Synthetic is superior...so WHY use conventional???

[FutureDoc]

Cost like most state... and application.

I have a beater. 207K+ now. Why would I spend more for a synthetic? I do not drive it enough to take advantage of an extended drain, the engine is likely not going to last longer. I don't get the lower viscosity benefit because I add 5w20/Xw30 mix in an engine that recommends 5w30 (and TAKES 10w30/10w40) The Subaru EJ25 are notoriously soft on oil (if they are hard on original HG). So why use Syn?

Now, in my MR2, I use Syn without getting the mileage benefit, to few miles. I drive the tires off of it and the 1ZZ is tough on oil.

Blindly using anything because it is "better" without context on the application is not always the "best" way to approach it.

Edit: I use "whatever is on clearance" for the beater. So if I get synblend for $5 a jug, in it goes.

 

[Ed_Flecko]

I guess part of my confusion is that your motor is THE main component of your vehicle and you'd want to do the best you can to protect it? I think for most people, if the motor dies they're going to dump the vehicle.

I can see purchasing a lower quality tire, wiper blades, etc., etc., etc., for your car, but it just seems like spending a few dollars more for an oil that you KNOW is high quality might make sense? Even IF you think you're buying a better oil than you need?

Ed

 

[Smokescreen]

Ahhh the BITOG 1st world dilemma.

If you are following the OEM recommendations, which may state for example to change your oil every 5000 miles or 8000kms, there is nothing to gain (performance, less wear, etc) from using a synthetic over a proper conventional in a normal duty cycle.

When you throw in severe duty cycles, extreme temperatures, extended intervals or other things that fall outside the normal duty cycle, there may be of some benefit and use.

As it has been stated, very rarely do cars succumb to an early death due to an oil related issue these days...very rarely...and a lot of cars are severely abused and neglected. The longevity benefits of a conventional vs synthetic in the real world in a double blind test are inconclusive. Some like the extra protection that the synthetic could provide, but never actually tap into that reserve. Don't get me wrong, I live in Canada where the temps can dip to -40F or C, so the ease of starting is a benefit of using synthetic oil. If I lived in a more temperate climate following a normal duty cycle I would never see the benefit of a synthetic oil.

What is more important than what oil to use (conventional vs synthetic vs hyper synthetic etc), is to be following a regular oil maintenance schedule and the engine will outlast the rest of the car and your interest in it.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko
I guess part of my confusion is that your motor is THE main component of your vehicle and you'd want to do the best you can to protect it?

Vehicles may become inoperable/unusable for a number of reasons. I'm not sure that oil lubrication related failure is such a big reason though. There are other things like transmission, electrics/electronics, or rust that push people into ditching them.

 

[salv]

There are cheaper synthetic oils with additive chemistries that are inferior to some premium conventional oils. The additive package is often times more important than the base oils as far as modern spec oils go.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko
I often scratch my head and ponder this question - why does ANYONE choose to use conventional oil since, I think, everyone would agree that (as a general rule) synthetic is just simply better? Is it just ignorance about the differences about motor oil and what a critical component of your vehicle oil is? I don't think there's ANYTHING a conventional oil is good for that a synthetic isn't better for, is there? Wouldn't the "worst" synthetic oil be better than ANY conventional oil or am I wrong?

Theoretically, it's possible for a good conventional to be better than a bad synthetic. In practice, a synthetic will only be worse if it was formulated WAY wrong for the application -- e.g. wrong viscosity, high-ash additive pack when a low-ash one is called for, etc.

If you compare a synthetic to a conventional when BOTH meet the specs for the application, then you can bet the synthetic will be better. The only question is whether that difference will matter, as people have pointed out. If it doesn't, then by definition the synthetic will be a waste of money. The only catch is that there's really no way to know, so...

My car is the only one I'm aware of that is more or less locked into conventionals. It has a weird engine that doesn't like certain synthetic base stocks, and it's impossible to know for sure which oils contain those base stocks, so the safest thing is just to use a conventional oil. There are synthetics that are known to work, but those aren't recognized by Mazda USA for warranty purposes (even though one of them is a Mazda product...).

If I had a car with ANY other type of engine, I'd use a synthetic regardless of what it called for, and regardless of OCI -- unless I were completely strapped for cash. I do think the "cheap insurance" idea gets taken too far, but in this case I'd be happy to embrace it.


Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko
I know there are some, perhaps unique, cases when maybe it makes sense to take the "if it ain't broke - don't fix it" approach or perhaps in some cases someone truly may not be able to afford a synthetic oil, or maybe it's a warranty requirement to use a certain oil, etc., etc. - I understand that and those cases. However, those aren't the instances I'm referring to.

I feel like a lot of people missed this, so... bolded for emphasis.

Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko
Like I'm sure many of you, I belong to a few different newsgroups and I frequently hear people say things like "Ah...oil is oil - just change it every x miles and call it good - there's all pretty much the same." I also can tell that some of these same people LOVE their vehicles and will go to extremes to upgrade this and change that, etc., etc., but say "Oh, that's O.K., I'm only going to keep the vehicle until x date, so it doesn't matter, etc."

Yeah, that's all baloney. Probably just rationalizations for being cheap and/or not knowing much about the subject.

 

[MNgopher]

Simple answer is cost. Using conventional at the manufacturers suggested intervals delivers a service life out of the engine that exceeds the service life of the body in a rust belt state.

 

[Ed_Flecko]

Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
...your interest in it.[/i][/b]


O.K., let's say, like most people, you decide to sell the car at some point.

Would it make any difference to YOU if your were buying a used car, and you asked the seller what type of oil they use and the seller said "I use SuperDuper Synthetic" or if they said "I use bargain basement Brand X from the Dollar Store"?

It would make HUGE difference to ME.

Ed

 

[4wheeldog]

Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko
I guess part of my confusion is that your motor is THE main component of your vehicle and you'd want to do the best you can to protect it? I think for most people, if the motor dies they're going to dump the vehicle.

I can see purchasing a lower quality tire, wiper blades, etc., etc., etc., for your car, but it just seems like spending a few dollars more for an oil that you KNOW is high quality might make sense? Even IF you think you're buying a better oil than you need?

Ed


Why do you assume that the motor will last longer on synthetic? The limitation may not be lubrication related......Maybe, for a particular engine, it is more likely to die from a cooling system failure.

And, as others have pointed out, having a perfect, unworn engine in a rusted out heap is not everyone's idea of "Better".

 

[4wheeldog]

Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko
Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
...your interest in it.[/i][/b]


O.K., let's say, like most people, you decide to sell the car at some point.

Would it make any difference to YOU if your were buying a used car, and you asked the seller what type of oil they use and the seller said "I use SuperDuper Synthetic" or if they said "I use bargain basement Brand X from the Dollar Store"?

It would make HUGE difference to ME.

Ed


Getting some sort of records that verified that the oil was actually changed at some reasonable interval would mean a whole lot more to me, than somebody telling me he changed the boutique synthetic every 2 years, 25k miles. Just sayin'.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko
I can see purchasing a lower quality tire, wiper blades, etc., etc., etc., for your car, but it just seems like spending a few dollars more for an oil that you KNOW is high quality might make sense? Even IF you think you're buying a better oil than you need?


You can apply the exact same principle to your tires, and tires are critically more important than oil. A quality tire can absolutely save your life, or at least help you avoid an accident (through better braking traction, etc). Why can you see purchasing a lower quality tire, but cannot see buying a lower quality oil?

Like many others have said, I believe the answer here is a mix of cost and applicability. Most people don't "use up" the full life of an oil, nor do they push an oil to the limits of its physical properties, both aspects where a synthetic oil is typically superior. So why should anyone spend money where there is no tangible gain? Just to know that they've bought the best?

Do you live in a typical stick-built house? If so, are your walls studded with 2x6s or 2x8s? If not, why not? They're clearly superior to 2x4s. What about the footings on your house. I hope they're twice as thick as they need to be, because that's stronger. Sure, the cost differential on these things is more than the typical difference between synthetic and conventional, but that's the mindset that most people take, including myself . I generally do not pay more if I don't receive the benefit of paying more. I don't run my oil to 10,000 miles, and don't drive in high performance driving events. I don't start my car in -15 deg F weather, and I don't drive in 120 deg F heat. I just don't operate my equipment in extremes, and I receive no benefit from paying more for synthetic oil.

Now...that's not to say that I don't use it. I have synthetic oil in our Honda right now...and semi-synthetic Ford Motorcraft oil in our Acura. Why? Got 'em on clearance for about $3/quart. I'll pay the SAME price for synthetic as I would a regular conventional, sure. But I won't pay more.

 

[Ed_Flecko]

Oh I agree 100% - you can TELL me whatever you want but you can be SURE I will VERIFY what you tell me!

Ed

 

[d00df00d]

To be fair, a synthetic can provide a little extra cushion if the cooling system fails.

Beyond that, though, I agree. If a conventional oil is good enough that something else will kill the car first, then it's that much harder to see the point of a synthetic. Engines and oil technology really are that good these days, if we're honest.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko
Would it make any difference to YOU if your were buying a used car, and you asked the seller what type of oil they use and the seller said "I use SuperDuper Synthetic" or if they said "I use bargain basement Brand X from the Dollar Store"?

It would make HUGE difference to ME.

Ed

I would want to see a complete service history to verify service was performed according to mfg specified interval and using an oil that meets the spec that the mfg called for, regardless if it was synthetic or mineral. Granted, for some mfg specs, you will not find a mineral alternative. And I would want to see the receipts and shop bills to prove it.

Asking the seller is kind of pointless, because he could tell you anything you wanted to hear. How would you verify?

 

[Nyogtha]

I'm +1 with Quattro Pete here.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko
I can see purchasing a lower quality tire

Whoa, whoa. Hold it right there.

I would skimp on oil LONG before I would skimp on tires. Longevity is NOT more important than safety.

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko
I guess part of my confusion is that your motor is THE main component of your vehicle and you'd want to do the best you can to protect it? I think for most people, if the motor dies they're going to dump the vehicle.

I can see purchasing a lower quality tire, wiper blades, etc., etc., etc., for your car, but it just seems like spending a few dollars more for an oil that you KNOW is high quality might make sense? Even IF you think you're buying a better oil than you need?

Ed


You can see lower quality tires? Really? It is the only thing that is making contact with the road... does not matter what any other part of the car is doing if you don't have traction. Tires are more critical than oil (IMO)... mostly because an engine is easier to replace than a life.

It is "hard"-er-ish to find bad oil (easy to find a bad tire). Basically all major and house brand oils are at a very high quality. Even those house-brand oils (say Walmart's Supertech) are surprisingly brilliant oils, even for $12-$13 a jug. You are not getting an inferior product. Heck, that modern SN supertech would probably as good as a lot of SJ synthetics.

If you have a 1999 vehicle (like me), how would a modern SN rated conventional not be protection enough for a SJ-era engine compared to an modern SN Syn? Basic SN conventional is going to be "over built" for 70%+ of all vehicles on the road. Unless the manufacturer dictates Syn for newer vehicles, then there is limited additional benefit (definitely much for the engine) for 100% increase in cost.

It is called engineering. Use the appropriate. materials and quality for the application Yes, you can use carbon-fiber for a kid's bicycle... but the materials are going to outlast the product and usefulness. Carbon-fiber for a serious cyclist, ok fine.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko
I can see purchasing a lower quality tire

Whoa, whoa. Hold it right there.

I would skimp on oil LONG before I would skimp on tires. Longevity is NOT more important than safety.

Huge +1

 

[Ed_Flecko]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko
Would it make any difference to YOU if your were buying a used car, and you asked the seller what type of oil they use and the seller said "I use SuperDuper Synthetic" or if they said "I use bargain basement Brand X from the Dollar Store"?

It would make HUGE difference to ME.

Ed

I would want to see a complete service history to verify service was performed according to mfg specified interval and using an oil that meets the spec that the mfg called for, regardless if it was synthetic or mineral. Granted, for some mfg specs, you will not find a mineral alternative. And I would want to see the receipts and shop bills to prove it.

Asking the seller is kind of pointless, because he could tell you anything you wanted to hear. How would you verify?




Pete - I agree completely. I, personally, do not take someone's "verbal guarantee" on how they've maintained a vehicle. Show me PROOF.

Ed

 

[BigCahuna]

If you change your oil at the recommended intervals, and keep the car for 200k miles, which will cost more to use? I'm betting it will be synthetic oil. Even conventional oil gets the ok to go longer between changes from most Blackstone tests. So saying synthetic lasts longer is bunk. Alot of people on this site couldn't stand doing extended changes with any type of oil, so again synthetic would be costlier to use for no added benefit.Then what if you don't plan on keeping the vehicle until the wheels turn square, why spend big money on a car or truck you won't own for more then a couple of years.,,