Is this whats wrong with BMW?
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Originally Posted By: edwardh1
Is this article a hoax or true?
True. And you're 100% right to be horrified.
Just remember this story is specific to one engine. The rest are fine. Or at least, as fine as anything else in the segment.
Originally Posted By: edwardh1
I would love to buy a BMW- I can afford the car - IF it was manufactured without all the techno whiz stuff- one that handles and stops as well as they do. This article is insane to me. Is this a German car engineering mindset?
No. They've had their issues as any car company does, but something this bad is very much out of the norm.
IMO, what's really wrong with BMW today is that they are trying to be Mercedes. Less focused on the joy of driving, more focused on comfort and kitsch. It's like they completely forgot what made them great. But that's another story.
Is this article a hoax or true?
True. And you're 100% right to be horrified.
Just remember this story is specific to one engine. The rest are fine. Or at least, as fine as anything else in the segment.
Originally Posted By: edwardh1
I would love to buy a BMW- I can afford the car - IF it was manufactured without all the techno whiz stuff- one that handles and stops as well as they do. This article is insane to me. Is this a German car engineering mindset?
No. They've had their issues as any car company does, but something this bad is very much out of the norm.
IMO, what's really wrong with BMW today is that they are trying to be Mercedes. Less focused on the joy of driving, more focused on comfort and kitsch. It's like they completely forgot what made them great. But that's another story.
Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: Greasymechtech
Solar panel on the dash or rear deck, or built into the sunroof or rear wing, or.... can prevent the problem. $20 solar panel obviously not high-tech or fancy enough for automakers to build in.
I wonder how many engineering snafus among all automakers that are out there that can be solved by a DIY'er or aftermarket.
Still trust that OE engineering?
Yes. Far more "right" with OE engineering than "wrong". Far more.
Exactly. For all the problems the aftermarket solves, it generates more catastrophes like this in a month than the OEs do in a year.
Originally Posted By: Greasymechtech
Solar panel on the dash or rear deck, or built into the sunroof or rear wing, or.... can prevent the problem. $20 solar panel obviously not high-tech or fancy enough for automakers to build in.
I wonder how many engineering snafus among all automakers that are out there that can be solved by a DIY'er or aftermarket.
Still trust that OE engineering?
Yes. Far more "right" with OE engineering than "wrong". Far more.
Exactly. For all the problems the aftermarket solves, it generates more catastrophes like this in a month than the OEs do in a year.
......
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Originally Posted By: edwardh1
Is this article a hoax or true? I would love to buy a BMW- I can afford the car - IF it was manufactured without all the techno whiz stuff- one that handles and stops as well as they do. This article is insane to me. Is this a German car engineering mindset?
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/...ons-bmw-n63-v8/
NO. Appears to have EVERYTHING to do with USA EPA who has become radicalized to such an extreme that the batteries are only charged while coasting, according to the article.
That's nuts.
But then again, so are plastic cooling systems + intake manifolds. Guess who drove that one as well?
The EPA needs a hot kerosene flush followed by a good wire-brushing...internally as well as external..from both ends. What comes out needs to be tagged as "HAZARDOUS WASTE" and treated as such. Then they need to be subjected to their own extremely-lean-burning standards (massive budget cuts). They are nothing but a rogue, radicalized, politicalized agency with way too much power over energy and the economy.
Power Corrupts. Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.
Yesterday's Flower Children are Today's Blooming Idiots!
Is this article a hoax or true? I would love to buy a BMW- I can afford the car - IF it was manufactured without all the techno whiz stuff- one that handles and stops as well as they do. This article is insane to me. Is this a German car engineering mindset?
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/...ons-bmw-n63-v8/
NO. Appears to have EVERYTHING to do with USA EPA who has become radicalized to such an extreme that the batteries are only charged while coasting, according to the article.
That's nuts.
But then again, so are plastic cooling systems + intake manifolds. Guess who drove that one as well?
The EPA needs a hot kerosene flush followed by a good wire-brushing...internally as well as external..from both ends. What comes out needs to be tagged as "HAZARDOUS WASTE" and treated as such. Then they need to be subjected to their own extremely-lean-burning standards (massive budget cuts). They are nothing but a rogue, radicalized, politicalized agency with way too much power over energy and the economy.
Power Corrupts. Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.
Yesterday's Flower Children are Today's Blooming Idiots!
Originally Posted By: Danh
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
BMW does not want to re certify the cars with the EPA possible leading to a class action law suite like Hyundai just got in.
All companies try to squeeze every last ounce out of fuel economy when they certify their EPA estimates. Fine and good, but when unexpected problems or minor driveability issues come up later, the customer is stuck as the fix might round the EPA number down instead of up, recertification would be needed and customers will want compensation for "lost" fuel economy.
A current example is the 2015 Honda CRV. It has an issue with occasional low idle speed speed that produces unpleasant vibrations and a low-speed "thrumming" vibration. These aren't serious problems but Honda has been working on a solution for 8 months or so. I suspect the issue is they can't figure out how to fix the problem without impacting EPA mileage. Maddening. You'd think a smart company could build in a bit of a cushion, but maybe the marketing guys have taken over.
As far as BMW is concerned, BITOG members tend to keep cars a while. Imagine owning one of these when the warranty is over.
I assume BMW is doing it for their CAFE numbers, no one who buys an $80k German V8 sedan cares all that much about a MPG or two.
Having said that BMW's engines tend to be more fragile than Mercedes, their TT's V8's have no such issues.
The electric water pumps they are getting away from really turned me off, horrible design.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
BMW does not want to re certify the cars with the EPA possible leading to a class action law suite like Hyundai just got in.
All companies try to squeeze every last ounce out of fuel economy when they certify their EPA estimates. Fine and good, but when unexpected problems or minor driveability issues come up later, the customer is stuck as the fix might round the EPA number down instead of up, recertification would be needed and customers will want compensation for "lost" fuel economy.
A current example is the 2015 Honda CRV. It has an issue with occasional low idle speed speed that produces unpleasant vibrations and a low-speed "thrumming" vibration. These aren't serious problems but Honda has been working on a solution for 8 months or so. I suspect the issue is they can't figure out how to fix the problem without impacting EPA mileage. Maddening. You'd think a smart company could build in a bit of a cushion, but maybe the marketing guys have taken over.
As far as BMW is concerned, BITOG members tend to keep cars a while. Imagine owning one of these when the warranty is over.
I assume BMW is doing it for their CAFE numbers, no one who buys an $80k German V8 sedan cares all that much about a MPG or two.
Having said that BMW's engines tend to be more fragile than Mercedes, their TT's V8's have no such issues.
The electric water pumps they are getting away from really turned me off, horrible design.
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Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
I assume BMW is doing it for their CAFE numbers
They're doing it because they want to make the CAFE numbers AND deliver large amounts of easily-deployed horsepower at the same time.
And let's not forget how much harder it is for any company to make the CAFE numbers because so many people buy pointlessly tall vehicles.
The problem isn't one thing or another; it's all of them together. Yes, if the fuel economy regs went away, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. But you could say the exact same thing about consumer demand for high horsepower, etc.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
The electric water pumps they are getting away from really turned me off, horrible design.
Really? I've been hearing the second-gen pump for the N52 is rock-solid.
I assume BMW is doing it for their CAFE numbers
They're doing it because they want to make the CAFE numbers AND deliver large amounts of easily-deployed horsepower at the same time.
And let's not forget how much harder it is for any company to make the CAFE numbers because so many people buy pointlessly tall vehicles.
The problem isn't one thing or another; it's all of them together. Yes, if the fuel economy regs went away, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. But you could say the exact same thing about consumer demand for high horsepower, etc.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
The electric water pumps they are getting away from really turned me off, horrible design.
Really? I've been hearing the second-gen pump for the N52 is rock-solid.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
IMO, what's really wrong with BMW today is that they are trying to be Mercedes. Less focused on the joy of driving, more focused on comfort and kitsch. It's like they completely forgot what made them great. But that's another story.
They haven't forgotten, IMO. They just want to appeal to a different/bigger piece of the market in order to increase sales.
Here is my take on it. Others are free to disagree.
An average new BMW car buyer in the US may like to brag about the fact that they own an UDM, but he/she doesn't really care to drive a true UDM which would sacrifice comfort for crisp handling and sporty/stiff suspension. What he/she wants is a couch on wheels with a BMW logo on it. And so BMW plays into it. Recent new BMWs have toned down the sportiness in exchange for more comfort. BMW has become much closer to Mercedes in that respect.
This made it easier for other car makers to catch up to BMW when it comes to handling because BMW has started moving backwards in that department. Example: Caddy ATS.
Is it a bad thing? As far as BMW is concerned, it's a great thing. Their sales are doing well. Now, if you're one of the minority, looking for that best handling fun small sedan, you might have to look elsewhere, or pay up for an M3.
Alas, as the article in the OP states, some of these top performing BMWs are currently far from reliable.
IMO, what's really wrong with BMW today is that they are trying to be Mercedes. Less focused on the joy of driving, more focused on comfort and kitsch. It's like they completely forgot what made them great. But that's another story.
They haven't forgotten, IMO. They just want to appeal to a different/bigger piece of the market in order to increase sales.
Here is my take on it. Others are free to disagree.
An average new BMW car buyer in the US may like to brag about the fact that they own an UDM, but he/she doesn't really care to drive a true UDM which would sacrifice comfort for crisp handling and sporty/stiff suspension. What he/she wants is a couch on wheels with a BMW logo on it. And so BMW plays into it. Recent new BMWs have toned down the sportiness in exchange for more comfort. BMW has become much closer to Mercedes in that respect.
This made it easier for other car makers to catch up to BMW when it comes to handling because BMW has started moving backwards in that department. Example: Caddy ATS.
Is it a bad thing? As far as BMW is concerned, it's a great thing. Their sales are doing well. Now, if you're one of the minority, looking for that best handling fun small sedan, you might have to look elsewhere, or pay up for an M3.
Originally Posted By: BTW
I've said it before and I'll repeat it here...
I would NEVER own a modern BMW out of warranty
And the same can be applied to other premium German makes, I'm afraid.
I've said it before and I'll repeat it here...
I would NEVER own a modern BMW out of warranty
And the same can be applied to other premium German makes, I'm afraid.
Unfortunately even using a battery tender or solar charger wouldnt mitigate this issue.
It might help significantly or not so much.
Think about it.. its the deep cycling that's killing the batteries.
What would fix it? A type of battery that is mostly immune to deep discharge... Or a massive battery that is so large that even with these loads it doesn't reach a significantly lower its state of charge.
A typical lead acid battery is designed to maintain a very high state of charge. If you discharge it more than that and recharge it.. it will have its lifespan shortened greatly.
Not sure how a battery tender will help the battery that's being discharged by the excessive after-run cooling and other accessories when sitting at the grocery store.... unless the battery is so big that plugging it in after reaching home would just be topping it up vs recharging from significantly drained.
It might help significantly or not so much.
Think about it.. its the deep cycling that's killing the batteries.
What would fix it? A type of battery that is mostly immune to deep discharge... Or a massive battery that is so large that even with these loads it doesn't reach a significantly lower its state of charge.
A typical lead acid battery is designed to maintain a very high state of charge. If you discharge it more than that and recharge it.. it will have its lifespan shortened greatly.
Not sure how a battery tender will help the battery that's being discharged by the excessive after-run cooling and other accessories when sitting at the grocery store.... unless the battery is so big that plugging it in after reaching home would just be topping it up vs recharging from significantly drained.
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Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
BMW does not want to re certify the cars with the EPA possible leading to a class action law suite like Hyundai just got in.
Bingo, seems pretty cut and dry. They'll probably find another way to retain the fuel economy with additional improvements while fixing the charging issue going forward and subsequently be able to re-certify it going forward at the same numbers but owners of previous models will still have the issue mentioned in the article.
This is what happens when a company that used to simply obsess about performance gets caught up in the fuel economy numbers game IMHO.
BMW does not want to re certify the cars with the EPA possible leading to a class action law suite like Hyundai just got in.
Bingo, seems pretty cut and dry. They'll probably find another way to retain the fuel economy with additional improvements while fixing the charging issue going forward and subsequently be able to re-certify it going forward at the same numbers but owners of previous models will still have the issue mentioned in the article.
This is what happens when a company that used to simply obsess about performance gets caught up in the fuel economy numbers game IMHO.
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Originally Posted By: edwardh1
and you buy the battery from the BMW dealer and add the cost of "registering" the battery- yikes?
It is probably included as part of the maintenance plan, just like the oil and filter.
and you buy the battery from the BMW dealer and add the cost of "registering" the battery- yikes?
It is probably included as part of the maintenance plan, just like the oil and filter.
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Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
I'm sure their are aftermarket tuners that fix the issue.
So i buy an $80,000 new BMW then have to take it to an aftermarket tuner to somehow find a fix that may also void my warranty if the dealership discovers I've tampered with engine management systems. In essence, giving them an easy out. How many levels of unacceptable did i just cross?
I think the easy thing here would be to continue to let them change the batteries on their dime while under warranty and then when the car is out of warranty, just have the tune added to fix the charging issue.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
I'm sure their are aftermarket tuners that fix the issue.
So i buy an $80,000 new BMW then have to take it to an aftermarket tuner to somehow find a fix that may also void my warranty if the dealership discovers I've tampered with engine management systems. In essence, giving them an easy out. How many levels of unacceptable did i just cross?
I think the easy thing here would be to continue to let them change the batteries on their dime while under warranty and then when the car is out of warranty, just have the tune added to fix the charging issue.
New battery every oil change? Charging only during coasting? This is retarded. BMW never figured in highway trips?
Stupid for a car with so much cash thrown at it.
Stupid for a car with so much cash thrown at it.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: BTW
I've said it before and I'll repeat it here...
I would NEVER own a modern BMW out of warranty
And the same can be applied to other premium German makes, I'm afraid.
These cars were born to be leased.
Originally Posted By: BTW
I've said it before and I'll repeat it here...
I would NEVER own a modern BMW out of warranty
And the same can be applied to other premium German makes, I'm afraid.
These cars were born to be leased.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
IMO, what's really wrong with BMW today is that they are trying to be Mercedes. Less focused on the joy of driving, more focused on comfort and kitsch. It's like they completely forgot what made them great. But that's another story.
They haven't forgotten, IMO. They just want to appeal to a different/bigger piece of the market in order to increase sales.
Here is my take on it. Others are free to disagree.
An average new BMW car buyer in the US may like to brag about the fact that they own an UDM, but he/she doesn't really care to drive a true UDM which would sacrifice comfort for crisp handling and sporty/stiff suspension. What he/she wants is a couch on wheels with a BMW logo on it. And so BMW plays into it. Recent new BMWs have toned down the sportiness in exchange for more comfort. BMW has become much closer to Mercedes in that respect.
This made it easier for other car makers to catch up to BMW when it comes to handling because BMW has started moving backwards in that department. Example: Caddy ATS.
Is it a bad thing? As far as BMW is concerned, it's a great thing. Their sales are doing well. Now, if you're one of the minority, looking for that best handling fun small sedan, you might have to look elsewhere, or pay up for an M3.
Alas, as the article in the OP states, some of these top performing BMWs are currently far from reliable.
Welll yeah. That's why I said it's like they forgot what made them great. I'm sure it's all sitting in a drawer somewhere in HQ.
I think you're generally right in your assessment. I feel pretty much the same way. There are only two things that give me pause.
First, it's not like there's no major market for what BMW used to offer. It must have been a pretty big deal for a long time, or BMW would never have become the powerhouse it now is. The market must also still be pretty significant, because Cadillac is picking up BMW's slack. It may be true that the market for plush barges is bigger, but it can't be true that no one cares about cars that are more fun to drive.
Second, BMW was successful not just because it made good products, but because it had a sustainable brand. Brand sustainability depends (among many things) on having a distinct offering that appeals to a loyal customer base, and it seems to me that they are deliberately giving something up in those respects. It may pay off now, but at some point the chickens are going to come home to roost. The 3-Series and 5-Series have lost their long-held positions as the best driving cars in their respective classes, and the M brand is no longer secure as the enthusiast's choice. That's bound to spell trouble unless BMW turns things around in a big way.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
IMO, what's really wrong with BMW today is that they are trying to be Mercedes. Less focused on the joy of driving, more focused on comfort and kitsch. It's like they completely forgot what made them great. But that's another story.
They haven't forgotten, IMO. They just want to appeal to a different/bigger piece of the market in order to increase sales.
Here is my take on it. Others are free to disagree.
An average new BMW car buyer in the US may like to brag about the fact that they own an UDM, but he/she doesn't really care to drive a true UDM which would sacrifice comfort for crisp handling and sporty/stiff suspension. What he/she wants is a couch on wheels with a BMW logo on it. And so BMW plays into it. Recent new BMWs have toned down the sportiness in exchange for more comfort. BMW has become much closer to Mercedes in that respect.
This made it easier for other car makers to catch up to BMW when it comes to handling because BMW has started moving backwards in that department. Example: Caddy ATS.
Is it a bad thing? As far as BMW is concerned, it's a great thing. Their sales are doing well. Now, if you're one of the minority, looking for that best handling fun small sedan, you might have to look elsewhere, or pay up for an M3.
Welll yeah. That's why I said it's like they forgot what made them great. I'm sure it's all sitting in a drawer somewhere in HQ.
I think you're generally right in your assessment. I feel pretty much the same way. There are only two things that give me pause.
First, it's not like there's no major market for what BMW used to offer. It must have been a pretty big deal for a long time, or BMW would never have become the powerhouse it now is. The market must also still be pretty significant, because Cadillac is picking up BMW's slack. It may be true that the market for plush barges is bigger, but it can't be true that no one cares about cars that are more fun to drive.
Second, BMW was successful not just because it made good products, but because it had a sustainable brand. Brand sustainability depends (among many things) on having a distinct offering that appeals to a loyal customer base, and it seems to me that they are deliberately giving something up in those respects. It may pay off now, but at some point the chickens are going to come home to roost. The 3-Series and 5-Series have lost their long-held positions as the best driving cars in their respective classes, and the M brand is no longer secure as the enthusiast's choice. That's bound to spell trouble unless BMW turns things around in a big way.
if the epa or whoever sets the car mileage rules went away, car makers would go back to 12 MPG city 16 MPG highway sedans
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