Soooo gassed up at CEFCO today..

[WeyounDS9]

Only my second full tank of gas on this new vehicle.
I was going to drive on post for fuel, which is the least expensive Premium in the area, but decided it was not worth the trip on this lazy Sunday.

So I went to CEFCO and it appears I misrembered that it was Top Tier fuel.

Guess its not, since its not on the "list"

Fuel Stations - TOP TIER™

TOP TIER™ Licensed Brands prominently display the TOP TIER™ logo on the pump, pump handle, canopy or in a station window.

www.toptiergas.com

In my area all the big brand names like Shell, Exxon (which is big here), Marathon, BP, Shell are.
So while I know I didn't "hurt" my new car this is certainly something I will not repeat.
Paid a good penny per gallon since I went 93 Octane anyway.

On CEFCOs website they claim they "carefully add a generous amount of quality detergents exceeding EPA".
But that does not mean all that much.
It used to be that the premium still received extra detergents over the Regular fuel, but I suspect those days are gone.

Still am curious what the thoughts of the cognoscenti on this fuel are.
My intent generally is to stick to top tier.

 

[CKN]

JMHO-Your vehicle will suffer no long term effects if you run top tier or not. Why you say? Because I have towed a 5,000 pound travel trailer all over the Rocky Mountain West up 8,000 foot mountain passes and my truck didn't blow up.

 

[CharBaby]

I have never seen the “Top Tier” logo at any of the Exxon or Mobil gas stations that I frequent even though the are on the list of Top Tier stations in the US.

 

[Cujet]

Add an ounce of Techron per tank and you have achieved what Chevron does. All the fuel comes from the very same place, and the secret sauce they add, is so minor in nature, if they even add it at all, as to be close to meaningless.

You may not even be getting the octane you pay for. In NY, I often don't. But I have a OBD2 reader to know.

My car hates low octane and MPG plummets.

 

[nicholas]

Only my second full tank of gas on this new vehicle.
I was going to drive on post for fuel, which is the least expensive Premium in the area, but decided it was not worth the trip on this lazy Sunday.

So I went to CEFCO and it appears I misrembered that it was Top Tier fuel.

Guess its not, since its not on the "list"

Fuel Stations - TOP TIER™

TOP TIER™ Licensed Brands prominently display the TOP TIER™ logo on the pump, pump handle, canopy or in a station window.

www.toptiergas.com

In my area all the big brand names like Shell, Exxon (which is big here), Marathon, BP, Shell are.
So while I know I didn't "hurt" my new car this is certainly something I will not repeat.
Paid a good penny per gallon since I went 93 Octane anyway.

On CEFCOs website they claim they "carefully add a generous amount of quality detergents exceeding EPA".
But that does not mean all that much.
It used to be that the premium still received extra detergents over the Regular fuel, but I suspect those days are gone.

Still am curious what the thoughts of the cognoscenti on this fuel are.
My intent generally is to stick to top tier.

Top tier always for our cars

 

[ATex7239]

I prefer TT cause it is readily available and the price is negligible to non TT. That said, I periodically use non out of convenience and it is fine.

 

[USask2000]

In Canada some of the large retailers have opted out of Top Tier. Namely Esso and Petro Canada. They must think it’s not worth the fees any longer.

 

[y_p_w]

The base fuel itself is almost always a commodity grade, fungible fuel. Cost of transportation isn't insignificant, and there's really no point to moving fuel further than it needs to be - typically by pipeline. It's not always the same (I understand that crude oil source can be a factor), but as a commodity there's little control over those tiny little things that might be measurably different.

The only thing that Top Tier is supposed to guarantee is that the fuel (when properly mixed with the detergent) meets their testing requirements at a specified treatment concentration. I do wonder about Costco's method of mixing supplemental detergent additive at the point of gas station delivery while customers are still pumping fuel. However, they're still Top Tier licensed, so I suppose Top Tier accepts it.

There's no obligation for any fuel marketer to license from Top Tier. There's obviously a cost and there have been cases where it was obvious that a company still met the testing requirement but opted out. Costco had their "Clean Power" system at selected gas stations, but once they had it at all their gas stations they met the Top Tier requirement and the Top Tier signs were out immediately along with a rename to "Kirkland Signature Gasoline". Sunoco suspended their license for some time but then went back. I think they were citing the availability of their additives, so that could have been a case where they might not have met the performance requirements. For the longest time, BP didn't participate even though they claimed to meet a high standard and that they still do now that they dropped out.

 

[Skippy722]

I do wonder about Costco's method of mixing supplemental detergent additive at the point of gas station delivery while customers are still pumping fuel. However, they're still Top Tier licensed, so I suppose Top Tier accepts it.

If I had to guess they’re using some sort of mixer similar to what machine shops use for machine coolant. As the water flows through there is some black magic that happens and what comes out the other side is perfectly mixed coolant at whatever percentage you set it at.

 

[ctechbob]

If I had to guess they’re using some sort of mixer similar to what machine shops use for machine coolant. As the water flows through there is some black magic that happens and what comes out the other side is perfectly mixed coolant at whatever percentage you set it at.

Probably not even that complicated. Likely just an injection line that pumps at a given rate to match the flow from the main pump and squirts it into the main line. Just traveling from the pumps to the nozzle should be plenty to mix it. If not, it will mix in the tank the first time the car moves.

I too am one of the ones that never pay attention to TT at the pump. My 280k Accord has never cared, and it never needed any fuel system service except maybe a bottle of Techron every year or so when I think about it. I assure you the wife isn't looking for TT either since she's the one driving the car these days.

Even the Ranger with its turbocharged DI engine just gets gas from well-known brands (Usually Racetrac or QuickTrip around home, Loves/Pilot/Whateverelse when we're camping.) If TT gas would prevent intake valve deposits, I would use that exclusively, but since it doesn't, the truck gets whatever. Premium when towing, anywhere from 87-89-93 when not depending on the mood I'm in.

 

[y_p_w]

If I had to guess they’re using some sort of mixer similar to what machine shops use for machine coolant. As the water flows through there is some black magic that happens and what comes out the other side is perfectly mixed coolant at whatever percentage you set it at.

A lot of what the public knows about it came from various presentations that Costco made around a decade ago. Just static PowerPoint slides really. Back then they claimed the additive was "UltraZol 9888" from Lubrizol, although the EPA database only lists several variations on "Lubrizol 9888". But they made clear that the detergent is delivered in concentrated form to their gas stations and stored in tanks for metering when they get their deliveries. I was under the impression that it was unadditized at the fuel depot, but later found out that the "lowest additive concentration" is required by US federal regulations to be in the fuel by the time it gets into a tanker for transportation to gas stations. So at the very least there will be a uniform amount of the "LAC" delivered to each Costco gas station.

But here's the 2013 presentation:

https://www.neiwpcc.org/tanks2013old/presentations/tuesday/Fuel%20Additives%20and%20DEF/Fuel%20Additives_Hurlocker_2013_Tuesday.pdf

​

Automated Injection System​

Customized control unit manages the system:​

– Additive turbine and meter in the additive tank sump.​

– Solenoid valves in each gasoline tank fill sump.​

• Attendant keys total fuel gallons immediately prior to each delivery.​

• Additive automatically injected at a programmable treat rate.​

• Additive is mixed with the fuel by the delivery agitation.​

Apparently this is what they use (or at least an example of this model flow meter controller was shown in that presentation) :

My concern would be if this could somehow deal with variable flow rates. Also - I've seen various additives mixed with liquids (like a food dye in water) before, and it will tend to look cloudy as the additive mixes, but then takes some time reach equilibrium where it's properly blended. I'm thinking it's not ideally blended and there's a chance that the cloudy mixture is sucked into the fuel pumps that customers are using while the fuel is delivered.

At the fuel depot is almost guaranteed to be mixed by the time it's delivered to the gas station. They meter the correct amount and it gets "splash blended" by the motion of the fuel entering the tanker. And it's almost assuredly going to be uniformly distributed by the time it gets to the gas station via sloshing of the fuel. So if there's uniformly blended fuel in the gas station underground tank and uniformly blended fuel coming out of the tanker during delivery, it should be at the same concentration even if customers are actively pumping gas.

Ideally for delivery they would stop the pumping of gas and give it some time for the fuel to blend, but then again they're still meeting the EPA requirements if the tanker fuel has enough detergent additive. However, they claim this in the summary of that presentation:

Sophisticated reporting confirms that every delivery is properly additized.​

 

[y_p_w]

Just an addendum to my previous post. That presentation doesn't mention Lubrizol or the particular manufacturer or name of the additive, but I specifically remember earlier presentations stating "UltraZol 9888". OK - I found an earlier version (2011) of the presentation that's archived on another board's servers for some reason. Also - it doesn't specifically indicate whether or not it was custom additive made for Costco. It could very well be Costco's choice of an off the shelf additive at the time, and there's no guarantee that they'd still using it. They could be using a different additive and they wouldn't need to tell anyone about it except maybe the Top Tier Gas organization.

https://www.f150forum.com/attachments/f118/562975d1647873925-thanks-i-can-tell-difference-using-costco-gas-kirkland_signature_clean_power_gasoline_additive.pdf