I also use TT fuel whenever I can. If you check the requirements to meet the TT level, you can see it is not PR. Ed
Old, dirty fuel tanker at my local Exxon.
- Thread starter j_mac
- Start date
- Status
Why didn't the car manufacturers go to the epa for better fuels?
Just asking, Jim
Just asking, Jim
Originally Posted By: j_mac
The Tanker rig flipped me out because it was reminiscent of the rig from the movie "Duel." The only difference was some old, faded 1980's lookin' faded out stripes in 2 colors. Something like orange and blue. I mean it was a freakin' ugly setup and just got me worrying.
I love old trucks! Did you snap a pic of it?
I don't know if you know this but I own a cousin to the truck from Duel.
The Tanker rig flipped me out because it was reminiscent of the rig from the movie "Duel." The only difference was some old, faded 1980's lookin' faded out stripes in 2 colors. Something like orange and blue. I mean it was a freakin' ugly setup and just got me worrying.
I don't know if you know this but I own a cousin to the truck from Duel.
While the 'look' of the tractor and tanker were un-impressive, I wouldn't be concerned about the fuel itself. Those tankers are sealed top and bottom. A irregular hauler might no get his rig washed regularly. It shouldn't affect the fuel being delivered.
What concerned me about the "shady" looking rig is an assumption in the back of my mind that the owner of the station may be cutting corners and getting a "shady" owner operator that is supplying gasoline without the Top Tier detergents at a slightly discounted price.
I'm going out of my way to buy Exxon in order to get high detergency.
Am I getting it?
Did that ugly rig have Exxon's detergent in it? Or is it just the bulk product that is delivered to No-Name gas stations?
I'm going out of my way to buy Exxon in order to get high detergency.
Am I getting it?
Did that ugly rig have Exxon's detergent in it? Or is it just the bulk product that is delivered to No-Name gas stations?
Originally Posted By: j_mac
What concerned me about the "shady" looking rig is an assumption in the back of my mind that the owner of the station may be cutting corners and getting a "shady" owner operator that is supplying gasoline without the Top Tier detergents at a slightly discounted price.
I'm going out of my way to buy Exxon in order to get high detergency.
Am I getting it?
Did that ugly rig have Exxon's detergent in it? Or is it just the bulk product that is delivered to No-Name gas stations?
As I said in another post:
It is AGAINST FEDERAL LAW to not sell the correct fuel in the labeled station.
Futhermore, do you think SHELL, Or Mobil, Or ect. . . are going to sit back and LOSE money while there franchised station sells no name cheaper gas?????
The gas company KNOWS exactly how many gallons of fuel is sold through the station each day. They also KNOW exactly how much fuel was bought. There is no such thing as getting away with putting no name gas in a labeled station's tank.
It's like a apple bee's franchise owner buying other, cheaper items from a food distributor to make extra money on there food sales, instead of getting the Applebee's items.
Yea, he might get away with it for a week. How long do you think it would take the corprate offices to find out??????
I PERSONALLY KNOW a person who LOST A SUNOCO station because his sold product did not meet the amount purchased from Sunoco.
What concerned me about the "shady" looking rig is an assumption in the back of my mind that the owner of the station may be cutting corners and getting a "shady" owner operator that is supplying gasoline without the Top Tier detergents at a slightly discounted price.
I'm going out of my way to buy Exxon in order to get high detergency.
Am I getting it?
Did that ugly rig have Exxon's detergent in it? Or is it just the bulk product that is delivered to No-Name gas stations?
As I said in another post:
It is AGAINST FEDERAL LAW to not sell the correct fuel in the labeled station.
Futhermore, do you think SHELL, Or Mobil, Or ect. . . are going to sit back and LOSE money while there franchised station sells no name cheaper gas?????
The gas company KNOWS exactly how many gallons of fuel is sold through the station each day. They also KNOW exactly how much fuel was bought. There is no such thing as getting away with putting no name gas in a labeled station's tank.
It's like a apple bee's franchise owner buying other, cheaper items from a food distributor to make extra money on there food sales, instead of getting the Applebee's items.
Yea, he might get away with it for a week. How long do you think it would take the corprate offices to find out??????
I PERSONALLY KNOW a person who LOST A SUNOCO station because his sold product did not meet the amount purchased from Sunoco.
Originally Posted By: rg200amp
Originally Posted By: pottymouth
Originally Posted By: rg200amp
False.
Top Tier was set up by CAR COMPANIES like BMW, Audi, VW, Honda, ect. . . It was set up becuase these car companies found that the EPA mandated minimum level of additives where not enough to maintain the performance in their engines.
A refinery provides a base fuel. A trucking company delivers the fuel after the brand specific additives are added to the tanker truck. A tanker truck can have up to 4, if not more depending on the situation, separate compartments inside tanker. So it can go to different branded stations during the drop off route.
People, educate your selves before you try to answer a question!
This getting old.
Good to know that CAR COMPANIES are not involved in marketing efforts. Seems to me that blaming lack of fuel additives for driveability problems might actually be a very good marketing scheme.
If this is a legitimate problem, where are the independent test results to prove that these additional additives do more than make people feel warm and fuzzy? I have asked this question before of the Top Tier fuel proponents and have yet to see any repsonse that is backed by actual independent testing. Prove it and I'll consider driving out of my way for Top Tier. Until then, these claims are no different than those made by Zmax, Fitch, Slick50 and the rest.
http://investor.lubrizol.com/phoenix.zht...&highlight=
Established by six of the world's top automakers (BMW, General Motors, Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen and Audi), the current TOP TIER standard goes beyond EPA minimum detergent requirements. The automakers suggest the EPA minimum detergent level (set in 1995) may no longer ensure optimal engine performance for their increasingly sophisticated engines.
The TOP TIER standard, which originally went into effect in May 2004, was updated in May 2008 and required additive manufacturers to submit fuel performance data from independent, accredited laboratories by November 29, 2010. Today, to be licensed as providing TOP TIER gasoline, fuel retailers must meet the updated TOP TIER standards in all grades of gasoline. In addition, each fuel outlet carrying the brand of the approved retailer must meet the TOP TIER standards
http://yel.pca.org/tech_fuel.php
I personally do not care about you driving out of your way or not. Buy whatever you want.
Your links are the same useless assertions made in the past. The first is the website of the manufacturer of the additives. Lubrizol is hardly an independent, objective source and even if they were, there are actual test results, just conjecture and unsubstantiated assertions. Even their own wording is puposefully vague. "The automakers suggest the EPA minimum detergent level (set in 1995) may no longer ensure optimal engine performance for their increasingly sophisticated engines." This is your proof?
The second is an auto enthusiast website which merely parrots information from Top Tier press releases and offers some vague hearsay about confirmation by unnamed industry insiders. Both are completely useless for someone who requires actual proof.
Test data needs to come from an independent source with the ability to conduct meaningful tests and no vested interest in the outcome. Tests with tightly controlled variables that actually measure results. until these are made available to the public, all this Top Tier hype is just that.
I too care little if you want to run around looking for the magical "Top Tier" elixir. What would be nice is if you would drop the condescending attitude since you have nothing to back it up. Some of us are not convinced that Top Tier offers any real world benefit. When you find some real, verifiable proof, feel free to share it with the rest of us.
Originally Posted By: pottymouth
Originally Posted By: rg200amp
False.
Top Tier was set up by CAR COMPANIES like BMW, Audi, VW, Honda, ect. . . It was set up becuase these car companies found that the EPA mandated minimum level of additives where not enough to maintain the performance in their engines.
A refinery provides a base fuel. A trucking company delivers the fuel after the brand specific additives are added to the tanker truck. A tanker truck can have up to 4, if not more depending on the situation, separate compartments inside tanker. So it can go to different branded stations during the drop off route.
People, educate your selves before you try to answer a question!
This getting old.
Good to know that CAR COMPANIES are not involved in marketing efforts. Seems to me that blaming lack of fuel additives for driveability problems might actually be a very good marketing scheme.
If this is a legitimate problem, where are the independent test results to prove that these additional additives do more than make people feel warm and fuzzy? I have asked this question before of the Top Tier fuel proponents and have yet to see any repsonse that is backed by actual independent testing. Prove it and I'll consider driving out of my way for Top Tier. Until then, these claims are no different than those made by Zmax, Fitch, Slick50 and the rest.
http://investor.lubrizol.com/phoenix.zht...&highlight=
Established by six of the world's top automakers (BMW, General Motors, Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen and Audi), the current TOP TIER standard goes beyond EPA minimum detergent requirements. The automakers suggest the EPA minimum detergent level (set in 1995) may no longer ensure optimal engine performance for their increasingly sophisticated engines.
The TOP TIER standard, which originally went into effect in May 2004, was updated in May 2008 and required additive manufacturers to submit fuel performance data from independent, accredited laboratories by November 29, 2010. Today, to be licensed as providing TOP TIER gasoline, fuel retailers must meet the updated TOP TIER standards in all grades of gasoline. In addition, each fuel outlet carrying the brand of the approved retailer must meet the TOP TIER standards
http://yel.pca.org/tech_fuel.php
I personally do not care about you driving out of your way or not. Buy whatever you want.
Your links are the same useless assertions made in the past. The first is the website of the manufacturer of the additives. Lubrizol is hardly an independent, objective source and even if they were, there are actual test results, just conjecture and unsubstantiated assertions. Even their own wording is puposefully vague. "The automakers suggest the EPA minimum detergent level (set in 1995) may no longer ensure optimal engine performance for their increasingly sophisticated engines." This is your proof?
The second is an auto enthusiast website which merely parrots information from Top Tier press releases and offers some vague hearsay about confirmation by unnamed industry insiders. Both are completely useless for someone who requires actual proof.
Test data needs to come from an independent source with the ability to conduct meaningful tests and no vested interest in the outcome. Tests with tightly controlled variables that actually measure results. until these are made available to the public, all this Top Tier hype is just that.
I too care little if you want to run around looking for the magical "Top Tier" elixir. What would be nice is if you would drop the condescending attitude since you have nothing to back it up. Some of us are not convinced that Top Tier offers any real world benefit. When you find some real, verifiable proof, feel free to share it with the rest of us.
Originally Posted By: pottymouth
Originally Posted By: rg200amp
Originally Posted By: pottymouth
Originally Posted By: rg200amp
False.
Top Tier was set up by CAR COMPANIES like BMW, Audi, VW, Honda, ect. . . It was set up becuase these car companies found that the EPA mandated minimum level of additives where not enough to maintain the performance in their engines.
A refinery provides a base fuel. A trucking company delivers the fuel after the brand specific additives are added to the tanker truck. A tanker truck can have up to 4, if not more depending on the situation, separate compartments inside tanker. So it can go to different branded stations during the drop off route.
People, educate your selves before you try to answer a question!
This getting old.
Good to know that CAR COMPANIES are not involved in marketing efforts. Seems to me that blaming lack of fuel additives for driveability problems might actually be a very good marketing scheme.
If this is a legitimate problem, where are the independent test results to prove that these additional additives do more than make people feel warm and fuzzy? I have asked this question before of the Top Tier fuel proponents and have yet to see any repsonse that is backed by actual independent testing. Prove it and I'll consider driving out of my way for Top Tier. Until then, these claims are no different than those made by Zmax, Fitch, Slick50 and the rest.
http://investor.lubrizol.com/phoenix.zht...&highlight=
Established by six of the world's top automakers (BMW, General Motors, Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen and Audi), the current TOP TIER standard goes beyond EPA minimum detergent requirements. The automakers suggest the EPA minimum detergent level (set in 1995) may no longer ensure optimal engine performance for their increasingly sophisticated engines.
The TOP TIER standard, which originally went into effect in May 2004, was updated in May 2008 and required additive manufacturers to submit fuel performance data from independent, accredited laboratories by November 29, 2010. Today, to be licensed as providing TOP TIER gasoline, fuel retailers must meet the updated TOP TIER standards in all grades of gasoline. In addition, each fuel outlet carrying the brand of the approved retailer must meet the TOP TIER standards
http://yel.pca.org/tech_fuel.php
I personally do not care about you driving out of your way or not. Buy whatever you want.
Your links are the same useless assertions made in the past. The first is the website of the manufacturer of the additives. Lubrizol is hardly an independent, objective source and even if they were, there are actual test results, just conjecture and unsubstantiated assertions. Even their own wording is puposefully vague. "The automakers suggest the EPA minimum detergent level (set in 1995) may no longer ensure optimal engine performance for their increasingly sophisticated engines." This is your proof?
The second is an auto enthusiast website which merely parrots information from Top Tier press releases and offers some vague hearsay about confirmation by unnamed industry insiders. Both are completely useless for someone who requires actual proof.
Test data needs to come from an independent source with the ability to conduct meaningful tests and no vested interest in the outcome. Tests with tightly controlled variables that actually measure results. until these are made available to the public, all this Top Tier hype is just that.
I too care little if you want to run around looking for the magical "Top Tier" elixir. What would be nice is if you would drop the condescending attitude since you have nothing to back it up. Some of us are not convinced that Top Tier offers any real world benefit. When you find some real, verifiable proof, feel free to share it with the rest of us.
What a waste of time that was.
Here is an idea. Back up your opinion with ANYTHING of value. Because I have backed mine up.
When you do. We will discuss further.
I am not going to debate YOUR personal view point. You post up something that supports your argument.
Thanks.
Originally Posted By: rg200amp
Originally Posted By: pottymouth
Originally Posted By: rg200amp
False.
Top Tier was set up by CAR COMPANIES like BMW, Audi, VW, Honda, ect. . . It was set up becuase these car companies found that the EPA mandated minimum level of additives where not enough to maintain the performance in their engines.
A refinery provides a base fuel. A trucking company delivers the fuel after the brand specific additives are added to the tanker truck. A tanker truck can have up to 4, if not more depending on the situation, separate compartments inside tanker. So it can go to different branded stations during the drop off route.
People, educate your selves before you try to answer a question!
This getting old.
Good to know that CAR COMPANIES are not involved in marketing efforts. Seems to me that blaming lack of fuel additives for driveability problems might actually be a very good marketing scheme.
If this is a legitimate problem, where are the independent test results to prove that these additional additives do more than make people feel warm and fuzzy? I have asked this question before of the Top Tier fuel proponents and have yet to see any repsonse that is backed by actual independent testing. Prove it and I'll consider driving out of my way for Top Tier. Until then, these claims are no different than those made by Zmax, Fitch, Slick50 and the rest.
http://investor.lubrizol.com/phoenix.zht...&highlight=
Established by six of the world's top automakers (BMW, General Motors, Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen and Audi), the current TOP TIER standard goes beyond EPA minimum detergent requirements. The automakers suggest the EPA minimum detergent level (set in 1995) may no longer ensure optimal engine performance for their increasingly sophisticated engines.
The TOP TIER standard, which originally went into effect in May 2004, was updated in May 2008 and required additive manufacturers to submit fuel performance data from independent, accredited laboratories by November 29, 2010. Today, to be licensed as providing TOP TIER gasoline, fuel retailers must meet the updated TOP TIER standards in all grades of gasoline. In addition, each fuel outlet carrying the brand of the approved retailer must meet the TOP TIER standards
http://yel.pca.org/tech_fuel.php
I personally do not care about you driving out of your way or not. Buy whatever you want.
Your links are the same useless assertions made in the past. The first is the website of the manufacturer of the additives. Lubrizol is hardly an independent, objective source and even if they were, there are actual test results, just conjecture and unsubstantiated assertions. Even their own wording is puposefully vague. "The automakers suggest the EPA minimum detergent level (set in 1995) may no longer ensure optimal engine performance for their increasingly sophisticated engines." This is your proof?
The second is an auto enthusiast website which merely parrots information from Top Tier press releases and offers some vague hearsay about confirmation by unnamed industry insiders. Both are completely useless for someone who requires actual proof.
Test data needs to come from an independent source with the ability to conduct meaningful tests and no vested interest in the outcome. Tests with tightly controlled variables that actually measure results. until these are made available to the public, all this Top Tier hype is just that.
I too care little if you want to run around looking for the magical "Top Tier" elixir. What would be nice is if you would drop the condescending attitude since you have nothing to back it up. Some of us are not convinced that Top Tier offers any real world benefit. When you find some real, verifiable proof, feel free to share it with the rest of us.
What a waste of time that was.
Here is an idea. Back up your opinion with ANYTHING of value. Because I have backed mine up.
When you do. We will discuss further.
I am not going to debate YOUR personal view point. You post up something that supports your argument.
Thanks.
Since 1995, all gasoline sold in the U.S. must include an EPA-approved detergent additive. All Costco gas has always contained these additives. Costco gas stations are well maintained and our fuel has always been 100% guaranteed.
Increasing Federal emissions and mileage requirements, plus the competitive pressures of the automotive marketplace, have led to improved and more complicated engine designs. These improvements make many engines more sensitive to carbon deposits on intake valves and clogged fuel injectors. Dirty engines can sometimes trigger a "check engine" dashboard warning light. Many of the latest model vehicles perform better using fuel that contains more than the minimum EPA detergent requirement.
As our valued member, you expect Costco to always offer the finest quality products at the best possible price. Gasoline is no exception. Costco has closely studied fuel additives and engine deposits, and conducted extensive fuel tests at nationally-recognized laboratories. As a result, we decided to increase the detergent additives in our fuel to provide a better value to our members. Cleaner engines run better, run longer, and they pollute less.
Costco gas with Kirkland Signature Clean Power detergent additives contains five times the EPA detergent requirement. Clean Power doesn't just keep your engine clean - it also helps remove any existing deposits. Costco Gasoline - Something good just got better!
Look for the notice above each pump as we add Kirkland Signature Clean Power detergent additive to the fuel at all our gas stations
Increasing Federal emissions and mileage requirements, plus the competitive pressures of the automotive marketplace, have led to improved and more complicated engine designs. These improvements make many engines more sensitive to carbon deposits on intake valves and clogged fuel injectors. Dirty engines can sometimes trigger a "check engine" dashboard warning light. Many of the latest model vehicles perform better using fuel that contains more than the minimum EPA detergent requirement.
As our valued member, you expect Costco to always offer the finest quality products at the best possible price. Gasoline is no exception. Costco has closely studied fuel additives and engine deposits, and conducted extensive fuel tests at nationally-recognized laboratories. As a result, we decided to increase the detergent additives in our fuel to provide a better value to our members. Cleaner engines run better, run longer, and they pollute less.
Costco gas with Kirkland Signature Clean Power detergent additives contains five times the EPA detergent requirement. Clean Power doesn't just keep your engine clean - it also helps remove any existing deposits. Costco Gasoline - Something good just got better!
Look for the notice above each pump as we add Kirkland Signature Clean Power detergent additive to the fuel at all our gas stations
Originally Posted By: j_mac
My question is, how do I know the gas they are selling at this Exxon station has the proper Exxon Top Tier additives in it? Are there safeguards, and/or fines or whatever to help ensure that the public will get the advertized product?
Opinions?
Ask the gas station for a copy of the MSDS for their fuel which has to be supplied by the supplier. This is an easy way to tell where they are getting the fuel from.
My question is, how do I know the gas they are selling at this Exxon station has the proper Exxon Top Tier additives in it? Are there safeguards, and/or fines or whatever to help ensure that the public will get the advertized product?
Opinions?
Ask the gas station for a copy of the MSDS for their fuel which has to be supplied by the supplier. This is an easy way to tell where they are getting the fuel from.
rg200amp,
Thank you for the reassuring info. Not being a business or marketing type, its hard for me to understand. Makes sense what you said.
chad,
How come Costco is not listed as a Top Tier retailers at www.toptiergas.com?
Thank you for the reassuring info. Not being a business or marketing type, its hard for me to understand. Makes sense what you said.
chad,
How come Costco is not listed as a Top Tier retailers at www.toptiergas.com?
Originally Posted By: rg200amp
What a waste of time that was.
Here is an idea. Back up your opinion with ANYTHING of value. Because I have backed mine up.
When you do. We will discuss further.
I am not going to debate YOUR personal view point. You post up something that supports your argument.
Thanks.
You're right about one thing. It was a complete waste of time to think that someone so condescending would actually have a constructive discussion.
You have backed up nothing. Where are the actual independent test results? Do you understand what this is? A credible organization with no motive to skew the results must perform scientific tests with a control set to determine if any of the Top Tier CLAIMS are actually true. Just because they sound logical does not make them valid.
How about several identical engines run under identical, real-world conditions and using different fuels (some Top Tier, some not) with a complete teardown and analysis after simulating a predetermined number of miles? It would include measured and verifiable variables like throttle response, fuel economy, HP and torque throughout the curve, etc. That would be actual proof, unlike the links you posted.
Is this what you consider proof? "The TOP TIER standard, which originally went into effect in May 2004, was updated in May 2008 and required additive manufacturers to submit fuel performance data from independent, accredited laboratories by November 29, 2010." Sounds nice, but where is the actual data? Where on Lubrizol's site (or anywhere else for that matter) is this information located? Educate me, oh enlightened one.
Since you are so fully convinced of the benefits of Top Tier, you no doubt have seen the "fuel performance dsta" mentioned above. Can you share it with the rest of us? If you can do that, I will be happy to consider it. Until then, I'll waste no further time with you.
What a waste of time that was.
Here is an idea. Back up your opinion with ANYTHING of value. Because I have backed mine up.
When you do. We will discuss further.
I am not going to debate YOUR personal view point. You post up something that supports your argument.
Thanks.
You're right about one thing. It was a complete waste of time to think that someone so condescending would actually have a constructive discussion.
You have backed up nothing. Where are the actual independent test results? Do you understand what this is? A credible organization with no motive to skew the results must perform scientific tests with a control set to determine if any of the Top Tier CLAIMS are actually true. Just because they sound logical does not make them valid.
How about several identical engines run under identical, real-world conditions and using different fuels (some Top Tier, some not) with a complete teardown and analysis after simulating a predetermined number of miles? It would include measured and verifiable variables like throttle response, fuel economy, HP and torque throughout the curve, etc. That would be actual proof, unlike the links you posted.
Is this what you consider proof? "The TOP TIER standard, which originally went into effect in May 2004, was updated in May 2008 and required additive manufacturers to submit fuel performance data from independent, accredited laboratories by November 29, 2010." Sounds nice, but where is the actual data? Where on Lubrizol's site (or anywhere else for that matter) is this information located? Educate me, oh enlightened one.
Since you are so fully convinced of the benefits of Top Tier, you no doubt have seen the "fuel performance dsta" mentioned above. Can you share it with the rest of us? If you can do that, I will be happy to consider it. Until then, I'll waste no further time with you.
My local Exxon has pictures of two engine valves on every pump--one filthy with deposits, the other squeaky clean after using Exxon fuel. What more proof do you need? (j/k)
Originally Posted By: pottymouth
Originally Posted By: rg200amp
What a waste of time that was.
Here is an idea. Back up your opinion with ANYTHING of value. Because I have backed mine up.
When you do. We will discuss further.
I am not going to debate YOUR personal view point. You post up something that supports your argument.
Thanks.
You're right about one thing. It was a complete waste of time to think that someone so condescending would actually have a constructive discussion.
You have backed up nothing. Where are the actual independent test results? Do you understand what this is? A credible organization with no motive to skew the results must perform scientific tests with a control set to determine if any of the Top Tier CLAIMS are actually true. Just because they sound logical does not make them valid.
How about several identical engines run under identical, real-world conditions and using different fuels (some Top Tier, some not) with a complete teardown and analysis after simulating a predetermined number of miles? It would include measured and verifiable variables like throttle response, fuel economy, HP and torque throughout the curve, etc. That would be actual proof, unlike the links you posted.
Is this what you consider proof? "The TOP TIER standard, which originally went into effect in May 2004, was updated in May 2008 and required additive manufacturers to submit fuel performance data from independent, accredited laboratories by November 29, 2010." Sounds nice, but where is the actual data? Where on Lubrizol's site (or anywhere else for that matter) is this information located? Educate me, oh enlightened one.
Since you are so fully convinced of the benefits of Top Tier, you no doubt have seen the "fuel performance dsta" mentioned above. Can you share it with the rest of us? If you can do that, I will be happy to consider it. Until then, I'll waste no further time with you.
Im still waiting for ANYTHING to back your opinion. Do you blindly believe your opinion with out any backing??? I assume you have info you can share. Until then, as I said, im not continuing this convo with you. It is pointless to debate YOUR (wrong) personal opinion with no backing to it.
Anyway. Back on topic.
VW,Audi,Honda,GM,Toyota,ect. . . All recommend the use of Top Tier fuel.
They do not market a BRAND of gas. (unlike ford and BP fuel)
There are MANY different (competing gas stations) that meet top tier fuel standards.
Use what you want.
http://www.audiusa.com/us/brand/en/owners/audi_service/service/audi_top_tier_requirements.html
http://www.acura.ca/owners/top-tier-gas
Originally Posted By: rg200amp
What a waste of time that was.
Here is an idea. Back up your opinion with ANYTHING of value. Because I have backed mine up.
When you do. We will discuss further.
I am not going to debate YOUR personal view point. You post up something that supports your argument.
Thanks.
You're right about one thing. It was a complete waste of time to think that someone so condescending would actually have a constructive discussion.
You have backed up nothing. Where are the actual independent test results? Do you understand what this is? A credible organization with no motive to skew the results must perform scientific tests with a control set to determine if any of the Top Tier CLAIMS are actually true. Just because they sound logical does not make them valid.
How about several identical engines run under identical, real-world conditions and using different fuels (some Top Tier, some not) with a complete teardown and analysis after simulating a predetermined number of miles? It would include measured and verifiable variables like throttle response, fuel economy, HP and torque throughout the curve, etc. That would be actual proof, unlike the links you posted.
Is this what you consider proof? "The TOP TIER standard, which originally went into effect in May 2004, was updated in May 2008 and required additive manufacturers to submit fuel performance data from independent, accredited laboratories by November 29, 2010." Sounds nice, but where is the actual data? Where on Lubrizol's site (or anywhere else for that matter) is this information located? Educate me, oh enlightened one.
Since you are so fully convinced of the benefits of Top Tier, you no doubt have seen the "fuel performance dsta" mentioned above. Can you share it with the rest of us? If you can do that, I will be happy to consider it. Until then, I'll waste no further time with you.
Im still waiting for ANYTHING to back your opinion. Do you blindly believe your opinion with out any backing??? I assume you have info you can share. Until then, as I said, im not continuing this convo with you. It is pointless to debate YOUR (wrong) personal opinion with no backing to it.
Anyway. Back on topic.
VW,Audi,Honda,GM,Toyota,ect. . . All recommend the use of Top Tier fuel.
They do not market a BRAND of gas. (unlike ford and BP fuel)
There are MANY different (competing gas stations) that meet top tier fuel standards.
Use what you want.
http://www.audiusa.com/us/brand/en/owners/audi_service/service/audi_top_tier_requirements.html
http://www.acura.ca/owners/top-tier-gas
So after reading all of this...
I have found that there are two types of gasoline, Automobile and Lawnmower.
I would add that at least 85% of the Car Dealers out here recommend my using Nitrogen in my tires.
If there is truly a problem with the current additives for gasoline... Then why hasn't the EPA stepped in and taken care of the Tax Payers/Environment?
Jim
I have found that there are two types of gasoline, Automobile and Lawnmower.
I would add that at least 85% of the Car Dealers out here recommend my using Nitrogen in my tires.
If there is truly a problem with the current additives for gasoline... Then why hasn't the EPA stepped in and taken care of the Tax Payers/Environment?
Jim
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: AstroTurf
So after reading all of this...
I have found that there are two types of gasoline, Automobile and Lawnmower.
Jim
Really? Where can I buy some of this elusive lawnmower gas? All these years I've been buying it from the same place I get my car gas.
So after reading all of this...
I have found that there are two types of gasoline, Automobile and Lawnmower.
Jim
Really? Where can I buy some of this elusive lawnmower gas? All these years I've been buying it from the same place I get my car gas.
FWIW, here are the test criteria for Top Tier gas participants:
http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html
I do understand the difference between test criteria and test results. It would be nice to see reported test results, and comparisons to non-Top Tier gas suppliers.
http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html
I do understand the difference between test criteria and test results. It would be nice to see reported test results, and comparisons to non-Top Tier gas suppliers.
Originally Posted By: glum
FWIW, here are the test criteria for Top Tier gas participants:
http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html
I do understand the difference between test criteria and test results. It would be nice to see reported test results, and comparisons to non-Top Tier gas suppliers.
That won't be enough for some though.
Maybe if someone asks nicely, the Top Tier companoes would release their reports.
But oil companies, AFAIK, don't release tests results that shows they passed various auto maker's teste either.
To get LL-01, for example, you have to meet certain standarts.
I would gather that to get TT, it's the same. And the oil companies have to pay for the tests.
Just like I never used oilthat wasn't LL-98 or better, I don't use gas that isn't TT. Except for BP. But that may change as there is only one station left in my area.
FWIW, here are the test criteria for Top Tier gas participants:
http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html
I do understand the difference between test criteria and test results. It would be nice to see reported test results, and comparisons to non-Top Tier gas suppliers.
That won't be enough for some though.
Maybe if someone asks nicely, the Top Tier companoes would release their reports.
But oil companies, AFAIK, don't release tests results that shows they passed various auto maker's teste either.
To get LL-01, for example, you have to meet certain standarts.
I would gather that to get TT, it's the same. And the oil companies have to pay for the tests.
Just like I never used oilthat wasn't LL-98 or better, I don't use gas that isn't TT. Except for BP. But that may change as there is only one station left in my area.
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