Interesting article on 9mm vs ___

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: klt1986


Fortunately I have never been in a situation where I was close to running out of ammo before and hope I never am. Personally, I like to prepare for the unexpected.

In my area different situations may arise that require us to respond to neighboring jurisdictions....such as a school shooting or a bank robbery...just to name a couple. It is certainly an advantage if the officers carry the same caliber weapons. So, to answer your question, yes officers have used ammo from fallen/wounded officers before. Does it happen often? Fortunately it does not. Just because something is highly unlikely to happen or very unlikely to happen doesn't mean you don't take steps to prepare for it.

You guys don't have carbines?

 

[SilverC6]

Hi capacity 45 ACP for the nightstand and travel.

5 shot .357 S&W airweight revolver for concealed carry.

The idea is to incapacitate before they can do you any damage.

Why bother with anything else?

 

[klt1986]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: klt1986


Fortunately I have never been in a situation where I was close to running out of ammo before and hope I never am. Personally, I like to prepare for the unexpected.

In my area different situations may arise that require us to respond to neighboring jurisdictions....such as a school shooting or a bank robbery...just to name a couple. It is certainly an advantage if the officers carry the same caliber weapons. So, to answer your question, yes officers have used ammo from fallen/wounded officers before. Does it happen often? Fortunately it does not. Just because something is highly unlikely to happen or very unlikely to happen doesn't mean you don't take steps to prepare for it.

You guys don't have carbines?


Sure do! Patrol rifles and 870's.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: klt1986
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: klt1986


Fortunately I have never been in a situation where I was close to running out of ammo before and hope I never am. Personally, I like to prepare for the unexpected.

In my area different situations may arise that require us to respond to neighboring jurisdictions....such as a school shooting or a bank robbery...just to name a couple. It is certainly an advantage if the officers carry the same caliber weapons. So, to answer your question, yes officers have used ammo from fallen/wounded officers before. Does it happen often? Fortunately it does not. Just because something is highly unlikely to happen or very unlikely to happen doesn't mean you don't take steps to prepare for it.

You guys don't have carbines?


Sure do! Patrol rifles and 870's.

That's what I figured. All .45 is going to do is mean officers train less because of more expensive ammo and the guns will be too large for some officers.

 

[klt1986]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: klt1986
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: klt1986


Fortunately I have never been in a situation where I was close to running out of ammo before and hope I never am. Personally, I like to prepare for the unexpected.

In my area different situations may arise that require us to respond to neighboring jurisdictions....such as a school shooting or a bank robbery...just to name a couple. It is certainly an advantage if the officers carry the same caliber weapons. So, to answer your question, yes officers have used ammo from fallen/wounded officers before. Does it happen often? Fortunately it does not. Just because something is highly unlikely to happen or very unlikely to happen doesn't mean you don't take steps to prepare for it.

You guys don't have carbines?


Sure do! Patrol rifles and 870's.

That's what I figured. All .45 is going to do is mean officers train less because of more expensive ammo and the guns will be too large for some officers.


True, ammo will be more expensive but the department is still going to provide the same amount of practice ammo as they always have. The officers who train with their own ammo are going to do so whether they are issued a .40 or .45. We buy our ammo from a state contract and it seems reasonable to me...I wish I could buy it at that price!

We actually picked the officers with the smallest hands(all but 1 were females) and ran them through a qualification course with the 21 or 30. They were surprised at how much softer the recoil was on the 45 compared to the 40 and all qualified the first time out. None had hands that were too small for the grip.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
If penetration's all you care for get a tokarev 7.62x25mm. Some of those milsurp ball rounds will reliably pierce kevlar.
Who said that?

you don't believe me? here, a video happy?

Probably not a proper test as body armor is designed to work when over a "human like" surface (which has "give"). It will fail when placed over something hard like concrete or wood. With that said, despite the fact that kevlar would stop a bullet it may not mean the person would survive the shot.

Here is a website that has some interesting "experiences" (again, not a certified test) when testing level IIIA kevlar against various bullets. Notice what happens to the clay behind the kevlar...

Testing IIIA Kevlar

 

[Robenstein]

The 7.62 Tokarev is a known penetrator. I recall seeing tests on Kevlar helmets where 357 Mag rounds would not penetrate but the tokarev rounds would. Carlos the Jackal was a fan of using the CZ52 loaded with the hotter sub gun tokarev rounds because of this quality. The regular Tokarev pistol was not strong enough for the hot sub gun loads.

 

[Mystic]

The .45 does have less recoil than the .40! I sort of regretted buying the .40 Glock and I would not recommend it to anybody. A 9mm Glock is better. I would sell the .40 and get a 9mm Glock but here in Colorado they have these stupid laws now where there is a 15 round limit to magazine capacity. t is a long story.

I like both the Glock and the S&W M&P.

I like 9mm and .45 for a semi-auto and .38 Special and .357 for a revolver. The .40 cal round is a piece of junk!

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
The .45 does have less recoil than the .40! I sort of regretted buying the .40 Glock and I would not recommend it to anybody. A 9mm Glock is better. I would sell the .40 and get a 9mm Glock but here in Colorado they have these stupid laws now where there is a 15 round limit to magazine capacity. t is a long story.

I like both the Glock and the S&W M&P.

I like 9mm and .45 for a semi-auto and .38 Special and .357 for a revolver. The .40 cal round is a piece of junk!


From a pure physics perspective, recoil is only a function projectile weight and velocity (Newton's Second Law). However, perceived recoil is a far more complex topic, involving the bore axis in relation to the shooter, grip/fit, weapon weight, functioning of the action (unlocking, sliding, etc.) and a few things I probably haven't thought of.

To compare the .40 to the .45 they would have to be in identical guns...a Glock 22 and a Glock 21, for example would at least be close...while a Glock 22 and a 1911 have, really, nothing to do with each other because of all the variables.

Looking at the ballistics tables, the .40 outperforms the 9mm with greater impact energy, and it allows a larger bullet cross-section while still having a double-stack magazine...but to say it's a piece of junk, without qualifying on what basis you're comparing round performance is specious at best.

I'm sorry to see what's happened to your great state. I used to live in Colorado...it used to be a free state, where independence and self-reliance were valued...but the influx of Californians in the 90s sure changed Colorado...

In the meantime, I agree, that .40 Glock is worthless...they're hardly worth keeping...I can help you with that...I would give you a fair price...considering the burden from which I would be saving you...

 

[Pablo]

The Glock 23 is tremendously punishing to shoot. Frankly I'd rather shoot the Glock 29 and standard 10mm ammo! Certainly the 23 is more abusing than the 20 even with HOT 10mm ammo.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
The Glock 23 is tremendously punishing to shoot. Frankly I'd rather shoot the Glock 29 and standard 10mm ammo! Certainly the 23 is more abusing than the 20 even with HOT 10mm ammo.


I've not shot the 23 that I own...just haven't gotten around to it yet...but your impressions are interesting to hear.

My H&K USP Compact is not at all punishing to shoot...yet it's about the same size as the Glock 23...and it holds 12 rounds of .40. I shoot full power rounds with it, not just ball/target, but 180 gr JHP Federal LE and 165 gr Speer Gold Dot...and it's pretty pleasant to shoot....must be some of those "other factors" at play, then...

 

[Mystic]

Another problem with the Glock .40 is that people have sometimes noticed wear because of the high velocity .40 round. I personally think the .40 round is a total piece of junk. Glocks are great with 9mm however, and there are a lot of things to like with the Glock. Especially now that they have the fourth generation Glock. I have not shot the Glock .45 I don't think, but I did shot the Glock .357 and it is better than the .40. The reason I say I don't think I shot the Glock .45 is because there used to be this indoor range where they would let people rent guns. And they liked Glocks at that indoor range (the owner used to be an Army Ranger) so the guns were Glocks. And I rented some guns just to see what they were like. So I may have shot the Glock .45 but I can't remember.

I do know that I would far prefer a .45 to a .40. Heck, I would prefer a 9mm to a .40. Another round that is kind of rare but really nice is the 38 Super. I shot a gun chambered for that round and it was probably the best shooting semi-auto I have ever shot in my life. But the 38 Super is sort of rare.

How does the Glock .45 compare to the 1911? I definitely have shot probably three or four 1911 .45s. I prefer the full size .45.

I also like .357 but only in a full size .357 magnum revolver. Shooting .357 in a light weight revolver is murder on your hands.

I don't really care very much about extremely light weight handguns. They are useful for concealment but otherwise pretty useless. Try a light weight .38 Special some day with powerful ammo. If I had one of those very light weight five shot .38s I would load it with some sort of very light recoil ammo.

I like both the 9mm Glock fourth generation and the S&W M&P 9mm. I don't know which is best. They both have strong points and weak points.

 

[Hokiefyd]

I shot a fullsize M&P .40 last Saturday and must say that it wasn't all that pleasant to shoot. My 9mm Shield shoots easier for me, and it's a far smaller gun. Heck, I preferred the compact Rock Island Armory .45 that he had and that I also shot. I've only shot a few .40s, and must say that I didn't care for any of them. I found the .45 to be more pleasant. But I know the .45 round travels much slower, too...

 

[Mystic]

That .40 round is a piece of junk. I would not recommend it for any gun. Unless somebody works for a law enforcement agency and they require the .40, I say stay away from it. 9mm and .45 (and 38 Super) work just find in a semi-auto. For a revolver, 38 Special or .357.

 

[Robenstein]

If you have a heavy and all steel gun then the 40 S&W is still a viable cartridge. I had a Beretta Cougar and a CZ 40B(CZ and Colt collaboration that spawned the DAO Colt Z40 variant) and they were manageable, but I did not see enough benefit to the round to justify keeping it on hand so I sold them and got a new Beretta PX4 in 9mm. The PX4 shares the same locking system as the cougar I had and a similar bore axis height and despite it being polymer it shoots nicer than the cougar and holds 7 more rounds.

 

[Mystic]

In any case, bullet placement is the most important thing. A 9mm round on target is a lot more effective than a .44 magnum round that misses.

I am just a little old man who wears glasses and I could not hit the broadside of a barn from inside the barn. You should see how some of these young guys (and gals) who were in the Army and the Marines can shoot. I shot with a Green Beret from Fort Carson (and with his wife also who had been in the Army) at the local gun range. He put a single hole in a target with a magazine of rounds using a 1911 .45. You don't want to get into a gun fight with some of these young people from the military.

In fact-that is an American secret weapon. Some of these stupid terrorists just spray and shoot with an AK-47.

 

[Tempest]

As someone else pointed out, Police often have to shoot at vehicles or barriers that most civilians will not have to deal with.

Their requirements are different.

The FBI originally went with the 10mm because it was unhappy with the barrier performance of the 9mm. The infamous Miami shootout in 1986 being one of the prime examples.

Full power 10mm is beyond the practical abilities of most people to shoot accurately so they went with a dumbed down 10mm round. This lower power 10mm is what brought about the .40 SW since it could fit into a 9mm-ish sized weapon with greater capacity than the 10mm guns.

I have 2 40. cals and am not overly fond of them. I won't be buying anymore. I think for civilians not shooting through cars the 9mm is about optimum.

FBI HRT uses 1911's in .45. That should speak volumes as to what elite teams believe to be the best man stopper. Both in caliber and weapon choice.

 

[Tempest]

I have an older German Sig P226 in 9mm that is a dream to shoot. Later I had a chance to shoot a newly introduced P229 in .40 which was not fun at all. Felt recoil, muzzle blast and muzzle flip were not conducive to good shooting.

I've never shot but been around .357 Sig on the range and the blast is horrendous. It's amazing that they issue this cartridge to Air Marshals that would have to discharge their weapon in an enclosed metal box.

 

[Mystic]

You should check out the blast and noise and muzzle flash from a .44 magnum revolver loaded with fairly powerful .44 magnum rounds! Surprisingly enough I was able to shoot it accurately. But I did not like shooting it.

We had a woman there at the range who had qualified for concealed carry with her tiny .38 Special revolver. She had never shot a .44 magnum and she took down six metal popup targets with six shots from that .44 magnum. About the only handgun she had ever shot was that tiny .38. She was a good shot!

One of the best shots I ever saw was this elderly woman I used to shoot with. Her hands were so bad she had to have somebody load the rounds for her in the magazines and she had to have somebody take her gun apart for cleaning. She could flat out shoot. She worked until she died. She never retired.

In addition to her I would not want to get into a gun fight with this ex-Navy Seal guy, that Green Beret guy, a range instructor, and a Parks and Recreation Ranger.

 

[Robenstein]

I shot an old Astra Terminator...that is a snub nosed 44 magnum. I can only assume they gave it that name because it killed your hand as well as anything you hit with it. Holy Muzzle Flash Batman!