VW GTI Safe to buy yet?

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Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: Stanley Rockafeller

The 5 cyl version is far superior in design and build. It's the only VW I'd ever purchase (with a 5 speed manual trans. of course). They are built in Germany and have quality and fit and finish levels comparable to many BMW/Audi etc/ cars.


The 5cyl itself is built in Mexico.



Care to support that claim?

Regardless, the engine has very few (if any) complaints itself.
 
Originally Posted By: Stanley Rockafeller
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: Stanley Rockafeller

The 5 cyl version is far superior in design and build. It's the only VW I'd ever purchase (with a 5 speed manual trans. of course). They are built in Germany and have quality and fit and finish levels comparable to many BMW/Audi etc/ cars.


The 5cyl itself is built in Mexico.



Care to support that claim?

Not sure how accurate this wiki page is, but according to it, the only factory that makes inline five cylinder engines for VW is in Puebla, Mexico.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volkswagen_Group_factories

Rumors have it, the upcoming Golf bound for the US market may be entirely made in Mexico, not just the engine.
 
Originally Posted By: Stanley Rockafeller
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: Stanley Rockafeller

The 5 cyl version is far superior in design and build. It's the only VW I'd ever purchase (with a 5 speed manual trans. of course). They are built in Germany and have quality and fit and finish levels comparable to many BMW/Audi etc/ cars.


The 5cyl itself is built in Mexico.




Care to support that claim?

Regardless, the engine has very few (if any) complaints itself.


There's the above wiki:

The 5cylinder is only used in Volkswagens in North and South America (possibly the Middle East as well) Check Volkswagen.uk or Volkswagen.de. It's not on there.
They have like 4 or 5 engines listed per model but the 2.5 is not among them.

I just cannot imagine them casting that engine in Europe if they are not going to sell them there.

Passat in Chattanooga, Beetle and Jetta in Puebla....it's just a matter of time before Golf production moves to the western hemisphere. Probably Puebla. Maybe Brazil or Tennessee. It's just the way VW works.

MotorTrend described the 2.5l 5cyl as the engine, "...for people who don't care about Volkswagens or cars in general."

The TDi and 2.0T are more engaging and generally more economical engines at a slightly higher price. The VR6 makes 110 additional horsepower without a significant loss of fuel economy.
 
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
I just cannot imagine them casting that engine in Europe if they are not going to sell them there.

But the way they're doing it now: building an engine in Mexico, shipping it to Germany, putting it in the Golf in Germany, and then shipping it to the US, seems a bit convoluted.

I guess it's still cheaper this way?
 
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: Stanley Rockafeller
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: Stanley Rockafeller

The 5 cyl version is far superior in design and build. It's the only VW I'd ever purchase (with a 5 speed manual trans. of course). They are built in Germany and have quality and fit and finish levels comparable to many BMW/Audi etc/ cars.


The 5cyl itself is built in Mexico.




Care to support that claim?

Regardless, the engine has very few (if any) complaints itself.


There's the above wiki:

The 5cylinder is only used in Volkswagens in North and South America (possibly the Middle East as well) Check Volkswagen.uk or Volkswagen.de. It's not on there.
They have like 4 or 5 engines listed per model but the 2.5 is not among them.

I just cannot imagine them casting that engine in Europe if they are not going to sell them there.

Passat in Chattanooga, Beetle and Jetta in Puebla....it's just a matter of time before Golf production moves to the western hemisphere. Probably Puebla. Maybe Brazil or Tennessee. It's just the way VW works.

MotorTrend described the 2.5l 5cyl as the engine, "...for people who don't care about Volkswagens or cars in general."

The TDi and 2.0T are more engaging and generally more economical engines at a slightly higher price. The VR6 makes 110 additional horsepower without a significant loss of fuel economy.


Shame the full productions will be sent to Mexico. Guess it means I should purchase a gently used Rabbit sooner than later!

As for MotorTrends review, who really cares? all I know is it's a potent little powertrain that is more efficient with 2.5 litres and 5 cylinders, than my relic BMW does with an additional cylinder.
 
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
MotorTrend described the 2.5l 5cyl as the engine, "...for people who don't care about Volkswagens or cars in general."

The TDi and 2.0T are more engaging and generally more economical engines at a slightly higher price. The VR6 makes 110 additional horsepower without a significant loss of fuel economy.


Motor Trend sucks.

It's true that the 2.5 isn't exactly an exciting engine, and doesn't make you want to rev it like some of VW's sportier powerplants.... but it's a perfectly fine pedestrian engine for the more mundane cars in their lineup.
 
Potent?

Not a word I would have chosen.

Virtually everybody's 2.4 or 2.5 4 cylinder is more powerful than the VW 5'er. Usually get better fuel economy too. The current Toyota 2.5 4 cylinder feels smoother and better balanced. I'm sure the new ecotec 2.5 will as well. The smaller displacement older tech VR5 put out nearly as much horsepower as the "half a Gallardo" L5.

Volkswagen acquired a "potent" 2.4 when they bought Suzuki. But they let the brand languish and die in the US instead. (they wouldn't have had to do much to the Kizashi and they could have badged it as a Jetta...they have a lot of style similarities)

Before anybody gets all huffy about my suggestion that VW could use an "inferior Japanese" chassis design or engine, go down to the VW dealer and take a look at the Routan. They clearly have no problem doing that.

No offense intended but I just feel like the 2.5 L5 falls short on everything that a VW engine usually is. It's not compact, it's not efficient, it doesn't have a good power:weight ratio.
 
My neighbor has a 2010 GTI, Turbo stick. he hasnt had any issues other than the 40K mile service, 600$ but that is no worse than any of the other OEM's. He like his.

Go to a GTI board and ask the folsk there.
 
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
No offense intended but I just feel like the 2.5 L5 falls short on everything that a VW engine usually is. It's not compact, it's not efficient, it doesn't have a good power:weight ratio.


True, while it may not be a sporty powerplant, it certainly makes up for that in it's overall refinement of the car which is an integral part of choosing this engine over say, a 1.8 or 2.0 Turbo. It makes living with it more of an enjoyable experience, rather than having the wring every last RPM outta the motor to get it going or to keep up with traffic.

My best comparison of it would be to the first BMW I ever owned, an 86 325es. That car had GOBS of tq, so much so that when starting from a stop, you didnt' even have to blip the gas to get it going (5 speed stick), just lift off the clutch and away you go. It dramatically reduces the amount of NVH in the car too, rendering its performance more of a larger car. This is great for a place like Europe where space is at a premium.
 
Originally Posted By: Stanley Rockafeller
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
No offense intended but I just feel like the 2.5 L5 falls short on everything that a VW engine usually is. It's not compact, it's not efficient, it doesn't have a good power:weight ratio.


True, while it may not be a sporty powerplant, it certainly makes up for that in it's overall refinement of the car which is an integral part of choosing this engine over say, a 1.8 or 2.0 Turbo. It makes living with it more of an enjoyable experience, rather than having the wring every last RPM outta the motor to get it going or to keep up with traffic.

My best comparison of it would be to the first BMW I ever owned, an 86 325es. That car had GOBS of tq, so much so that when starting from a stop, you didnt' even have to blip the gas to get it going (5 speed stick), just lift off the clutch and away you go. It dramatically reduces the amount of NVH in the car too, rendering its performance more of a larger car. This is great for a place like Europe where space is at a premium.


But it's not availiable in Europe.

To me, the 2.5 5cylinder is inefficient and coarse.

The Toyota 2AR makes more horsepower and only a few ft-lbs less torque at about the same rpm. The Nissan QR25 makes more torque. The Mazda MZR 2.5 makes about the same hp and a few lbs less torque (but Mazdas typically come up a little short in hp/torque...they make up for it in the chassis) The Ford Duratec25 version Mazda gets a lot closer in torque. The GM GenIII Ecotec buries it in torque and horsepower production. The Suzuki 2.4 and Honda K24W1 beat it in both torque and horsepower.....all of these do it with one less cylinder.

It's completely average as a four cylinder and that's the problem. It's not a four cylinder
 
I'll get the thread back on track....

The GTI is a fantastic car, and as far as I can tell it's no less reliable than any of its direct competitors. I keep an eye on the GTI specific forums and it doesn't appear to have any nasty weaknesses which require extra attention to own, things like windows regulators, coilpacks, excess carbon buildup, etc. At least I haven't observed any trends.

The one and only thing I seriously dislike is the inability to completely turn off the electronic stability control. It's not so intrusive that it prevents you from moving at the most brisk pace the car is capable of, but sometimes I want to set my hair on fire and drive like a hooligan. Even after hitting the "ESP OFF" button if the car so much as thinks you *might* have to countersteer to bring the car in line it goes into safety mode, which is a shame because for a front wheel drive car it has beautifully neutral handling and is very easy to control.

It should be noted that there's a way around this with the newer GTIs, starting with either 2012 or 2013 with a tweak via VAGCOM. But for us in the 2008ish to 2011ish year model cars we're out of luck.
 
This is getting off track. I am looking for TSI basic manual trany GTI.

New engine supposed to have timing chain, updated PVC and div-valve, fuel pump and supposed to be more reliable.
 
Free maintenance for 3 years or 36k miles so that takes care of that part for 3 years. Oil choices are Castrol 5W40 or M1 0W40 among others but that's the easiest in my area to find. It takes less than 5 quarts so one jug will do so around $30 to $40 for oil with 10K mile OCI (which most people on the forums thinks is too high and do only 5K miles). The filter is somewhat expensive if you're used to paying $4, but at $8 to $10 a piece it's not too bad. You want a manual so you won't have to do the 40K miles DSG service which is $400+ at the dealer. Spark plugs are less than $6 a piece and coils are a bit expensive at $20 a piece. Manual fluid is cheap as you can usually use any redline or other mt fluid. Air filter and cabin filters are less than $20 a piece. An oil change on it is so easy as it has a top mounted filter that makes no mess (kinda). Brake pads are plentiful but the OEM ones are $80 for just the front and $65 for the rears. OEM rotors are sort of pricey at $190 for the fronts and $100 for the rears. I think I covered it all but everything is pretty much standard prices with some things being higher than others.
 
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: Stanley Rockafeller
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
No offense intended but I just feel like the 2.5 L5 falls short on everything that a VW engine usually is. It's not compact, it's not efficient, it doesn't have a good power:weight ratio.


True, while it may not be a sporty powerplant, it certainly makes up for that in it's overall refinement of the car which is an integral part of choosing this engine over say, a 1.8 or 2.0 Turbo. It makes living with it more of an enjoyable experience, rather than having the wring every last RPM outta the motor to get it going or to keep up with traffic.

My best comparison of it would be to the first BMW I ever owned, an 86 325es. That car had GOBS of tq, so much so that when starting from a stop, you didnt' even have to blip the gas to get it going (5 speed stick), just lift off the clutch and away you go. It dramatically reduces the amount of NVH in the car too, rendering its performance more of a larger car. This is great for a place like Europe where space is at a premium.


But it's not availiable in Europe.

To me, the 2.5 5cylinder is inefficient and coarse.

The Toyota 2AR makes more horsepower and only a few ft-lbs less torque at about the same rpm. The Nissan QR25 makes more torque. The Mazda MZR 2.5 makes about the same hp and a few lbs less torque (but Mazdas typically come up a little short in hp/torque...they make up for it in the chassis) The Ford Duratec25 version Mazda gets a lot closer in torque. The GM GenIII Ecotec buries it in torque and horsepower production. The Suzuki 2.4 and Honda K24W1 beat it in both torque and horsepower.....all of these do it with one less cylinder.

It's completely average as a four cylinder and that's the problem. It's not a four cylinder


Sure the 2.5 TO YOU might feel inneffiecent and coarse, but to everyone else, it's refined and brings the segment standards up to a new level.

It's not about how much power the car makes as mentioned in your previosu post, its all about WHEN it gives that power. On all the above vehicles, you need to really wring the engine to get those performance numbers, not so with the 2.5 5cyl.

Also, if you are interested in small performance upgrades, you can get far more (power, performance etc.) for far less money. In terms of perofmance, you can get very close to the GTI's stock numbers with bolt on's to the 2.5 5cyl, and it will be done so without compromising comfort NVH, or long-term reliability (as opposed to the turbo engine in the GTI.)
 
Originally Posted By: Stanley Rockafeller
Originally Posted By: SLCraig
Consider yourself lucky I guess.
My friend was doing 10K OCI's on his base Golf and wondered why his oil pressure light flickered after a while. Only to find out the dipstick was bone dry when pulled. Probably had a quart in it. He has had other issues with the car as well.

They are not all made equal.


Seeing your from Canada, wat kind of base Golf was it? I'm almost certain it is the "City" version with the primitive 2.0 engine with 4 clyinders. These are cheap, Mexican built cars of reasonably poor quality.

The 5 cyl version is far superior in design and build. It's the only VW I'd ever purchase (with a 5 speed manual trans. of course). They are built in Germany and have quality and fit and finish levels comparable to many BMW/Audi etc/ cars.

I once upon a time swore off VW's too, but after reading several pages of positive reviews, it's kinda hard to ignore the rabbit/Golf now

Here's some info to support the VW choice;
http://www.edmunds.com/volkswagen/rabbit/2008/consumer-reviews.html?sub=hatchback

http://www.carsurvey.org/reviews/volkswagen/rabbit/2008/single-page/


Yup its a Citi Golf. The car is a pile. Would never own one.
 
I jumped back onto the VW forums to look around to see what problems have developed, here they are....

Intake manifold: it's a composite piece and there's a valve that fails on the 2010 and 2011 models that causes the car to run poorly. This seems to be, perhaps, the most common issue you can encounter. However, VW updated the part for 2012 and you shouldn't see any more issues. The part is also relatively cheap, like about $150 and apparently isn't too difficult to replace.

Throwout bearing: there's a TSB for this one. On some cars it howls and makes noise, particularly when engaging the clutch from a stop. My car does this infrequently, maybe once every few weeks, except when the temps are below freezing and it does it all the time. The way to test this in a used car is to engage the parking brake and attempt to get the car rolling, if it's bad enough to take to the dealership for repair it'll make the noise. The dealership shouldn't hassle you about warranty repair on a normal wear and tear item since there's a TSB out on this; could take advantage of the free labor to get a new clutch installed at the same time. There are no known total failures related to this that I could find, just noise.

Fuel injectors: this one is extremely rare, and seems to occur very early in the car's life, but every now and then they go. Again, not common, nothing to worry about (IMO).

Water pump: this one is kind of a turd-shoot. It seems to be somewhat common, but VW also updated this part so if you get a newer GTI you shouldn't have issues. If you're buying used, on the 2010 and 2011 models if the water pump was going to go bad it has probably been replaced by now.

Intake valves: carbon build-up. Not as bad as MkV GTIs, but it still happens. Expect to want to dig in and clean this up at about 100k miles.

Timing chain tensioner: this seems to be the biggest boogieman worry about because it can cause the greatest amount of damage. That said, I really don't feel that this affects a high percentage of cars, and seems to be quite rare. It also seems that VW updated this part by adding a ratcheting function that prevents failure from causing a loss of timing extreme enough to bend valves.

Knowing this I'd still buy one. The only adjustment is that I intend to add the following items to my 100k mile service...

Clean intake valves
Replace intake manifold (fairly cheap, have to remove the old one to get to the valves anyway)
Water pump
Timing chain tensioner

Doing all that myself may add a few hundred bucks and an afternoon to the ownership cost of the car. Paying an independent VW shop to do it.... maybe $1000 to $1500 in parts and labor, still not too bad for a car that drives as nicely as the GTI does.

Also, for driving enthusiasts who care, on the 2010 and 2011 models you can now disable ESP via VCDS by turning off the steering angle sensor.

I hope that was thorough enough, but not enough to freak anybody out. Every car has some acute issues, but I feel that these are all manageable and don't really remove the car from the "reliable" category. However, I might change my tune if my timing belt tensioner fails on me....
 
When you consider the level of performance from a GTI, it's pretty reasonable that it's going to have it's share of probelsm (just as any high-performance car is going to).

Another contender I'd seriously consider is the Focus ST (depending on you budget). One of these car be had for about 5-7,000 less than the GTI (when purchased new), with performance numbers that are better than the GTI too.

Just something to consider
 
Originally Posted By: Stanley Rockafeller
When you consider the level of performance from a GTI, it's pretty reasonable that it's going to have it's share of probelsm (just as any high-performance car is going to).

Another contender I'd seriously consider is the Focus ST (depending on you budget). One of these car be had for about 5-7,000 less than the GTI (when purchased new), with performance numbers that are better than the GTI too.

Just something to consider


Most definitely. The Focus ST is a really nice ride. If I were going shopping for a brand new car today, it'd be at the top of my list of cars to look at. In the US they aren't *that* much cheaper than GTIs, but they are a couple thousand under. For $5000 to $7000 less as a base price I'd have a hard time buying a GTI over one.
 
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