No 0w20 in Australia and this is why

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Garak
They don't need a tenth of a percent better fuel economy by switching to 0w-20. They need a vehicle that actually gets acceptable fuel economy to begin with, and whether it's running on 15w-40 or 0w-20 is close to irrelevant.

If CAFE went bye-bye and fuel jumped to $10 per gallon here or in the States, things might be different.

Garak, you make some good points but gross exageration doesn't help. The fuel economy gains with high VI 0W-20s are significant (not 1/10 of a %) but still in the low percentage area and that's compared to a light A1/B1 5W-30.
Compared to an archaic 15W-40 deisel oil (that no OEM recommends) it's at least 5%. And even 5% is hard for someone to measure for themselves; that's only 2 mpg on a car that gets 40mpg.

It's interesting that those that pooh-pooh high VI 0W-20 oils have actually never tried one for themselves. Those that do often become big converts, not just for the maximized fuel economy but the noticeably improved engine performance.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
After any number of thick vs thin threads, all we really know is that either a twenty grade or a thirty grade will work just fine in most engines, with no systematic difference in engine life.
While the adoption of 5W & 0W-20s may have been motivated at least in part by the desire to maximize the fuel efficiency of existing designs, it has also provided other benefits.
Nothing wrong with running the Aussie or Brit or Kiwi thick oil in your engine or the Yank thin one.
Either will work and will allow the engine to last longer than the car in which it's installed.


I agree in part, but I really think the thumbs up goes to the 30 grade oil for engine life over the 20 grade oil. Especially in severe service, high speed, and high heat applications. It really is sad seeing some automakers only allowing a 20 grade oil and giving the owner no other options while under warranty. Yet in other parts of the world they have options with identical engines. If that isn't uncle Sam playing into it then what is it? Is it the automakers only want the cars sold in the USA to use the very best viscosity oil for their engines and in the other parts of the world they'd rather see shorter engine life? The more I read into it the more I realize something isn't adding. JMO

 

[svhanc]

The automakers need their vehicles to be absolutely reliable to 100k miles. After that, there is almost a negative incentive for additional life from a business model standpoint.
When you combine that with financial incentives from the government for increased fuel economy, it makes sense that they would err on the thinner side.

Does that make Xw20 the best oil for everyone? No. Is it the best oil for mileage-conscious people that tend to not keep their vehicles beyond 100k? Probably Yes.

If you are looking at getting 250k+ miles out of your vehicle and you believe that Xw30 would provide better protection then you have every reason to use the higher weight.

Will either oil kill your engine in a manner that will make you point to the oil and have conclusive evidence? Probably not.

The world may never know.

 

[mechtech2]

Car engines have not been around as long as horses.

So what's the trend?

Straight weights.
Multigrades.
Thinner multigrades.
And all with better and better additives.

20-50 is not going to be the norm in 10 years.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: Norm Olt


Ever notice our sacred Dept. of Energy telling us what kind of oil not to use?


Actually, no, I haven't noticed that at all...

Originally Posted By: Norm Olt
How many billion $'s down THAT rathole since Jimmy Carter (now the 2nd worst President in our short history) created it to "reduce our Energy Dependance on imported oil"?



Is there really a shortage of online forums where you can spew political garbage that you really need to violate the rules of this one? Just wonderin'.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: svhanc


If you are looking at getting 250k+ miles out of your vehicle and you believe that Xw30 would provide better protection then you have every reason to use the higher weight.


That's not a reason, that's belief. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but let's call it what it is: "belief". I haven't seen any logical reasons to suggest that a 30W oil will increase the lifecycle of my engine, but I have seen reasons to suggest that a high VI 20W oil may offer some marginal benefit to decreasing wear, which is why I'm using a 20W oil that's very thin at start-up. Keep in mind, that's "reasoning", not "proof"; but I'll take it over "belief". At the end of the day, I agree any difference will be pretty small. I disagree with your suggestion that 20W oils somehow shorten the lifecycle, though. There's zero evidence of that being the case.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Silk
Originally Posted By: Garak


In other parts of the world, where fuel prices are much, much higher, it's the customer that is penalized for poor fuel economy. They don't need a tenth of a percent better fuel economy by switching to 0w-20. They need a vehicle that actually gets acceptable fuel economy to begin with,


Yes, in other parts of the world people don't need a specific oil to get an economical vehicle, they just use an economical vehicle to begin with - 4 cyl cars, diesel cars and commercial vehicles. Makes more sense to me.


Very well said, both of you.

 

[fdcg27]

Nothing prevents an owner from using a thirty grade in an engine for which a twenty is recommended.
Unless the thicker oil actually causes engine damage, which is about as likely as Ferrari naming its next limited run hypercar model "Haas", the use of a thirty grade would have no warranty consequences, especially since thicker oils are recommended for the same engines in other markets.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

It's interesting that those that pooh-pooh high VI 0W-20 oils have actually never tried one for themselves. Those that do often become big converts, not just for the maximized fuel economy but the noticeably improved engine performance.


That is certainly not true. I use 0W20 in my Prius that sees city service and it's a great oil for that application, especially with engine working only part time.

I would not use it it my other non-hybrid cars that specify 5W30. As a matter of fact, my RAV4 developed an engine knock when Toyota dealer used 5W20 as per their poorly worded 5W20 TSB. I'm still trying to deal with that noise.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Nothing prevents an owner from using a thirty grade in an engine for which a twenty is recommended.
Unless the thicker oil actually causes engine damage, which is about as likely as Ferrari naming its next limited run hypercar model "Haas", the use of a thirty grade would have no warranty consequences, especially since thicker oils are recommended for the same engines in other markets.


and in the owners manual under severe service.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
After any number of thick vs thin threads, all we really know is that either a twenty grade or a thirty grade will work just fine in most engines, with no systematic difference in engine life.
While the adoption of 5W & 0W-20s may have been motivated at least in part by the desire to maximize the fuel efficiency of existing designs, it has also provided other benefits.
Nothing wrong with running the Aussie or Brit or Kiwi thick oil in your engine or the Yank thin one.
Either will work and will allow the engine to last longer than the car in which it's installed.


I agree in part, but I really think the thumbs up goes to the 30 grade oil for engine life over the 20 grade oil. Especially in severe service, high speed, and high heat applications. It really is sad seeing some automakers only allowing a 20 grade oil and giving the owner no other options while under warranty. Yet in other parts of the world they have options with identical engines. If that isn't uncle Sam playing into it then what is it? Is it the automakers only want the cars sold in the USA to use the very best viscosity oil for their engines and in the other parts of the world they'd rather see shorter engine life? The more I read into it the more I realize something isn't adding. JMO

As JOD so articulately pointed out, that's your belief but you have no proof, in fact I'd go further and say it's a false assumption.
When a manufacturer spec's a 20wt oil extreme conditions are factored in. Some like Toyota may suggest a grade heavier oil may be "more suitable" under certain extreme conditions but they're not mandating it. "More suitable" may simply mean to offset higher oil consumption that may occur at higher oil temp's and at high rev's and using a light 30wt oil no longer has the disadvantages it does have at lower operating temp's.
Increased engine wear is not mentioned or implied if one continues to use the specified 20wt oil.

In fact it has been pointed out recently that a 2.6cP 20wt oil shows no increase in engine wear as oil temp's rise until a certain very high oil temp' is reached, and 130C was mentioned in the example.
This is an oil temp' (or whatever it is a particular application) that is not hard for a OEM to avoid through a number of engineering fail safe systems.

And the remark that a OEM is only concerned about getting through the warranty period is pure nonsense. If there was even a hint of a rumour that their engines were starting to wear out prematurely, say even at 300,000 miles, that bad publicity would and is avoided at all costs.

I've said this many times, but if one is seriously concerned about the remaining safety margin in running a 20wt oil under extreme conditions, then install an oil pressure and/or oil temperature gauge. And without exception, everyone I know who has, comes away more than satisfied that running a 30wt oil is totally unnecessary.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM



As JOD so articulately pointed out, that's your belief but you have no proof, in fact I'd go further and say it's a false assumption.
When a manufacturer spec's a 20wt oil extreme conditions are factored in. Some like Toyota may suggest a grade heavier oil may be "more suitable" under certain extreme conditions but they're not mandating it. "More suitable" may simply mean to offset higher oil consumption that may occur at higher oil temp's and at high rev's and using a light 30wt oil no longer has the disadvantages it does have at lower operating temp's.
Increased engine wear is not mentioned or implied if one continues to use the specified 20wt oil.



Ok and why do some mfgs give only one choice of oil for the US applications, 5W20. In other parts of the world the user can make the choice, only here in the USA we can't. We tow, probably a lot more than in other parts of the world, and drive in extreme heat. I have only one choice 5W20 for my Liberty to keep the warranty people happy, in any and all conditions encountered in the USA. On the other side of the world they have choices.

You said: QUOTE: "More suitable" MAY simply mean to offset higher oil consumption that may occur at higher oil temp's and at high rev's and using a light 30wt oil no longer has the disadvantages it does have at lower operating temp's.

Is that fact or your opinion? The word "MAY" is throwing me off. Is oil consumption the only reason they allow for a thicker oil, or is better protection a part of the equation as well in extreme heat, towing, or severe service?

BTW I use 0W20 in my Jeep Liberty which at one time was spec'd for 5W30 in earlier model years. So I'm not bashing 20 grade oils, but do have my doubts about which is actually best for my engine.

 

[tribocessive]

2005 tacoma 2trfe 671,000 miles; 5W20 dino and especially 0W20 synthetic through almost all of its life; i would have put many more miles on this vehicle if i had not wrecked it; yes it started burning oil-at 350,000 miles; reality- not theoretical- not belief.

 

[Y_K]

I see a lot of empirical evidence with over 300 taxi cabs, limos and other drive for hire operators that the thinner oil is not going to keep your cap-ex for over 350k miles in business. I would love to have 5% in fuel saving with high VI thin oil.. I drive 75-90k miles per year.
When amateurs will learn what cap-ex, op-ex and ROI means? Never.

 

[friendly_jacek]

100,000 miles per year? Impressive. What do you do for living? BTW, this is $13,333 in fuel cost per year considering 30MPG.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The fuel economy gains with high VI 0W-20s are significant (not 1/10 of a %) but still in the low percentage area and that's compared to a light A1/B1 5W-30.
Compared to an archaic 15W-40 deisel oil (that no OEM recommends) it's at least 5%. And even 5% is hard for someone to measure for themselves; that's only 2 mpg on a car that gets 40mpg.


Yes, I exaggerated a bit.

The point I was trying to make, as you pointed out, is that the average person isn't going to notice much of a difference. However, as you've pointed out before, just because we don't notice a difference doesn't mean it's not there, nor does it mean it can't be measured.

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
It's interesting that those that pooh-pooh high VI 0W-20 oils have actually never tried one for themselves. Those that do often become big converts, not just for the maximized fuel economy but the noticeably improved engine performance.


Not to mention that a 0w-20 is far more sensible on our coldest days of the year than is any 15w-40.

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Ok and why do some mfgs give only one choice of oil for the US applications, 5W20. In other parts of the world the user can make the choice, only here in the USA we can't. We tow, probably a lot more than in other parts of the world, and drive in extreme heat.


As I've mentioned before, I think there are several reasons for it. CAFE might be a big part of it, but it's not the only thing. Some people don't have enough sense to avoid 20w-50 in a North Dakota winter without blaming the manufacturer, and some quick lubes have no sense either. With respect to towing, you're using an SUV, not a Golf with a travel trailer attached to it. In North America, the norm is to use a large truck or SUV to tow, not even a large car, much less small one.

Our North American manual recommendations have certainly been "dumbed down," but I think the disadvantages are somewhat minimal. So, no, I can't go and run leftover 15w-40 if I had some in my G and still be warranty compliant. But, I can run 5w-30 year round with reasonable confidence, and know it's been done for a lot of years in many vehicles.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Garak



Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
It's interesting that those that pooh-pooh high VI 0W-20 oils have actually never tried one for themselves. Those that do often become big converts, not just for the maximized fuel economy but the noticeably improved engine performance.


Not to mention that a 0w-20 is far more sensible on our coldest days of the year than is any 15w-40.

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Ok and why do some mfgs give only one choice of oil for the US applications, 5W20. In other parts of the world the user can make the choice, only here in the USA we can't. We tow, probably a lot more than in other parts of the world, and drive in extreme heat.


As I've mentioned before, I think there are several reasons for it. CAFE might be a big part of it, but it's not the only thing. Some people don't have enough sense to avoid 20w-50 in a North Dakota winter without blaming the manufacturer, and some quick lubes have no sense either. With respect to towing, you're using an SUV, not a Golf with a travel trailer attached to it. In North America, the norm is to use a large truck or SUV to tow, not even a large car, much less small one.

Our North American manual recommendations have certainly been "dumbed down," but I think the disadvantages are somewhat minimal. So, no, I can't go and run leftover 15w-40 if I had some in my G and still be warranty compliant. But, I can run 5w-30 year round with reasonable confidence, and know it's been done for a lot of years in many vehicles.


I think we agree on some points. Here's where my thinking takes me. There are plenty of people in NA towing with small cars too. Visit some of our boat ramps during boating season and see what these people are towing with, you'd be amazed.

As far as your 20W50 example you have a point. Here's the flip side. Do you think the Germans don't suggest 5W20 for their cars because of the Autobahn? I do. That would be the same as your example only in reverse. LOL

I think the OM should at least give the option of a 30 grade oil for towing or extreme hot weather driving. CAFE is obviously not allowing that.

How about this question for those who think 20 grade is the best oil. Run 6-8 hours a day across the desert in the US, WOT with a 20 grade oil during the summer. Check the oil every fill up. Try it with a 30 grade oil as well. Which oil would you rather use in a vehicle out of warranty calling for a 20 grade oil? Extreme yes, but I'm trying to make a point. There are parts of the world or even certain people in the USA who can easily push an engine to and beyond its limits.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Y_K
I see a lot of empirical evidence with over 300 taxi cabs, limos and other drive for hire operators that the thinner oil is not going to keep your cap-ex for over 350k miles in business. I would love to have 5% in fuel saving with high VI thin oil.. I drive 75-90k miles per year.
When amateurs will learn what cap-ex, op-ex and ROI means? Never.

If you drive 75-90K per year I don't see much need or benefit in a high VI oil. The main benefit of a high VI oil is if a high percentage of an engine's life is spent with the crankcase oil below normal maximum operating temp's.

Every engine has an optimum minimum operational viscosity. That's a viscosity just thick enough to avoid bearing wiping under maximum load. For most engines that's will happen when the viscosity is around 3.5cP. For a typical virgin 5W-20 dino that will occur with a sump oil temp' of about 265F; lowering as the oil shears. For a 5W-30 it will occur at about 275F; again lowering as the oil shears in service but even more quickly.
At the end of a typical OCI the 5W-30 should still hold a viscosity advantage over the 5W-20 but not a lot.

These are very high oil temp's that in all likelyhood will never be seen over the service life of a vehicle, so the safety margin is very large. What can make a difference is vehicle maintenance and level of abuse by the drivers. For example how often does overheating of the engine occur in the fleet? Are any vehicles operated with low oil levels? So in more abusive situations a 30wt oil can offer a slight advantage, but only slight.

Additionally, what's the difference in fuel economy between a 5W-20 and 5W-30 dino in a vehicle that spends virtually all of it's time at operating temp's; I'm sure it's not more than 1%.
My thinking is that is well maintained fleets your still somewhat ahead running a 5W-20.

 

[fdcg27]

And nothing prevents those who subject their vehicles to hard use from using a thirty grade oil.
The warranty thing is a red herring, since it is unlikely that anyone will care about the grade used (within reason), and will only be concerned that the oil has been changed.
Fail to change the oil for 20K or so and the results will be obvious, with no UOA needed.
From a warranty point of view, unless it can be shown that a thirty grade caused damage that a twenty grade wouldn't have, there is no concern.
If a manufacturer specified thicker oils in other markets for the same engine, as many do, they would be in no position to deny a warranty claim.
If an owner really had to retain an attorney, the manufacturer would settle, and would have to cough up legal expenses for the owner as well.

 

[Garak]

You certainly may be right on towing. Remember, I'm a bit skewed simply because of my geographic location. I do a reasonable amount of driving (and used to do huge amounts of driving). Observing a car towing anything here is an extreme rarity, and that was even the case with the big cars, like the old Caprices and CV platform. Here, even little utility trailers are towed with SUVs or larger. Heck, my buddy used a Dodge diesel dually one ton to tow two snowmobiles.

However, though, I think I make a valid point that in North America, we're far more likely to see a big one ton (or half ton, for that matter) towing something than we are in Europe. We're certainly more likely to see a big truck towing nothing at all and being used as a daily driver than we are in Europe. That goes to my fuel price argument, too. I suspect that the average person in Germany wouldn't be caught dead using a V-10 powered one ton as a daily driver.

With respect to 5w-20 in Germany, remember that it was done once upon a time. My old Audi recommended everything from 5w-20 to 20w-50, depending on ambient temperatures, with specific warnings to use a thicker grade in high speed, long duration driving (i.e. the Autobahn). That vehicle was manufactured before the proprietary German specs and before things like M1 0w-40 and GC 0w-30 were available, which provide for decent cold starting ability along with the requisite higher HTHS.

My view on this is as follows. The Germans (Audi in this case) wanted a thick oil for high speed driving and for warmer temperatures, hence the recommendation of 15w-40 for the vehicle across a fairly wide ride of temperatures. They also didn't ignore cold starts, allowing 5w-20 and 5w-30 for certain conditions. Along come grades like 0w-30, 0w-40, and 5w-40, and throw in a few overly optimistic OCIs on conventional API grades in European cars, and then we have the ACEA and proprietary specifications that cover all weather conditions and longer OCIs.

In North America, things are different, as you obviously are aware. Yes, we certainly have Autobahn-like conditions in certain jurisdictions and we can get plenty of heat and plenty of cold. The manufacturers here scrapped the temperature chart (just like the big European ones did) and went with lighter grades.

There's another issue I neglected to mention, but we should also consider. While OCIs in North America are trending upwards, we're still behind Europe in that regard. 20,000 mile manufacturer OCIs exist in Europe, but not here. If I wanted to go 20,000 miles on an OCI, I'd certainly be leaning towards the heavier side of the spectrum (or choose Amsoil) and an oil that's demonstrated long drain capabilities.

I, too, wish that the manufacturers would provide more room for choice in grades. Even up here, they don't. We essentially piggyback on CAFE, even though the manufacturers here could offer other choices.

I know that M1 0w-40 or even a 15w-40 won't hurt my G. I know perfectly well to not use it in -40 C. I guess Nissan/Infiniti doesn't trust me to make that decision, though.