Other than their cheap models Acura does not compete with MB, or Porsche.
Is this whats wrong with BMW?
- Thread starter edwardh1
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Think about it, a $40k Japanese car had HID as standard and $80k German car had it as extra cost option. Isn't it ridiculous marketing ? Trying to nickel and dime customers !
You don't have to think about it at all. Both brands are aimed at totally different markets and income levels.
It's the same reason why Acura dealers charge more for the exact same services as Honda dealers.
This is also the reason why we now have Lexus, which was brought to the American market, by Toyota.
This is also why we now have Infiniti, brought to the American market, by Nissan.
We almost had Amati, bring brought to us by mazda, but those cars never happened. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amati_Cars
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Think about it, a $40k Japanese car had HID as standard and $80k German car had it as extra cost option. Isn't it ridiculous marketing ? Trying to nickel and dime customers !
You don't have to think about it at all. Both brands are aimed at totally different markets and income levels.
It's the same reason why Acura dealers charge more for the exact same services as Honda dealers.
This is also the reason why we now have Lexus, which was brought to the American market, by Toyota.
This is also why we now have Infiniti, brought to the American market, by Nissan.
We almost had Amati, bring brought to us by mazda, but those cars never happened. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amati_Cars
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Other than their cheap models Acura does not compete with MB, or Porsche.
SUV's for Acura do somewhat.
Other than their cheap models Acura does not compete with MB, or Porsche.
SUV's for Acura do somewhat.
Originally Posted By: Vikas
When you buy 80K+ MB as your new vehicle, you want to brag about how much *more* you paid for your vehicle than your colleague. Those are not "value conscious" customers! People who purchase new bare bones high end MB cars are the "wrong" customers.
To a certain extent it's somewhat up to the dealers as they're the ones who order the cars for their lot and most people just buy whatever is on the lot. On the E350's, most of them are basically bare bones models with a standard package, only saw one or two really bare bones one that didn't even have the standard premium package. On the other hand, most of them don't get loaded up with options like the pano roof, parktronic, distronic etc., the more loaded ones would be E550's or AMG models and you don't see too many of those around, so even with MB, base models are popular, after all most are just impressed by the MB Star, not the options that the car has. It's actually best to find a used one with as many options as possible as it doesn't seem to affect the sale price, but the original list price can be over 10k more than a base model.
When you buy 80K+ MB as your new vehicle, you want to brag about how much *more* you paid for your vehicle than your colleague. Those are not "value conscious" customers! People who purchase new bare bones high end MB cars are the "wrong" customers.
To a certain extent it's somewhat up to the dealers as they're the ones who order the cars for their lot and most people just buy whatever is on the lot. On the E350's, most of them are basically bare bones models with a standard package, only saw one or two really bare bones one that didn't even have the standard premium package. On the other hand, most of them don't get loaded up with options like the pano roof, parktronic, distronic etc., the more loaded ones would be E550's or AMG models and you don't see too many of those around, so even with MB, base models are popular, after all most are just impressed by the MB Star, not the options that the car has. It's actually best to find a used one with as many options as possible as it doesn't seem to affect the sale price, but the original list price can be over 10k more than a base model.
It's cheaper to foot the bill on the customer than it is to happily pay the fine for not meeting CAFE to the EPA - in which BMW and Mercedes gladly did for a while(BMW does have a pretty bad CAFE score I would think thanks to Rolls-Royce and their past ownership of Land Rover). Toyota and Subaru are having oil consumption issues with 0W-20 oil, and the Germans are pushing start-stop like crazy - Honda and Ford just jumped on that bandwagon as well.
Who knows how well the new turbo 3/4 push will be?
Who knows how well the new turbo 3/4 push will be?
BMW been downhill ever since the E36.
The above car left the factory with a plastic water pump impeller.
Before the E36, We had the E30 (my personal favorite.)
Mine looked like this, more or less, I had an M-Technic package:
The E30 was a different planet than today's BMWs.
The E46 was alright...
The 7 series is back to being an un-lowed POS again, compared to it's prime, which was the generation just before this one, that looked like a Honda Accord at first glance.
Previous BMW 7:
Honda Accord:
.
The above car left the factory with a plastic water pump impeller.
Before the E36, We had the E30 (my personal favorite.)
Mine looked like this, more or less, I had an M-Technic package:
The E30 was a different planet than today's BMWs.
The E46 was alright...
The 7 series is back to being an un-lowed POS again, compared to it's prime, which was the generation just before this one, that looked like a Honda Accord at first glance.
Previous BMW 7:
Honda Accord:
.
Originally Posted By: InfmousCornholio
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Think about it, a $40k Japanese car had HID as standard and $80k German car had it as extra cost option. Isn't it ridiculous marketing ? Trying to nickel and dime customers !
You don't have to think about it at all. Both brands are aimed at totally different markets and income levels.
It's the same reason why Acura dealers charge more for the exact same services as Honda dealers.
This is also the reason why we now have Lexus, which was brought to the American market, by Toyota.
This is also why we now have Infiniti, brought to the American market, by Nissan.
We almost had Amati, bring brought to us by mazda, but those cars never happened. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amati_Cars
It's interesting how different markets have different preference when car shopping. It seems Americans (and Canadians) do not value tradition in the same sense as Europeans do. Maybe that's the reason why Lexus and Infinity are so successful there, and only marginal players in Europe. It looks that Russians are similar to Americans in that way as only upper Japanese brands that can be seen over here are driven by Russian tourists.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Think about it, a $40k Japanese car had HID as standard and $80k German car had it as extra cost option. Isn't it ridiculous marketing ? Trying to nickel and dime customers !
You don't have to think about it at all. Both brands are aimed at totally different markets and income levels.
It's the same reason why Acura dealers charge more for the exact same services as Honda dealers.
This is also the reason why we now have Lexus, which was brought to the American market, by Toyota.
This is also why we now have Infiniti, brought to the American market, by Nissan.
We almost had Amati, bring brought to us by mazda, but those cars never happened. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amati_Cars
It's interesting how different markets have different preference when car shopping. It seems Americans (and Canadians) do not value tradition in the same sense as Europeans do. Maybe that's the reason why Lexus and Infinity are so successful there, and only marginal players in Europe. It looks that Russians are similar to Americans in that way as only upper Japanese brands that can be seen over here are driven by Russian tourists.
Originally Posted By: chrisri
It's interesting how different markets have different preference when car shopping. It seems Americans (and Canadians) do not value tradition in the same sense as Europeans do. Maybe that's the reason why Lexus and Infinity are so successful there, and only marginal players in Europe.
Pricing influences it to some degree. Over here, Lexus and Infiniti are cheaper than MB and BMW. In Europe, it's the other way around.
It's interesting how different markets have different preference when car shopping. It seems Americans (and Canadians) do not value tradition in the same sense as Europeans do. Maybe that's the reason why Lexus and Infinity are so successful there, and only marginal players in Europe.
Pricing influences it to some degree. Over here, Lexus and Infiniti are cheaper than MB and BMW. In Europe, it's the other way around.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: chrisri
It's interesting how different markets have different preference when car shopping. It seems Americans (and Canadians) do not value tradition in the same sense as Europeans do. Maybe that's the reason why Lexus and Infinity are so successful there, and only marginal players in Europe.
Pricing influences it to some degree. Over here, Lexus and Infiniti are cheaper than MB and BMW. In Europe, it's the other way around.
Europeans clearly have a high tolerance for more troubles from vehicles then Americans do. In the US no Euro make is really considered something you'd buy for reliability.
Originally Posted By: chrisri
It's interesting how different markets have different preference when car shopping. It seems Americans (and Canadians) do not value tradition in the same sense as Europeans do. Maybe that's the reason why Lexus and Infinity are so successful there, and only marginal players in Europe.
Pricing influences it to some degree. Over here, Lexus and Infiniti are cheaper than MB and BMW. In Europe, it's the other way around.
Europeans clearly have a high tolerance for more troubles from vehicles then Americans do. In the US no Euro make is really considered something you'd buy for reliability.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: chrisri
It's interesting how different markets have different preference when car shopping. It seems Americans (and Canadians) do not value tradition in the same sense as Europeans do. Maybe that's the reason why Lexus and Infinity are so successful there, and only marginal players in Europe.
Pricing influences it to some degree. Over here, Lexus and Infiniti are cheaper than MB and BMW. In Europe, it's the other way around.
I'm not sure about price difference, Audi is the least expensive amongst big three. It looks to me that people aren't willing to pay big money for Asian cars because prestige that should be part of high end car isn't there. Higher maintenance costs aren't a problem in Europe, that is expected, and part of the package.
Even among normal cars like Ford or a VW flair is important. This is why Passat is better selling then a arguably better Mondeo. Same goes for Golf/Focus.
Originally Posted By: chrisri
It's interesting how different markets have different preference when car shopping. It seems Americans (and Canadians) do not value tradition in the same sense as Europeans do. Maybe that's the reason why Lexus and Infinity are so successful there, and only marginal players in Europe.
Pricing influences it to some degree. Over here, Lexus and Infiniti are cheaper than MB and BMW. In Europe, it's the other way around.
I'm not sure about price difference, Audi is the least expensive amongst big three. It looks to me that people aren't willing to pay big money for Asian cars because prestige that should be part of high end car isn't there. Higher maintenance costs aren't a problem in Europe, that is expected, and part of the package.
Even among normal cars like Ford or a VW flair is important. This is why Passat is better selling then a arguably better Mondeo. Same goes for Golf/Focus.
Originally Posted By: madRiver
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: chrisri
It's interesting how different markets have different preference when car shopping. It seems Americans (and Canadians) do not value tradition in the same sense as Europeans do. Maybe that's the reason why Lexus and Infinity are so successful there, and only marginal players in Europe.
Pricing influences it to some degree. Over here, Lexus and Infiniti are cheaper than MB and BMW. In Europe, it's the other way around.
Europeans clearly have a high tolerance for more troubles from vehicles then Americans do. In the US no Euro make is really considered something you'd buy for reliability.
European cars are not unreliable, but they are high maintenance machines. Without proper maintenance they quickly become owner's nightmare. If someone can't appreciate finesse about how they drive, and experience they provide to the owner, run away.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: chrisri
It's interesting how different markets have different preference when car shopping. It seems Americans (and Canadians) do not value tradition in the same sense as Europeans do. Maybe that's the reason why Lexus and Infinity are so successful there, and only marginal players in Europe.
Pricing influences it to some degree. Over here, Lexus and Infiniti are cheaper than MB and BMW. In Europe, it's the other way around.
Europeans clearly have a high tolerance for more troubles from vehicles then Americans do. In the US no Euro make is really considered something you'd buy for reliability.
European cars are not unreliable, but they are high maintenance machines. Without proper maintenance they quickly become owner's nightmare. If someone can't appreciate finesse about how they drive, and experience they provide to the owner, run away.
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Even among normal cars like Ford or a VW flair is important. This is why Passat is better selling then a arguably better Mondeo. Same goes for Golf/Focus.
It's what the market knows. You have more mechanics in Europe that know how to fix German cars, so the overall level of satisfaction and repair success is better. Over here, most shops do a poor job at repairing German cars because they just don't have the experience or the specialized tools/software. And those indy shops that do specialize in German cars are quite expensive. So, this drives purchasing behaviors, too.
Even among normal cars like Ford or a VW flair is important. This is why Passat is better selling then a arguably better Mondeo. Same goes for Golf/Focus.
It's what the market knows. You have more mechanics in Europe that know how to fix German cars, so the overall level of satisfaction and repair success is better. Over here, most shops do a poor job at repairing German cars because they just don't have the experience or the specialized tools/software. And those indy shops that do specialize in German cars are quite expensive. So, this drives purchasing behaviors, too.
BMW peaked with this 7 series, after this they went down hill.
I want one of these in a bad way. On the plus side if you bought one today along with a 2016 M6, in 2020 the 1987 M6 would be worth more! Neat trick!
I also love the 507.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: gregoron
1. Would cooling down the engine and turbos prior to shutting it off allow less current draw from the batteries?
Yes. More charge time, too. Probably wouldn't cure the problem, but would certainly reduce it.
Originally Posted By: gregoron
Some turbocharged engine's owner's manuals say to let the car cool down a couple of minutes after a hard drive prior to shutting down engine anyways.
Well, yes. Wouldn't be easy or prudent for BMW to rely on that as a defense, though. Maybe for a super-niche sports car, but not for cars that are supposed to be reliable daily drivers for non-enthusiasts.
They could just make the car leave the engine on after the owner requests a shutdown if it's too hot. That sounds like its own kind of PR nightmare, though. I'm just imagining incredulous calls from owners demanding to know why their cars won't turn off, or worrying about pumping their garages full of exhaust.
Originally Posted By: gregoron
2. Would putting vents on the hood allow for the turbos to cool down faster?
Maybe, though it'd be hard to design in any case. It'd have to keep exhaust heat in on a cold start, let heat out when necessary, and keep rain and debris out at all times, all without looking hideous or out-of-place.
Originally Posted By: gregoron
Just theories open to opinions.
Hypotheses, not theories.
Thanks for the reply. Yes, hypothesis is the work I was looking for.
Originally Posted By: gregoron
1. Would cooling down the engine and turbos prior to shutting it off allow less current draw from the batteries?
Yes. More charge time, too. Probably wouldn't cure the problem, but would certainly reduce it.
Originally Posted By: gregoron
Some turbocharged engine's owner's manuals say to let the car cool down a couple of minutes after a hard drive prior to shutting down engine anyways.
Well, yes. Wouldn't be easy or prudent for BMW to rely on that as a defense, though. Maybe for a super-niche sports car, but not for cars that are supposed to be reliable daily drivers for non-enthusiasts.
They could just make the car leave the engine on after the owner requests a shutdown if it's too hot. That sounds like its own kind of PR nightmare, though. I'm just imagining incredulous calls from owners demanding to know why their cars won't turn off, or worrying about pumping their garages full of exhaust.
Originally Posted By: gregoron
2. Would putting vents on the hood allow for the turbos to cool down faster?
Maybe, though it'd be hard to design in any case. It'd have to keep exhaust heat in on a cold start, let heat out when necessary, and keep rain and debris out at all times, all without looking hideous or out-of-place.
Originally Posted By: gregoron
Just theories open to opinions.
Hypotheses, not theories.
Thanks for the reply. Yes, hypothesis is the work I was looking for.
A few things to also keep in mind. While being a 5+ BMW owning BMW lover (currently - 15+ lifetime), I'm no longer a CCA member. I can't see myself buying anything newer than an E46/E39/E38 unless it's an M car. But even then, idk. Will depend on what those newer M cars are doing in the used market and what the major fail points are as they start to get some age on them. BMW has basically turned themselves from EVERY car they built being able to go be competitive, to now only the M cars. Want an LSD? Buy an M. Want a better, less intrusive ABS system? Buy an M. Want to go to the track and not overheat/blow HG's/break water pumps/be scared of a minor over-rev - buy an M. No longer is the 325 a pinnacle of the beginning trackday enthusiast.
In the early-mid 2000's, they were only selling ~300-400k cars annually. Now they're selling over a million. The USA isn't even their largest market anymore - China is. As sad as it is, as other posters have stated - it's time to simply buy something else.
In the early-mid 2000's, they were only selling ~300-400k cars annually. Now they're selling over a million. The USA isn't even their largest market anymore - China is. As sad as it is, as other posters have stated - it's time to simply buy something else.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: KenO
A few things to also keep in mind. While being a 5+ BMW owning BMW lover (currently - 15+ lifetime), I'm no longer a CCA member. I can't see myself buying anything newer than an E46/E39/E38 unless it's an M car. But even then, idk. Will depend on what those newer M cars are doing in the used market and what the major fail points are as they start to get some age on them. BMW has basically turned themselves from EVERY car they built being able to go be competitive, to now only the M cars. Want an LSD? Buy an M. Want a better, less intrusive ABS system? Buy an M. Want to go to the track and not overheat/blow HG's/break water pumps/be scared of a minor over-rev - buy an M. No longer is the 325 a pinnacle of the beginning trackday enthusiast.
In the early-mid 2000's, they were only selling ~300-400k cars annually. Now they're selling over a million. The USA isn't even their largest market anymore - China is. As sad as it is, as other posters have stated - it's time to simply buy something else.
You nailed it. After 10 Bimmers there's not a single new BMW other than the M3/4 that even remotely interests me...
A few things to also keep in mind. While being a 5+ BMW owning BMW lover (currently - 15+ lifetime), I'm no longer a CCA member. I can't see myself buying anything newer than an E46/E39/E38 unless it's an M car. But even then, idk. Will depend on what those newer M cars are doing in the used market and what the major fail points are as they start to get some age on them. BMW has basically turned themselves from EVERY car they built being able to go be competitive, to now only the M cars. Want an LSD? Buy an M. Want a better, less intrusive ABS system? Buy an M. Want to go to the track and not overheat/blow HG's/break water pumps/be scared of a minor over-rev - buy an M. No longer is the 325 a pinnacle of the beginning trackday enthusiast.
In the early-mid 2000's, they were only selling ~300-400k cars annually. Now they're selling over a million. The USA isn't even their largest market anymore - China is. As sad as it is, as other posters have stated - it's time to simply buy something else.
You nailed it. After 10 Bimmers there's not a single new BMW other than the M3/4 that even remotely interests me...
The 128i was the last BMW I'd have considered buying.
The M3/4 is nice. Great car for sure. I'd consider leasing one under the right circumstances. If I were buying, I wouldn't touch it with someone else's 10-foot pole.
On the point about M cars being able to take track abuse: while that's true in most respects, they also tend to eat bottom end bearings. At least, that was true until the turbo generation. We'll see what happens with those.
The M3/4 is nice. Great car for sure. I'd consider leasing one under the right circumstances. If I were buying, I wouldn't touch it with someone else's 10-foot pole.
On the point about M cars being able to take track abuse: while that's true in most respects, they also tend to eat bottom end bearings. At least, that was true until the turbo generation. We'll see what happens with those.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
The 128i was the last BMW I'd have considered buying.
One of my biggest regrets is not ordering a 128i when I had the chance- Alpine White, Coral Red leather, M Sport, Xenons, Cold Weather Pkg., and H-K audio. Manual seats, no hole in the roof.
Perfect.
The 128i was the last BMW I'd have considered buying.
One of my biggest regrets is not ordering a 128i when I had the chance- Alpine White, Coral Red leather, M Sport, Xenons, Cold Weather Pkg., and H-K audio. Manual seats, no hole in the roof.
Perfect.
Friend of mine ended up scouring the country for a CPO 128i with a very similar spec to that. It's one of the VERY few cars that really makes me stop and think whether my RX-8 was the right call.
It's never too late! They ARE out there!
It's never too late! They ARE out there!
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Friend of mine ended up scouring the country for a CPO 128i with a very similar spec to that. It's one of the VERY few cars that really makes me stop and think whether my RX-8 was the right call.
It's never too late! They ARE out there!
It WAS going to be a great deal; BMW's Holiday cash and finance incentives- PLUS the dealer was going to sell it at invoice.
Like I said, it looks like my next car will be either an STI or 2015 Mustang GT(properly optioned, of course).
I'm not leaving BMW; BMW is leaving me.
Friend of mine ended up scouring the country for a CPO 128i with a very similar spec to that. It's one of the VERY few cars that really makes me stop and think whether my RX-8 was the right call.
It's never too late! They ARE out there!
It WAS going to be a great deal; BMW's Holiday cash and finance incentives- PLUS the dealer was going to sell it at invoice.
Like I said, it looks like my next car will be either an STI or 2015 Mustang GT(properly optioned, of course).
I'm not leaving BMW; BMW is leaving me.
- Status
Similar threads
