Need "Expert" Advice or Opinion ACEA Dillema

[BritGerCarLuvr]

Hello Again.
Finally retired the old X-Type (Ford Mondeo) in favor of another real Jaguar. Just bought 2012 XF Portfolio. 10K miles. Ok enough background.
On with my concern. For the record, I run Total Quartz Energy 9000 0W30 in ALL my vehicles. Years of astonishing UOA's have proven, beyond any doubt that's the way to go for ME. I even run that A3/B3/B4 High HT/HS 0W30 in my Supercharged Jaguar which is spec'ed for A1/B1 A5/B5 Low HT/HS 5W30.
Here is where I hesitate. This new XF 5.0L calls for 5W20 ONLY. The manual does not give any viscosity variations at all. It strictly says 5W20 ONLY "or else engine damage may occur... blah...blah...blah..." Obviously low HT/HS, designed for saving the cats and fuel economy and, in my opinion, not the greatest oil film in a high RPM, high heat, TRACK type situation. I drive my cars hard, but I try to maintain the heck out of them. Religious oil and filter changes every 5000 miles. NO exceptions.
I would LOVE to run the Total Quartz Energy 9000 0W30 high HT/HS A3/B3/B4 229.5 VW 502.00 etc... in my new Jaguar XF. I personally don't think it will damage anything, and I am pretty darn sure the UOA's will show less wear. Does ANYONE know if there is a mechanical or an engineering reason, difference or whatever, why Jaguar says 5W20 ONLY. Why wouldn't a 30 weight (hot) higher film strength fully synthetic oil do? (I don't care about mileage, just engine wear and longevity)... I am not trying to start an oil brand debate either. I know there are plenty of other adequate oils out there... many meeting the same specs.
I simply would love to know if 0W30 can safely be used in a 5W20 spec'ed ONLY (supposedly)5.0L engine. In other words, going from a 20 weight, to a 30 weight. The first number doesn't matter to me as I prefer the 0 weight anyways.
I wish to thank everyone for their input.

 

[229]

Very small orifice for VCT system. Designed for certain pressures and flow with spec'd viscosity. This changes with thicker oil.

 

[Clevy]

Is this the ford coyote 5.0.
If yes then honestly this engine when equipped with track key specifies the use of 5w-50 and the only real changes in the engines is tuning,the engines internals are the same.
Yes the dohc 4v 5.0 has variable cam timing and yes it's hydraulic however if its not as sensible as you might think.
I know warranty requires 5w-20 however if you use the 0w-30 that you want to use I am certain there won't be any issues with the cam phaser operation and there won't be engine damage.
If you can do your own oil changes then by all means I'd use the oil you want to use. If you have to take it in to the shop for any reason then get some 5w-20 in there before you take it in.
Honestly the 5.0 isn't that picky. I've used everything in my mod motors from a 20 grade to a 50 grade. It seemed to like the 40 grades the best and were the quietest running with 40 grades. I never noticed any increase in fuel consumption nor did I notice any difference in how it revs.
Do what you feel is best,it's your car.
I can tell you that there doesn't seem to be any real issues with the 5.0 engine other than cylinder 8 in some engines,tuned engines primarily,seem do kill that cylinder. Detonation seems to be the problem.
And the ford auto tranny's are kinda junk in some cars but I don't know if the jag has the ford Chinese trannies or not.
How well does that engine perform in that car. How much does it weigh,etc.

 

[Swissdieselfan]

I would just look the car and exact engine type up in the Castrol or Mobil oil finder guide in the UK (.co.uk etc). That will show if the EU folks are using the same oil, which they might be.
Once you figure out the non CAFE related oil requirements, it's worth looking at a Jag forum for more info.
I've never heard that using 0/30 insted of an 0 or 5/20 could cause a problem for any engine, although I think the oil you are using was made in France and refined in Bulgaria.
If you have an extended power train warranty I would check to see what it says about lubricants.

 

[slo town]

OP, I see you have a Texas address. Is it hot there? Is the car garaged? Do you drive the car easy until it's fully warmed up? ....

You get my point. IMO, I think you'd be okay to use the Total oil if you answer "yes" to these and similar type questions.

Scott

 

[BritGerCarLuvr]

Just came back from the dealer. This is what I was told.
They claim that this is NOT the Ford engine, but a totally British 5.0L engine. They also claim it MUST use the specified 5W20 Castrol oil. They also claim that the "Jaguar" brand, Professional OE 5W20 they put in these vars has a special "die" in it. If I were to have ANY type of engine problem, the first thing they do is an UOA, if it isn't the "specified oil" the new car warranty is VOID.

Discovery #2. I read up on the specs last night. I looked up Castrol, Mobil 1, Amsoil and Penzoil Ultra. First of all Penzoil doesnt even meet the spec. Castrol and Mobil 1 both do inasfar as the A1/B1 is concerned. I could not understand how they can stick A1/B1 only in a high performance engine when A5/B5 is the high performace "spec" for 5W20. Well, here is the answer:

Off the shelf, the best Castrol Edge Titanium 5W20 and Mobil 1 Extended Performance 5W20 both meet the A1/B1, but NOT A5/B5. The oil the dealer (Jaguar) sells, which is what they put in the engines is Castrol Professional OE 5W20 and to my surprise it DOES meet A1/B1, A5/B5 and all the other stuff... not available in stores, but the dealer will be happy to sell you each quart for $ 12.50 (around there). Well I feel better in one aspect, it meets the "high performance" ACEA A5/B5... that helps some.

I performed a service with the "dealer" oil for now... now I have 5000 miles to make up my mind.... and yes, I do warm it up and drive "easy" until the engine reaches operating temperature.

Looking for more opinions and for those of you who have replied, thank you SO much for your input.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: BritGerCarLuvr
They also claim it MUST use the specified 5W20 Castrol oil. They also claim that the "Jaguar" brand, Professional OE 5W20 they put in these vars has a special "die" in it. If I were to have ANY type of engine problem, the first thing they do is an UOA, if it isn't the "specified oil" the new car warranty is VOID.

Are they crazy? Are they crazy enough to put that in writing?

Is there an oil specification in the manual? You mention it calls for a 5w-20, of course, but what specifically does it say about Jaguar specifications? API specifications? ACEA specifications?

Digging on a couple websites, I'd be willing to call baloney to the dealer. The Amsoil site says your vehicle calls for a 5w-20 meeting Ford specification WSS-M2C925-A, of which there are many, many choices. The Mobil USA site kicks out everything from 5w-20 Super conventional to M1 EP 5w-20 and M1 AFE 0w-20 as appropriate for your specific vehicle.

Methinks the dealer simply wants to sell some of their oil at a rather high markup. As has been beaten to death here, a manufacturer cannot void your warranty because you used the wrong oil. A claim can be denied if improper maintenance (including the "wrong" oil) actually caused the failure. If you use 20w-50 in the thing and your differential packs it in, those are unrelated matters. Beyond that, are they giving you the oil for free? If they only want you to use the dealer oil and say no other oil is acceptable, that's pretty much where they're at.

Or, and this is most likely, they're strong arming you and the thing simply needs a very ordinary 5w-20.

 

[bigjl]

I would advise only using the correct specification of oil for your XF.

I believe there is a Motul Specific product that can be used, which I think is this one http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/motul/Motul-Specific-925B-5W20.pdf

As this engine has been developed with using low HTHS 5w20 Full Synth oil to Acea A5/B5 I assume then that is what I would use.

Not sure why you would want to attempt to out think the Jaguar engineers on this.

But good luck with it if you do.

I would suspect you will not only have a slight reduction in economy and possibly a reduction in engine performance.

I doubt it will affect anything in the exhaust.

 

[bigjl]

Could you explain what your issue is with the oil specs needed?

You don't think they are being picky with oil specifications due to wanting to avoid owners putting in 5w20 dino/conventional?

This engine is also used in the European market so it is highly likely that it has always been part of the plan to use top quality full synth.

Ford dealers in the UK also stock the Castrol Magnatec Professional 5w20 as it is used in the new 1.0 Ecoboost engine, but it is not the easiest oil to find.

But then why would it be, the only two engines that call for it are in vehicles that are brand new or very new to the market so are likely to still be main dealer serviced.

And the above post saying you should get the oil for free as it is a very specific specification!

Did I read the correctly?

If I did I have never heard something like that before.


I did a quick check of the UK Mobil site, I don't think we get the NA 5.0 V8 here but the superchRged V8 has no oil listed.

But Motul does advise the Motul Specific I mentioned before, 925B.

I personally don't think a European oil specification like the Ford 925 ones (A1/B1, A5/B5 low HTHS) are going to be very common in the US.

 

[Coprolite]

If it MUST use the specified oil, they MUST provide it for free, no? Sounds like scare tactics to me.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: bigjl
You don't think they are being picky with oil specifications due to wanting to avoid owners putting in 5w20 dino/conventional?


My issue is that there has been absolutely no solid information provided as to what this vehicle needs, aside from 5w-20. The original poster has spoken of the various oils he's tried in the past in other vehicles. He's spoken of various ACEA specifications. He's mentioned VW 502.00, high HTHS, low HTHS, and so forth. Yet, the only thing that he's mentioned that the manual calls for is 5w-20.

What 5w-20? SM/GF-4? SN/GF-5? ACEA specifications? Jaguar specifications? Dealer only oil? BritGerCarLuvr is obviously concerned about warranty. However, we don't have any quotes or scans from the manual. We're told 5w-20, with no mention of API/ILSAC, ACEA, or proprietary specifications. Note that he's in North America, and is concerned with North American warranty, so we should all be interested in what his North American manual states.

So, what they use in the UK or the Continent in a Jaguar or an Ecoboost isn't exactly relevant unless the specification is identical on our side of the Atlantic. The Amsoil site is extremely reliable with respect to specifications and capacities. It calls for a 5w-20 with Ford WSS-M2C925-A. The Mobil site calls for any generic 5w-20, from their conventional to their top end M1 EP.

There may be a new Jaguar spec. I'm skeptical, though. Jaguar has for years piggybacked on Ford's oil specifications and viscosity. Now that the relationship is over, we're to believe that Jaguar has decided to keep the 5w-20, yet come up with a special, secret specification that only one variety of Castrol meets it?

As for free oil, in the United States, the rules are a bit different. Automakers are certainly entitled to call for oil specifications and standards. They are not, however, entitled to call for a specific brand or specific part to be used, without providing that for free. They are entitled to say you must use a 5w-20 meeting Ford specification WSS-M2C925-A, if that's the case. But, they cannot say you can only use Castrol Professional OE 5w-20.

All any of us are doing here is making shots in the dark. You and the OP are concerned and convinced that the Jaguar USA is calling for some pixie dust 5w-20 that can only be bought at Jaguar dealers. I am convinced that Jaguar is hanging on to the legacy Ford specifications and calling for a very generic 5w-20. You guys have a blowhard, self-serving dealer on your side. I have self-serving oil companies on my side.

Unless we know EXACTLY what the manual says, we're spitting in the wind here. In case anyone needs reminding, when asking for an oil recommendation, people who may provide advice need to know the following:

"2. What your owner's manual says -- not just viscosity, but certifications (look for acronyms like API SM, ILSAC GF-4, etc.) and change intervals as well"

Contrary to that recommendation, we just have viscosity. We don't have certifications.

 

[bigjl]

Originally Posted By: Coprolite
If it MUST use the specified oil, they MUST provide it for free, no? Sounds like scare tactics to me.


Are you being serious?

Your comment is the same as I have read on Bitog before and makes no rational sense.

 

[bigjl]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: bigjl
You don't think they are being picky with oil specifications due to wanting to avoid owners putting in 5w20 dino/conventional?


My issue is that there has been absolutely no solid information provided as to what this vehicle needs, aside from 5w-20. The original poster has spoken of the various oils he's tried in the past in other vehicles. He's spoken of various ACEA specifications. He's mentioned VW 502.00, high HTHS, low HTHS, and so forth. Yet, the only thing that he's mentioned that the manual calls for is 5w-20.

What 5w-20? SM/GF-4? SN/GF-5? ACEA specifications? Jaguar specifications? Dealer only oil? BritGerCarLuvr is obviously concerned about warranty. However, we don't have any quotes or scans from the manual. We're told 5w-20, with no mention of API/ILSAC, ACEA, or proprietary specifications. Note that he's in North America, and is concerned with North American warranty, so we should all be interested in what his North American manual states.

So, what they use in the UK or the Continent in a Jaguar or an Ecoboost isn't exactly relevant unless the specification is identical on our side of the Atlantic. The Amsoil site is extremely reliable with respect to specifications and capacities. It calls for a 5w-20 with Ford WSS-M2C925-A. The Mobil site calls for any generic 5w-20, from their conventional to their top end M1 EP.

There may be a new Jaguar spec. I'm skeptical, though. Jaguar has for years piggybacked on Ford's oil specifications and viscosity. Now that the relationship is over, we're to believe that Jaguar has decided to keep the 5w-20, yet come up with a special, secret specification that only one variety of Castrol meets it?

As for free oil, in the United States, the rules are a bit different. Automakers are certainly entitled to call for oil specifications and standards. They are not, however, entitled to call for a specific brand or specific part to be used, without providing that for free. They are entitled to say you must use a 5w-20 meeting Ford specification WSS-M2C925-A, if that's the case. But, they cannot say you can only use Castrol Professional OE 5w-20.

All any of us are doing here is making shots in the dark. You and the OP are concerned and convinced that the Jaguar USA is calling for some pixie dust 5w-20 that can only be bought at Jaguar dealers. I am convinced that Jaguar is hanging on to the legacy Ford specifications and calling for a very generic 5w-20. You guys have a blowhard, self-serving dealer on your side. I have self-serving oil companies on my side.

Unless we know EXACTLY what the manual says, we're spitting in the wind here. In case anyone needs reminding, when asking for an oil recommendation, people who may provide advice need to know the following:

"2. What your owner's manual says -- not just viscosity, but certifications (look for acronyms like API SM, ILSAC GF-4, etc.) and change intervals as well"

Contrary to that recommendation, we just have viscosity. We don't have certifications.


Yawn.....

Do you read other people's posts or just make things up?

The engine is made and was engineered in the UK which means that the opinion of the people who made it will not be in the US.

In the UK I have only seen two oils specified for for the Jaguar/Land Rover 5.0 V8 engines.

That is Motul Specific 925 B which is a 5w20 A5/B5 low HTHS (2.6) oil.

The other is the Castrol Magnatec Professional 5w20 which is apparently the one that is dyed a different colour to the norm, I say apparently as it is as rare as hens teeth and only a small number of cars use it, they are all new or nearly new models so still under manufacturers warranty, so there is little point in stocking the oil as most will be getting dealer serviced, under EU regs you can use any VAT registered Garage and still have your warranty intact, but in practice only people who are tight or stupid do so as yes your warranty is intact, but you affect your vehicle residuals unless you are going to keep the vehicle for many years.

I would listen to what the US Mobil site says when they start building the engine.

But they don't, Jaguar Land Rover does. And unless I am very much mistaken they build it in the UK. The engine is not changed for the US, though the V8 is only supercharged over here, not sure if they have an NA or supercharged version for the US market.

I think you just think the only opinion that is correct is a US or Canadian opinion.

That is a sad state of affairs really isn't it.

Remember none of us but the OP has read the owners manual.

A dealer will recommend what he has on the shelf.

But the specs required are very specific, low HTHS, full synth, 5w20 A5/B5.

A rare spec in Europe so not exactly common in the US I would have thought.

My Volvo handbook recommends Castrol but doesn't specify it over all others, recent Ford handbooks have a little sheet in them with a recommendation to use Castrol products.

The only reason I can see Jag would say only use Castrol was due to lack of supply of the very specific oil needed for this engine and wanting to prevent "knowledgable" owners putting 5w20 Dino in there be a use they think it is the same.

If that means Jaguar have to provide the oil for free it also goes a long way to explain why the US Economy tanked and took the rest of the world with it.

That is the kind of regulation that only an imbecile would introduce.

Funny how Europe was being slagged off for using "thick" oils and now the issue is using "thin" oils.

Maybe MMO and some Kreen would be good enough, after all what does Johnny foreigner know.

Just to add the spec in the UK is 925 B which is backwards compatible with 925 A but not the same.

I shall add again the only oils I have found that meet the specs given are Castrol and Motul Specific 925B, both fine oils I have no doubt.

So what is the issue?

Price or lack of availability?

If you buy a car that is a little bit better than the average car and not cheap why baulk at the price and availability of the quality lubricants that will keep it healthy and running well for many years.

 

[tudorart]

Two more oils from Europe...Fuchs is also present in the US or Canada if not mistaken.
Q8 Formula Exclusive Eco 5W-20 Ford M2C 948-B (backwards compatible with M2C 925-B) A1/B1
Fuchs TITAN SUPERSYN F ECO B 5W-20 FORD M2C948-B, FORD M2C925-B, ACEA A1/B1

 

[LotI]

Originally Posted By: 229
Very small orifice for VCT system. Designed for certain pressures and flow with spec'd viscosity. This changes with thicker oil.

According to This , this engine uses a mechanical phaser system.

According to Wikipedia, the engine is made is South Wales

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: bigjl
The engine is made and was engineered in the UK which means that the opinion of the people who made it will not be in the US.

Enough of this nonsense. I looked up the manual online. For the English North American manual, P. 169 under Technical Specifications, for both the NA and SC versions of the 5.0, here is the wording verbatim:

Quote:
Engine Oil | SAE 5W-20 meeting Jaguar
specification WSS M2C925-A only.


Where does it say that he must use oil from the dealer at $12.50 a quart? He can use M1 5w-20, which is WSS M2C925-A for half the price. I was going to check the Castrol site, but the data sheets are currently down, so I cannot check if either of the retail Syntec versions meet the specification.

And read what the OP stated. He didn't say the dealer recommended what was on his shelf. The dealer said he MUST use what's on his shelf or void his warranty. Whether you believe it, approve of it, or like it, that is prohibited in the USA. It doesn't require your faith, belief, or ascent. Manufacturers of any product are not allowed to require only OEM (or one brand) of service parts or consumables to maintain warranty. They can set standards, but that's it. Otherwise, the theory goes, it's a license to gouge. Considering the dealer wants $12.50 a quart for their oil that meets the same specifications of M1 at half the price, I can see why.

No where, once, did I say that only North American opinions count. And this isn't a matter of opinion. This is a matter of fact:

The manual calls for a 5w-20 oil meeting WSS M2C925-A. M1 5w-20 is a 5w-20 oil meeting WSS M2C925-A. Therefore, M1 5w-20 is an acceptable lube and the Castrol Professional OE 5w-20 is not the sole acceptable lube. Further to that, the dealer is mistaken or lying in his oil recommendation/threat.

I'm sure the Motul would be more expensive than the Castrol. Heck, the OP's dealer in the States is selling the Castrol at a price that would make a Canadian retailer blush. This isn't about buying cheap conventional and tossing it in. But, it'll be a frosty Friday before I would spend double the price for Product A when Product B meets the same specifications at half the price (and much better availability).

Originally Posted By: bigjl
The only reason I can see Jag would say only use Castrol was due to lack of supply of the very specific oil needed for this engine and wanting to prevent "knowledgable" owners putting 5w20 Dino in there be a use they think it is the same.

They have a specification. That's sufficient. Lack of supply is a red herring. M1 5w-20 is quite possibly the most common brand and grade of synthetic oil on the shelf in North America (with M1 5w-30 being the only possible rival).

I called shenanigans on the dealer's advice and provided proof.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Garak

Enough of this nonsense. I looked up the manual online. For the English North American manual, P. 169 under Technical Specifications, for both the NA and SC versions of the 5.0, here is the wording verbatim:

Quote:
Engine Oil | SAE 5W-20 meeting Jaguar
specification WSS M2C925-A only.


Where does it say that he must use oil from the dealer at $12.50 a quart? He can use M1 5w-20, which is WSS M2C925-A for half the price. I was going to check the Castrol site, but the data sheets are currently down, so I cannot check if either of the retail Syntec versions meet the specification.


Exactly. Which is normally how these things go. The manufacturer requires you to use an oil that meets a given spec (in this case, M2C925-A) to retain your warranty. BMW does it with LL-01, LL-04...etc, Mercedes does it, Porsche does it....etc. They don't require you to use a specific BRAND of oil, they require you to use an oil that meets a spec that they provide, or has been tested and approved for the application (depending on the testing protocol). This is a reasonable request by the manufacturer, as it guarantees a particular level of performance.

It sounds like the dealership doesn't quite understand the difference between using an approved lubricant and using a specific lubricant.

 

[Coprolite]

bigjl, do I need to elaborate on Garak's and Overkill's posts? Why do you contend that my comment makes no rational sense?


Originally Posted By: bigjl
Originally Posted By: Coprolite
If it MUST use the specified oil, they MUST provide it for free, no? Sounds like scare tactics to me.


Are you being serious?

Your comment is the same as I have read on Bitog before and makes no rational sense.

 

[partspro]

What I find interesting is that this engine uses purely mechanical cam phasers. Regardless, I would follow the 5w-20 without loosing a moments sleep. I have seen engines that use hydraulic timing belt/chain tensioners be destroyed by using the incorrect weight oil. I have also seen the 'go faster' import tuner 'dudes' come in with check engine codes because cam phasers did not work with the oil that their 'buddy/mechanic' told them was the best stuff since sliced bread'

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Coprolite
Why do you contend that my comment makes no rational sense?

And people have to realize why this rule is in place. And it's not just about cars. I have an HP printer. HP cannot require me to use HP paper and HP toner. In the printer world, the OEM cartridges often perform better and longer to warrant the higher price.

In the OP's situation, the dealer's oil is significantly overpriced, even by Canadian standards. Why not charge $30 a quart? Maybe $40 or $50 a quart? After all, they'll void your warranty if you don't use it.