Tire effect on "poor" handling car

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JHZR2

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This is likely theory more than anything else, but here it goes.

My 82 MB 300cd needs new tires. This car has 195/70r14 tires, recirculating ball steering, etc. It is perfectly wonderful to execute hundreds of thousands of interstate highway miles with comfort, safety, ecomomy and fine performance... But a "performance" car it is not.

I'm looking at low rolling resistance tires for the replacements. The options are the Kumho Eco Solus and the Michelin Hydroedge LRR. The Kumho has the disadvantage that they are made in china or Korea. They have the advantage of being much cheaper than the US made michelins. But the thing to me is that the Kumho tires performed a good deal worse than the michelins in the tire rack tests.

However, the tire rack tests were performed on a recent BMW 3-series. That's a big difference from my car. My car doesn't have abs, traction control, etc., of course, let alone big differences in suspension and fire size, etc.

Some things are bound to be relevant across the board, I'd think. Wet braking comes to mind... But are the handling aspects relevant? To me, it is like putting a $10k camera intothe hands of a novice photographer, or a $10k guitar in the hands of someone learning. It's just not going to be used to the limits regardless due to natural inability.

Kind of the same as if I put the tires and wheels from my 135i onto my 300cd. But this is more relevantas I'm comparing size to size across two makes. On a vehicle not driven hard, without a most capable suspension design, does it make that much of a difference, or perhaps more correctly stated, will I feel a difference going with the better, more responsive, better stopping and handling tire on a low performance vehicle, just by virtue of the better tire's better design?

I appreciate your thoughts.

Thanks!
 
I would get the Michelins for the wet traction, too. Better braking, more grip in emergency avoidance maneuvers. Better hydroplane resistance. Other than price, I see no reason to buy the Kumhos.
 
"will I feel a difference going with the better, more responsive, better stopping and handling tire on a low performance vehicle, just by virtue of the better tire's better design?"

Yes! absolutely.

But surely you have other options?
I bought some great Yokohama's from Discount Tire.
 
Great news, your narrow footprint and heavy car will be naturally hydroplane resistant. Better tires will help even more.

But simple wet roads will show differences in tires. Hopefully the "grandma" size isn't too differently engineered from the test tires in tread pattern etc.

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I know it's an unfair comparison, but my Michelin MXV4+ Energys were lousy tires all around, except for long treadwear, which just continued the suffering. Not every Michelin made is the cat's meow.
 
To me anyway, the older 300 Mercedes Benz did fairly well regardless of tire in acceleration and braking.
Acceleration? the diesel L5 wasn't ever in a hurry to get to freeway speed anyway but could cruise effortlessly forever.
Braking? Very good. Probably due to the weight of the car and a well designed brake balance.
Cornering? Sure, it gets to it's limits fairly quickly in corners but what car that size and weight on 14"s doesn't?


A lot of the older BMW drivers like Nexen for a low-price replacement. I don't know how well that will translate to a 300CD.
 
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I think you will feel the differences between the two tires when you drive your MB 300CD to its limits, but you will not feel any different if you drive the 300CD at easy pace.

My LS400 spec'ed V rated tire, I had S, T and H rated tires and could not feel any different on highway speed of 70-80MPH or in city streets. The different was when I took the on ramps at higher speed, the H and V rate tires performed better than slower speed rated tires.
 
Putting better tires onto my Buick with tall, fairly skinny 205/70-15's made a world of difference in how the car reacted in the wet, and around every corner. The better tires inspired much more confidence that I'd stop/turn when needed.

I'd get the Michelin's for their better performance. Most times with tires the cheap tires are cheap for a reason, ie, worse overall performance. That being said, there are some inexpensive tires that definitely aren't cheap.
 
I hate buying Chinese tires, but were talking $97 vs $65 each. The main concern is that though I renewed my suspension mostly, I'm not sure what the wear pattern will be yet. Getting aligned at the dealer soon, but if some other 30yo rubber part that currently looks great but goes bad at some point, I'd hate to wear long life tires prematurely because I'm just not sure of the wear patterns yet. $65 is more palatable inthat regard...
 
My car currently has Dunlop sport a2 tires, which I've used on all sorts of cars and at least 100k on 300d cars. They are H rated, but all the reaffirmed these days are s or t. I'm getting t rated...
 
Testing is done on new tires. The true colors will shine when the tires have some age and miles on them. The shift in the belt and bubbles on the sidewall will show the real test between the two. From that, I'd go with Michelin's. You will get every penny worth.
 
So you are talking a mere +$128.00 for all four corners?
Not that significant a difference over the life of the tires.
I always thought the 123 was a good handling machine.
The limits may not be high, but are ample for anything not involving a track day.
I watched more than one BMW fade in my rearview in a fast corner from the driver's seats of my 240Ds, for example.
Of course, when things straightened out, any running BMW would blow right by any 123, diesel or not.
While the ultimate grip may not be all that much by modern standards, the 123 is predictable enough that you can use every bit of it safely.
Mercedes would not have put off-brand tires on its mainstream car, which the 123 was when new.
I wouldn't either.
I hope that I find one as nice as yours, incidentally.
I'd love to own another 123.
The ultimate old-school Mercedes.
Simple, very well made, and totally unpretentious.
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
So you are talking a mere +$128.00 for all four corners?
Not that significant a difference over the life of the tires.
I always thought the 123 was a good handling machine.
The limits may not be high, but are ample for anything not involving a track day.
I watched more than one BMW fade in my rearview in a fast corner from the driver's seats of my 240Ds, for example.
Of course, when things straightened out, any running BMW would blow right by any 123, diesel or not.
While the ultimate grip may not be all that much by modern standards, the 123 is predictable enough that you can use every bit of it safely.
Mercedes would not have put off-brand tires on its mainstream car, which the 123 was when new.
I wouldn't either.
I hope that I find one as nice as yours, incidentally.
I'd love to own another 123.
The ultimate old-school Mercedes.
Simple, very well made, and totally unpretentious.


I'm just curious about which BMW's you saw in the rear view mirror of your 240? Perhaps they weren't trying? A lot of it also has to do with driver skill.
 
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I recall a couple of 3-series cars, probably e30s.
Any e30, including the 318i, has better acceleration than any W123, including the 280E.
A lot of it has to do with whether the driver has ever explored the limits of his car.
Neither my old e36 not my old 123s required any particular skill to drive fast.
These ain't old 911s.
A lot of it also has to do with driver nerve.
 
I had a '80 W123 280 for a couple of years in the UK and Germany and found it to be nearly on par power-wise with the 3 liter BMWs and Opels. Despite terrible aerodynamics it could cruise at 125 mph all day. Handling however was too soft for my liking and the semi-trailing arm rear would step out too easily. I had the Dunlop Sports also, pretty good tires.
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I recall a couple of 3-series cars, probably e30s.
Any e30, including the 318i, has better acceleration than any W123, including the 280E.
A lot of it has to do with whether the driver has ever explored the limits of his car.
Neither my old e36 not my old 123s required any particular skill to drive fast.
These ain't old 911s.
A lot of it also has to do with driver nerve.


I will respectfully disagree. The E30 cars are highly regarded at the Auto X scene as they are like toss able go karts, especially with a few tweaks. The pristine E30 M3's which are probably impossible to find, cost much more than the E36 M3 cars.

An E30 has much higher capabilities than a Benz of the platform. I believe the OP actually has an E30 in addition to a few other cars and can comment from personal experience.

I realize this thread is going a bit of topic so I apologize to the OP.
 
The US spec 280E was a stone.
May have had decent top end, but had limited acceleraton.
The 123 in the US was always a pretty sedate car, although also a very good one.
 
I had a 83 240d and i thought the car handled very well. I had replaced most of the suspension and upgraded to the bilstein shocks. I also bought some newer factory style rims from tirerack. I did a +1 and went to a 205 60 15. I did this because I did not like the factory hub cap rims and hated being limited to 14 in tire choices. When I did this it only cost me about $200 more than just tires alone and they come to you balanced when you buy their wheel/tire package. Any ways I had the car for many years and tried several kinds of tires including the dunlops you have now which were my least favorite tire. The tires I liked best overall for price were Yokohamas. I had Michelin MXV4's and did not think they were worth their extra money at all.
 
Please dont get me wrong, when I say "poor" I mean in terms of capability compared to what an auto rag would say is the latest and greatest.

I love my w123 cars, and have had four different now including the two I currently own.

So this is more theory of the effect that a tire would have on an older suspension design, based upon tests performed on a vehicle which is more or less the standard to beat (i.e. a newish 3-series).
 
Originally Posted By: Spartuss


An E30 has much higher capabilities than a Benz of the platform. I believe the OP actually has an E30 in addition to a few other cars and can comment from personal experience.



Id agree, my E30 318i has better acceleration and cornering capability than my 300CD. The 300CD and my 240D have better ride comfort. Different designs though for different applications. My 300CD is no slouch though... 120hp at full boost with 177 lb-ft, versus about 134hp and 130 lb-ft pulling hard. 318 is like 2600lb, the 300CD is 3000 lb. 318i has MT, 300CD is AT.

The E30 is a great platform and performer. Sure my 135i is faster/better, but there is a tossability that the E30 has that no other car Ive driven exhibits.
 
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