No 0w20 in Australia and this is why

[Oldwolf]

I would love to be confident that 0W20 will be okay in my 2005 Prius Gen 2 Toyota 1NZ-XFE engine. And yes, I know in Canada it is approved for it! My 2012 1NZ-XFE is speced for 0W20 and 10k oci's, so, it seems that obviously given the Canadian precedent and my 2012 Prius precedent, that mt 2005 Prius would just love 0W-20!

But, until Toyota of USA approves 0W20 for my Gen 2, my irrational paranoia forces me to stay with my 50/50 mix of Mobil 1 0W20 and 0W40.

 

[Garak]

And this is where we do have problems with some high output motors in North America - too heavy of a grade for the application. Quarter mile runs are relatively common here among tuners, "boy racers," and the like. They take a reasonably high output car, stock or mildly tuned, old or new, and go to the track. The 20w-50 they put in the crankcase (because it's a performance application, of course) is stone cold, then they do a quarter mile rip, wait and hour, and do another. Then, down the road, they wonder why they have problems.

I'd rather have a too thick for spec 20w-50 in a car on a long highway cruise than I would for a short, fast run.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Oldwolf

But, until Toyota of USA approves 0W20 for my Gen 2, my irrational paranoia forces me to stay with my 50/50 mix of Mobil 1 0W20 and 0W40.

You could try contacting Toyota USA and mention (even provide them with the Toyota Canada Oil Recommendation Chart) and see if they concur. Since your car's well out of warranty there's a good chance that you'll get a favourable recommendation.

For example, BMW Canada is on record recommending any "name brand 5W-30" can be used instead of the BMW approved oils for moderate OCIs of 5K-7K once the vehicle is out of warranty.

If Toyota USA still doesn't give you the green light on running their 0W-20 why not substitute the Toyota 0W-20 for the M1 0W-20 in your blend. It's still made by Mobil.
This will give your a somewhat lighter 0W-30 at operating temp's but significantly lighter oil on start-up due to it's 200 VI.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Garak
And this is where we do have problems with some high output motors in North America - too heavy of a grade for the application. Quarter mile runs are relatively common here among tuners, "boy racers," and the like. They take a reasonably high output car, stock or mildly tuned, old or new, and go to the track. The 20w-50 they put in the crankcase (because it's a performance application, of course) is stone cold, then they do a quarter mile rip, wait and hour, and do another. Then, down the road, they wonder why they have problems.

I'd rather have a too thick for spec 20w-50 in a car on a long highway cruise than I would for a short, fast run.

I didn't mention it but that is the real problem of running a massively heavy oil in a stone cold engine. With high rev's, the risk of cavitation damage is very real. I've seen more engines broken at the track running a heavy oil on a cold day than someone running too light an oil on a hot day.

 

[chiks]

Should I have thicker blood or thinner blood?

Therein lies the answer.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
I didn't mention it but that is the real problem of running a massively heavy oil in a stone cold engine. With high rev's,

Anyone that would rev a cold engine is an idiot anyway.
For reasons are not only to do with oil.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
I've come to the conclusion that viscosity doesn't matter.

How can it if a GM engine "designed" for 10w30 is fitted to an Australian car and run on 20w50 for 200k miles with no trouble?


Oh boy are you in for it. No common sense allowed!
You need re education therapy along with a trip through the halls of smoke and mirrors after you leave the woodshed. LOL

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
I didn't mention it but that is the real problem of running a massively heavy oil in a stone cold engine. With high rev's,

Anyone that would rev a cold engine is an idiot anyway.
For reasons are not only to do with oil.

And there in lies the route of the problem.
Heavier oil does provide additional protection if high oil temp's occur. But until those high temp's occur (if they ever do) the thicker oil is just a liability.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: chiks
Should I have thicker blood or thinner blood?

Therein lies the answer.


Pray tell where in the body hydrodynamic lubrication is at play ?

 

[Trav]

Not really a liability, it takes the engine a while to get the clearances taken up from cold e.g piston to bore, valve lash etc.
Having a oil, that can handle revs cold is useless as the engine is not ready to run properly anyway.
I agree in sub zero weather a 0w20/5w20 has nice properties but not where i live or conditions i operate under.

In my conditions 0w30, 5w30, 0w40, 10w60 is fine.
The 10w60 is for one engine only.

5w20 was perfect for my Expedition. Winter use, short runs.
The oil rarely got up to temp.
Summer use with a 29ft Chaparral boat on the back no way, then 0w40.

 

[CATERHAM]

Of course regardless of the oil in the sump one should ideally wait until the coolant is up to temp' and the oil up to at least 70C even with 20wt oil before using maximum rev's. But not everyone has the patience (particularly in sub-freezing contitions) to wait that long and there are always driving situations where a stab of WOT takes place before you know it. When that happens I'd much rather have a high VI 0W-20 in the sump than a low VI dino 40wt or heaven forbid a 50wt.

I don't have a problem in erring on the side of caution in extreme use situations. Running an oil 0.2-0.5cP (in HTHSV terms) over spec' is fine but if you're going to go much higher than that make sure your oil pump isn't in by-pass at maximum rev's or your efforts will be counter-productive.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
CATERHAM - Correct, some of the Porsche Museum cars for instance use a 20W-50 mineral lubricant. The engine is warmed to 80C before any load or revs are applied. This is fairly typical of course

I'll follow it up again at the Goodwood Revival in a couple of weeks

Some old Engineering practices remain alive in a changing World - they do so beacuse they are practical, wise and they work!

 

[chiks]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Garak
And this is where we do have problems with some high output motors in North America - too heavy of a grade for the application. Quarter mile runs are relatively common here among tuners, "boy racers," and the like. They take a reasonably high output car, stock or mildly tuned, old or new, and go to the track. The 20w-50 they put in the crankcase (because it's a performance application, of course) is stone cold, then they do a quarter mile rip, wait and hour, and do another. Then, down the road, they wonder why they have problems.

I'd rather have a too thick for spec 20w-50 in a car on a long highway cruise than I would for a short, fast run.

I didn't mention it but that is the real problem of running a massively heavy oil in a stone cold engine. With high rev's, the risk of cavitation damage is very real. I've seen more engines broken at the track running a heavy oil on a cold day than someone running too light an oil on a hot day.


My 2003 car threw a CEL when I hit 6000 rpm with only 90 seconds of starting it up in 40F. The new ecu are pretty smart.

Btw, it used 5w-20 oil.

 

[supercity]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

That is the heart of the question.
Firstly, the oil's viscosity does limit the volume of oil flowing through an engine. Yes the pressure from the oil pump is constant (increasing with rpms), but for a given rpm the oil flow through an engine will increase as the oil's viscosity drops.


Does it?

If an oil pump is a positive displacement pump, it is pumping a set volume of fluid per rotation. It can't pump more or less. It will pump the same volume regardless of pressure and therefore viscosity. Oil pressure is just a result of having to pump the same volume of fluid of different viscosities.

 

[fdcg27]

Why does a nonsense thread like this run for as long as it does, while a thread that is potentially useful to some members, like my UOA of Nextgen Maxlife 10W-40 from my old BMW gets only maybe a hundred views and a few polite responses?
Thick versus thin is a matter of personal preference and no more than that.
Both thicker and thinner oils have been proven by a variety of users in the same engines.
Many posters also seem to forget that viscosity is a creature of temperature, so that thin oils are actually thicker than thick oils when the former are at a lower ambient temperature than the latter.
Anyway, if we know that either thick or thin will work well in protecting engines from wear, what is this thread about?
This whole debate has been silly from the first thread concerning it.
Select what you want, use it, and live with the consequences.

 

[tribocessive]

what is the real reason that there is no 0W20 in australia? i dunno; i do know that bitog gives us a chance to fixate on motor oil and it is all good; my wish list includes a 2014 X1 diesel to north america with nextgen 5W20 far, and a hilux diesel with any australian oil; also, i think it is normal to try to be precise about motor oil.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: supercity
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

That is the heart of the question.
Firstly, the oil's viscosity does limit the volume of oil flowing through an engine. Yes the pressure from the oil pump is constant (increasing with rpms), but for a given rpm the oil flow through an engine will increase as the oil's viscosity drops.


Does it?

If an oil pump is a positive displacement pump, it is pumping a set volume of fluid per rotation. It can't pump more or less. It will pump the same volume regardless of pressure and therefore viscosity. Oil pressure is just a result of having to pump the same volume of fluid of different viscosities.

You're partially right but the resulting rate of oil flow through an engine is dependant on the oil's viscosity for a given oil pump pressure. Drop the oil's viscosity and more gal/min of oil will cycle through an engine for a given oil pump pressure.
A 0W-20 will allow about a gal/min of more oil to flow throw an engine than a 20W-50. Check out the following article on the subject courtesy of Jeff_in_VaBch:

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_0911_small_block_chevy_oil_pumps/viewall.html

 

[Phishin]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

You're partially right but the resulting rate of oil flow through an engine is dependant on the oil's viscosity for a given oil pump pressure.


But CATERHAM,

This 100% correct, but this isn't even applicable to a real life engine experience, is it? What I mean is, oil pump pressure INCREASES if you put thicker oil in it because the oil pump IS fixed volume.

Of course a thinner oil will flow more volume than a thicker oil AT A GIVEN OIL PRESSURE. But as you put thicker oil in, your oil pressure increases, and the result is the same oil flow.

 

[CATERHAM]

No, thicker oil does not increase the oil pressure provided by your oil pump but it will increase the oil pressure reading on your OP gauge and that's two different things.
An oil pressure gauge measures back pressure or the resistance to oil flow through an engine. Therefore thicker oil is reflected in higher oil back pressure and reduced oil flow through an engine.
That's why an OP gauge is also a viscosity meter or viscometer.
The higher the reading the thicker the oil.

 

[tribocessive]

i used to really like the power curve on my old 2005 tacoma 2TRFE 4cyl 5spd w/VVT; toyota said that their VVT system works by adjusting the oil pressure to influence valve timing; if i have this right, it would make it ridiculous to use thick motor oil.