I Don't Change My Oil - Test Results
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Originally Posted By: Chris142
the oil may get burned and replaced as needed but the contaminants sitting in the bottom of the pan stay
What contaminants? They should all be circulating in the oil and eventually get trapped by the filter.
If he's got big heavy chunks in oil that can't be carried by the oil flow, then he's got a whole other big problem on his hands.
the oil may get burned and replaced as needed but the contaminants sitting in the bottom of the pan stay
What contaminants? They should all be circulating in the oil and eventually get trapped by the filter.
If he's got big heavy chunks in oil that can't be carried by the oil flow, then he's got a whole other big problem on his hands.
So.....To the OP....Interesting concept, though not new. I knew guys back in the '60s that followed this theory with the old bypass toilet paper filters.
My question.....If your vehicle did not use/leak oil, how would that change your strategy? Would you drain some off, from time to time, just to put a fresh quart in? If so, why not just change it all, periodically? Oops....that would be conventional wisdom.....
My question.....If your vehicle did not use/leak oil, how would that change your strategy? Would you drain some off, from time to time, just to put a fresh quart in? If so, why not just change it all, periodically? Oops....that would be conventional wisdom.....
How big is your oil pan??? How much oil do you replace with every filter?? And how much oil do you end up using in a fixed distance (for example every 30,000 miles)???
Wouldn't be cheaper to fix the cause of the consumption and change the oil and filter every 12,000 miles, assuming it has a 4 quart sump,
Wouldn't be cheaper to fix the cause of the consumption and change the oil and filter every 12,000 miles, assuming it has a 4 quart sump,
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
So.....To the OP....Interesting concept, though not new. I knew guys back in the '60s that followed this theory with the old bypass toilet paper filters.
My question.....If your vehicle did not use/leak oil, how would that change your strategy? Would you drain some off, from time to time, just to put a fresh quart in? If so, why not just change it all, periodically? Oops....that would be conventional wisdom.....
Hard to say what I would do if I did not leak/burn oil. I don't really consider 1 quart every 4k to be very significant, since I've had new cars that used more oil.
Why not change it all? The answer is cost and resource savings, along with convenience, ease of maintenance. The savings in resources are obvious... I spend about 30% what I used to doing conventional oil changes. I catch the waste oil in a paper cup, no need jack up the car, can do filter changes on the road and save waste oil in a little plastic water bottle to save for disposal later. It takes me YEARS to generate enough waste oil take a gallon in for recycling.
So.....To the OP....Interesting concept, though not new. I knew guys back in the '60s that followed this theory with the old bypass toilet paper filters.
My question.....If your vehicle did not use/leak oil, how would that change your strategy? Would you drain some off, from time to time, just to put a fresh quart in? If so, why not just change it all, periodically? Oops....that would be conventional wisdom.....
Hard to say what I would do if I did not leak/burn oil. I don't really consider 1 quart every 4k to be very significant, since I've had new cars that used more oil.
Why not change it all? The answer is cost and resource savings, along with convenience, ease of maintenance. The savings in resources are obvious... I spend about 30% what I used to doing conventional oil changes. I catch the waste oil in a paper cup, no need jack up the car, can do filter changes on the road and save waste oil in a little plastic water bottle to save for disposal later. It takes me YEARS to generate enough waste oil take a gallon in for recycling.
Originally Posted By: Darwin1138
How big is your oil pan??? How much oil do you replace with every filter?? And how much oil do you end up using in a fixed distance (for example every 30,000 miles)???
Wouldn't be cheaper to fix the cause of the consumption and change the oil and filter every 12,000 miles, assuming it has a 4 quart sump,
The sump in this car is 4 liters, or a little more than 4 quarts. I use a quart with burning/leaking and filter replacement makeup oil
I think most of the consumption is going past the rings, valves, so cost of repair is not a realistic alternative.
It might be cheaper to have an engine which uses no oil and change filters and oil at 12k, but I wouldn't expect the oil to be very clean, and I wouldn't expect there to be no gunk at the end of the cycle.
How big is your oil pan??? How much oil do you replace with every filter?? And how much oil do you end up using in a fixed distance (for example every 30,000 miles)???
Wouldn't be cheaper to fix the cause of the consumption and change the oil and filter every 12,000 miles, assuming it has a 4 quart sump,
The sump in this car is 4 liters, or a little more than 4 quarts. I use a quart with burning/leaking and filter replacement makeup oil
I think most of the consumption is going past the rings, valves, so cost of repair is not a realistic alternative.
It might be cheaper to have an engine which uses no oil and change filters and oil at 12k, but I wouldn't expect the oil to be very clean, and I wouldn't expect there to be no gunk at the end of the cycle.
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How much oil is replenished during a filter change?
If you're not generating much in the way of contaminants and your goal is resource conservation, then wouldn't using a better filter for twice the interval or longer make more sense?
Many of us who do change our oil every 7-10k miles leave the filter for up to twice that that long (for my Honda - 6k interval for the Subie). In fact, if you change your oil filter every 3k miles you're tossing 5 filters away for every one I toss.
If you're not generating much in the way of contaminants and your goal is resource conservation, then wouldn't using a better filter for twice the interval or longer make more sense?
Many of us who do change our oil every 7-10k miles leave the filter for up to twice that that long (for my Honda - 6k interval for the Subie). In fact, if you change your oil filter every 3k miles you're tossing 5 filters away for every one I toss.
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
How much oil is replenished during a filter change?
If you're not generating much in the way of contaminants and your goal is resource conservation, then wouldn't using a better filter for twice the interval or longer make more sense?
Many of us who do change our oil every 7-10k miles leave the filter for up to twice that that long (for my Honda - 6k interval for the Subie). In fact, if you change your oil filter every 3k miles you're tossing 5 filters away for every one I toss.
Yeah, I don't believe keeping a filter on for a long time is such a great idea. If you've ever owned a vacuum cleaner, a fish tank, changed a air con filter, etc. you can see the logic. It's important to keep oil pressure high. An oil filter might still work after 12k, but for sure you've lost oil pressure. So I don't believe the kool-aid about "high mileage" oil filters. You lose pressure, it's as simple as that.
How much oil is replenished during a filter change?
If you're not generating much in the way of contaminants and your goal is resource conservation, then wouldn't using a better filter for twice the interval or longer make more sense?
Many of us who do change our oil every 7-10k miles leave the filter for up to twice that that long (for my Honda - 6k interval for the Subie). In fact, if you change your oil filter every 3k miles you're tossing 5 filters away for every one I toss.
Yeah, I don't believe keeping a filter on for a long time is such a great idea. If you've ever owned a vacuum cleaner, a fish tank, changed a air con filter, etc. you can see the logic. It's important to keep oil pressure high. An oil filter might still work after 12k, but for sure you've lost oil pressure. So I don't believe the kool-aid about "high mileage" oil filters. You lose pressure, it's as simple as that.
I am not extending OCI like that, but I am using the microGreen filter and recommendations. First step is to change oil/filter using MG filter. My 2012 M3 Skyactiv takes 4.5 quarts. At 10K miles change only the filter and top off oil. I found that it takes half a quart to do that. At 20K miles do the same thing. At 30K change oil and filter and start the cycle over again. The $15 cost per filter is more than offset by the reduced use of oil. I was not looking to save money, actually. I am focused on reducing waste oil. The factory OCI is 7,500 miles. So far, looking into the fill hole (with LED flashlight since the valve cover is black plastic) reveals shiny silver parts without a hint of varnish or sludge at 35K miles.
Time will tell, but this is somewhat of a protest on my part against some of the excessive, compulsive oil changing I have seen on this forum. I switched to 10K OCI's 25 years ago when synthetic oil was still a "is it worth the extra money" proposition. (It was $3/quart back then).
The MG filter is dual stage with built in bypass filtering particles as small as 2 microns.
Again, time will tell. My current fill is M1 0W-20 AFE. Since I still have a few quarts of Mazda OE 0W-20 w/moly that has been my top-off oil. When I do the change at 30K I plan to use M1 0W-20 EP.
Time will tell, but this is somewhat of a protest on my part against some of the excessive, compulsive oil changing I have seen on this forum. I switched to 10K OCI's 25 years ago when synthetic oil was still a "is it worth the extra money" proposition. (It was $3/quart back then).
The MG filter is dual stage with built in bypass filtering particles as small as 2 microns.
Again, time will tell. My current fill is M1 0W-20 AFE. Since I still have a few quarts of Mazda OE 0W-20 w/moly that has been my top-off oil. When I do the change at 30K I plan to use M1 0W-20 EP.
Originally Posted By: DBMaster
I am not extending OCI like that, but I am using the microGreen filter and recommendations. .......
Thats the right idea. Its been proven in fleets for the last several years. For example, Oxnard, California city & police fleet uses those MG filters with poor-performing recycled-base-stock oils, not even using the better Mobil1 EP or Castrol Edge Ext or Amsoil SS like others do when going 30K miles between oil changes. Also, see this original old 100,000 mile run: LINK To 100,000mile Lincoln in the 70's.
I am not extending OCI like that, but I am using the microGreen filter and recommendations. .......
Thats the right idea. Its been proven in fleets for the last several years. For example, Oxnard, California city & police fleet uses those MG filters with poor-performing recycled-base-stock oils, not even using the better Mobil1 EP or Castrol Edge Ext or Amsoil SS like others do when going 30K miles between oil changes. Also, see this original old 100,000 mile run: LINK To 100,000mile Lincoln in the 70's.
Only time I would change my oil would be if you're engine is only running for less than 20 minutes at a time. Short trips, water & acid build-up are overwhelming.
I just saw an industrial pigment filter they said was good down to 1 micron. One could filter their oil once a year and put it back in to save resources.
I just saw an industrial pigment filter they said was good down to 1 micron. One could filter their oil once a year and put it back in to save resources.
Originally Posted By: DBMaster
I am not extending OCI like that, but I am using the microGreen filter and recommendations. First step is to change oil/filter using MG filter. My 2012 M3 Skyactiv takes 4.5 quarts. At 10K miles change only the filter and top off oil. I found that it takes half a quart to do that. At 20K miles do the same thing. At 30K change oil and filter and start the cycle over again. The $15 cost per filter is more than offset by the reduced use of oil. I was not looking to save money, actually. I am focused on reducing waste oil. The factory OCI is 7,500 miles. So far, looking into the fill hole (with LED flashlight since the valve cover is black plastic) reveals shiny silver parts without a hint of varnish or sludge at 35K miles.
Time will tell, but this is somewhat of a protest on my part against some of the excessive, compulsive oil changing I have seen on this forum. I switched to 10K OCI's 25 years ago when synthetic oil was still a "is it worth the extra money" proposition. (It was $3/quart back then).
The MG filter is dual stage with built in bypass filtering particles as small as 2 microns.
Again, time will tell. My current fill is M1 0W-20 AFE. Since I still have a few quarts of Mazda OE 0W-20 w/moly that has been my top-off oil. When I do the change at 30K I plan to use M1 0W-20 EP.
Well I think that sounds like a wonderful alternative. I applaud that.
I am not extending OCI like that, but I am using the microGreen filter and recommendations. First step is to change oil/filter using MG filter. My 2012 M3 Skyactiv takes 4.5 quarts. At 10K miles change only the filter and top off oil. I found that it takes half a quart to do that. At 20K miles do the same thing. At 30K change oil and filter and start the cycle over again. The $15 cost per filter is more than offset by the reduced use of oil. I was not looking to save money, actually. I am focused on reducing waste oil. The factory OCI is 7,500 miles. So far, looking into the fill hole (with LED flashlight since the valve cover is black plastic) reveals shiny silver parts without a hint of varnish or sludge at 35K miles.
Time will tell, but this is somewhat of a protest on my part against some of the excessive, compulsive oil changing I have seen on this forum. I switched to 10K OCI's 25 years ago when synthetic oil was still a "is it worth the extra money" proposition. (It was $3/quart back then).
The MG filter is dual stage with built in bypass filtering particles as small as 2 microns.
Again, time will tell. My current fill is M1 0W-20 AFE. Since I still have a few quarts of Mazda OE 0W-20 w/moly that has been my top-off oil. When I do the change at 30K I plan to use M1 0W-20 EP.
Well I think that sounds like a wonderful alternative. I applaud that.
Originally Posted By: stickybuns
Only time I would change my oil would be if you're engine is only running for less than 20 minutes at a time. Short trips, water & acid build-up are overwhelming.
Yeah, normally I would agree, but my test results have shown completely the opposite to be true. Most of my trips are 10 minutes or less, although sometimes I go 500 or more in one day.
Only time I would change my oil would be if you're engine is only running for less than 20 minutes at a time. Short trips, water & acid build-up are overwhelming.
Yeah, normally I would agree, but my test results have shown completely the opposite to be true. Most of my trips are 10 minutes or less, although sometimes I go 500 or more in one day.
Originally Posted By: Kuato
This is all quite interesting. I would be interested to see what the TBN is at 100k....or currently for that matter.
I believe there's WAAAAAY to much emphasis placed on TBN level and not enough placed on filtration. Too much TBNs have an effect of loosening up gunk and trashing motors. I see people try to switch to synthetic oil on an old motor, only to have the TBNs loosen up the gunk and kill the lifters.
This is all quite interesting. I would be interested to see what the TBN is at 100k....or currently for that matter.
I believe there's WAAAAAY to much emphasis placed on TBN level and not enough placed on filtration. Too much TBNs have an effect of loosening up gunk and trashing motors. I see people try to switch to synthetic oil on an old motor, only to have the TBNs loosen up the gunk and kill the lifters.
I actually began using truly extended OCI's in about 1993 on my 1989 Honda Accord. I was using M1 for 6-7K prior to that from the very first OC on that car. That is probably not a fair experiment since the A20A3 engine was known for its bulletproof tendencies. I became an Amsoil dealer in that year purely to buy their ATF at dealer pricing. Synthetic ATF was not easily accessible at retail in 1993. I felt that the synthetic oil they sold was overpriced so I never bought that.
I adopted the practice with all the cars my family owned and encouraged others to do the same. Again, since actual engine failures related to lubrication are rare nobody under my tutelage ever had an oil related issue. Anecdotal? You betcha!
I didn't use any special filters. I used anything and everything - and NEVER cut one open. Though, I was intrigued by the Amsoil bypass filter claims of 100K OCI's. I just did not want to install a bypass filter system on a car, though, I was aware that they had been used successfully on OTR trucks.
Enter the microGreen filter, which I learned about on this forum. Seems like a no-brainer to me. But, again, one of the few risk taking areas for me is car maintenance. It's especially low risk since I tend to keep cars beyond the point at which I fail to enjoy them. Any mechanical issues I have had have been totally unrelated to the engine or lubrication. It's the usual, expensive suspects - A/C, suspension, fuel injectors, CEL stuff (electronic parts).
This IS an oil web site, so why won't we try to do something outside the box like REALLY take advantage of the fact that synthetic oil - originally designed to the requirements of jet engines - rarely suffers breakdown in a car engine? If you can keep it clean enough and replenish the additives that are important why not use it to the extent of its properties?
My thoughts are that since oil changes are one of the few things any DIYers perform anymore the philosophy becomes, "More is better." It's the same thing underlying the fact that runoff from residential lawns contains more toxic chemicals than any agricultural field.
So, do your wallet, and local environment, a favor and try to use the oil you buy for a high price to the extent of it capabilities instead of throwing it away with most of its life left in it.
I adopted the practice with all the cars my family owned and encouraged others to do the same. Again, since actual engine failures related to lubrication are rare nobody under my tutelage ever had an oil related issue. Anecdotal? You betcha!
I didn't use any special filters. I used anything and everything - and NEVER cut one open. Though, I was intrigued by the Amsoil bypass filter claims of 100K OCI's. I just did not want to install a bypass filter system on a car, though, I was aware that they had been used successfully on OTR trucks.
Enter the microGreen filter, which I learned about on this forum. Seems like a no-brainer to me. But, again, one of the few risk taking areas for me is car maintenance. It's especially low risk since I tend to keep cars beyond the point at which I fail to enjoy them. Any mechanical issues I have had have been totally unrelated to the engine or lubrication. It's the usual, expensive suspects - A/C, suspension, fuel injectors, CEL stuff (electronic parts).
This IS an oil web site, so why won't we try to do something outside the box like REALLY take advantage of the fact that synthetic oil - originally designed to the requirements of jet engines - rarely suffers breakdown in a car engine? If you can keep it clean enough and replenish the additives that are important why not use it to the extent of its properties?
My thoughts are that since oil changes are one of the few things any DIYers perform anymore the philosophy becomes, "More is better." It's the same thing underlying the fact that runoff from residential lawns contains more toxic chemicals than any agricultural field.
So, do your wallet, and local environment, a favor and try to use the oil you buy for a high price to the extent of it capabilities instead of throwing it away with most of its life left in it.
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Originally Posted By: jsinton
Too much TBNs have an effect of loosening up gunk and trashing motors.
The objective should be to prevent the 'gunk' in the first place should it not? Many of the newer engines have VVT and 'gunk' is not something that I would want to have building up--if it is not there, then there is nothing to loosen and trash the motor.
Too much TBNs have an effect of loosening up gunk and trashing motors.
The objective should be to prevent the 'gunk' in the first place should it not? Many of the newer engines have VVT and 'gunk' is not something that I would want to have building up--if it is not there, then there is nothing to loosen and trash the motor.
Preventing gunk is fine, and TBNs are necessary. But way too many people seem to think MORE TBNs are the answer, when quite the opposite is true. There's a sweet spot there. The real answer is adequate TBNs in conjunction with excellent filtration.
I was looking forward to this.
Your engine is fine. TBN would be very helpful but the TAN from this UOA is far from critical meltdown. Unfortunately many more UOA's are need before an trend can be established.
Your engine is fine. TBN would be very helpful but the TAN from this UOA is far from critical meltdown. Unfortunately many more UOA's are need before an trend can be established.
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