense has been activated.

I really think the best thing that could happen for this thread is for all of us to leave it be.


I'd say that there have been certain elements in this thread that have created that very scenario and dynamic. Not by accident most likely.

It reminds me of classic psycho warfare tactics....which leads us to your last paragraph. The intended consequence? I think so.

I say lets foil that attempt and press onwards.

 

[d00df00d]

Don't co-opt my post. The irony might kill me.