How's VW reliability these days?

[hypervish]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
You already know that none of these cars will offer the reliabilty and low ownership costs of your Accord, so we can set that aside.
IMHO:

Lexus would be most reliable and least entertaining.

BMW would be most entertaining.

VW would be very entertaining in a Subaru sort of way, but would also offer an interior that would shame any Subie ever rolled out of the factory, and the interior is the part that you have to sit in and look at every day.
This car would also offer the best fuel economy, which doesn't matter now but will when gas hits four bucks again in eighteen or so months.

If I wanted driving fun, I'd buy either German car over the Toyota and I'd follow the boards to stay aware of what I could expect to have to fix when.
It would also be a good idea to find a good indie for whatever you buy. Won't matter so much with the Toyota, but it will with the VW or the BMW.


You've clearly never driven a Lexus IS

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: Olas
Properly maintained, VAG cars are just as reliable as any other but neglected they will fail. Proactive maintenance over reactive repairs stop most issues before they start, and, there is a measurable difference in fit, finish and overall build quality between vehicles out of Wolfsburg/Ingolstadt versus vehicles out of Mexico, Brazil or Tennessee.

Use this app to decode your VIN and find out where it was built. One of the main considerations (for me, if I was buying in NA) when buying VAG


But why do the CUSTOMERS have to deal with PROACTIVE MAINTENANCE when the more RELIABLE brands like US and Japanese based manufacturers don't have to?

What I can see from an engineer's perspective, is the Germans cut out safety margin when they design and manufacture the cars, so the customers have to throw parts and labors at it to compensate for that. It's not a problem if it is advertised honestly, but calling that as the "must be customers fault because of German engineering" is baloney.

And blaming Latin American assembly for the failures? Dude, VAG is the brand that profits from the outsourcing, they should man up and take responsibilities, instead of throwing their outsourced plants under the bus...


The Germans love over complicity. I think they actually have a term for it. I also think EU environmental regs regarding biodegradable components is partly to blame.

That said the E90 M3 has a relatively bullet proof NA race engine. The only problem is that any part with an "M" stamped on it comes with a premium price. The M3 is more race car than the OP's other choices.

 

[Merkava_4]

I was following a Lexus IS on my way home this afternoon. It had two little flush fitting square plugs in the back bumper; one on each side. What are they for?

 

[Nick1994]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
I was following a Lexus IS on my way home this afternoon. It had two little flush fitting square plugs in the back bumper; one on each side. What are they for?
Probaly backup sensors.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: hypervish
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
You already know that none of these cars will offer the reliabilty and low ownership costs of your Accord, so we can set that aside.
IMHO:

Lexus would be most reliable and least entertaining.

BMW would be most entertaining.

VW would be very entertaining in a Subaru sort of way, but would also offer an interior that would shame any Subie ever rolled out of the factory, and the interior is the part that you have to sit in and look at every day.
This car would also offer the best fuel economy, which doesn't matter now but will when gas hits four bucks again in eighteen or so months.

If I wanted driving fun, I'd buy either German car over the Toyota and I'd follow the boards to stay aware of what I could expect to have to fix when.
It would also be a good idea to find a good indie for whatever you buy. Won't matter so much with the Toyota, but it will with the VW or the BMW.


You've clearly never driven a Lexus IS


Actually, I have.
It's as perfect and as souless as you'd expect a RWD Camry to be.
A brief drive is one thing and ownership is another.
Other than our current low-cal BMW, we've had a VW, another BMW and four Benzes. All were very durable and reliable cars, except for the 733i, which had lots of little electrical problems, none of which stranded the car.
Nothing of Japanese heritage has the level of suspension development that you'll find in a German car, although some are quite good. Nothing Japanese matches the overall build quality and materials quality of a German car at a similar price point either.
You can figure that out the first time you slam a door shut.
I write this as someone who has also owned eight Hondas, three Subarus and a lone Toyota.

 

[hypervish]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: hypervish
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
You already know that none of these cars will offer the reliabilty and low ownership costs of your Accord, so we can set that aside.
IMHO:

Lexus would be most reliable and least entertaining.

BMW would be most entertaining.

VW would be very entertaining in a Subaru sort of way, but would also offer an interior that would shame any Subie ever rolled out of the factory, and the interior is the part that you have to sit in and look at every day.
This car would also offer the best fuel economy, which doesn't matter now but will when gas hits four bucks again in eighteen or so months.

If I wanted driving fun, I'd buy either German car over the Toyota and I'd follow the boards to stay aware of what I could expect to have to fix when.
It would also be a good idea to find a good indie for whatever you buy. Won't matter so much with the Toyota, but it will with the VW or the BMW.


You've clearly never driven a Lexus IS


Actually, I have.
It's as perfect and as souless as you'd expect a RWD Camry to be.
A brief drive is one thing and ownership is another.
Other than our current low-cal BMW, we've had a VW, another BMW and four Benzes. All were very durable and reliable cars, except for the 733i, which had lots of little electrical problems, none of which stranded the car.
Nothing of Japanese heritage has the level of suspension development that you'll find in a German car, although some are quite good. Nothing Japanese matches the overall build quality and materials quality of a German car at a similar price point either.
You can figure that out the first time you slam a door shut.
I write this as someone who has also owned eight Hondas, three Subarus and a lone Toyota.


We'll have to agree to disagree.

FYI, it's not even based off of the Camry. LOL

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: Olas
Properly maintained, VAG cars are just as reliable as any other but neglected they will fail. Proactive maintenance over reactive repairs stop most issues before they start, and, there is a measurable difference in fit, finish and overall build quality between vehicles out of Wolfsburg/Ingolstadt versus vehicles out of Mexico, Brazil or Tennessee.

Use this app to decode your VIN and find out where it was built. One of the main considerations (for me, if I was buying in NA) when buying VAG


But why do the CUSTOMERS have to deal with PROACTIVE MAINTENANCE when the more RELIABLE brands like US and Japanese based manufacturers don't have to?

What I can see from an engineer's perspective, is the Germans cut out safety margin when they design and manufacture the cars, so the customers have to throw parts and labors at it to compensate for that. It's not a problem if it is advertised honestly, but calling that as the "must be customers fault because of German engineering" is baloney.

And blaming Latin American assembly for the failures? Dude, VAG is the brand that profits from the outsourcing, they should man up and take responsibilities, instead of throwing their outsourced plants under the bus...


The Germans love over complicity. I think they actually have a term for it. I also think EU environmental regs regarding biodegradable components is partly to blame.


I did an install on an Audi Q5 and it occurred to me that German cars are designed the way they are to intentionally limit DIY repairs.

" Hans (or Dieter or Johann...etc) has spent many years training to be an Audi technician. Vhy vould you vant to steal his livelihood? Does he come to your werkshop und do your job?"

Had a little chuckle to myself and then put the huge plastic cowl cover inside by the heater to warm it up so it would flex enough to be reinstalled and not shatter in the cold. I don't really worry about plastic parts like that on Lexuses or Infinitis.

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Probaly backup sensors.


Interesting, I would've never thought of that. I thought they were covering up some tow hooks or something.

 

[fdcg27]

Doesn't have to be obviously based off the Camry platform to share many parts as well as design philosophy.
Outside of the big V-8 cars and the rare mid-engined specials, Lexus badged cars are largely Toyotas and always have been.

 

[Mykl]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Doesn't have to be obviously based off the Camry platform to share many parts as well as design philosophy.
Outside of the big V-8 cars and the rare mid-engined specials, Lexus badged cars are largely Toyotas and always have been.


That's not necessarily a bad thing. My Camry far exceeded my expectations after I fixed the blown struts. Toyota can build a good, capable car. So the statement that a Lexus is largely a Toyota doesn't take away from them.

 

[jimbrewer]

I have to admit that I've been tempted by what I see. Probably the horror stories are overblown. Still, I'd pass. There are so many cars out there with reasonable reliability and durability, why take the chance? Looking at the narratives (not statistics) on Truedelta is kind of instructive. idiosyncratic stuff(that isn't easily fixed) and cheap part type things. Servos and sensors winking out. Not show-stoppers, but these kinds of problems only get worse over time, no?

You are planning on making harder than average use of the car (track) and driving it for ten years. That's not VW. VW is for someone who wants a fun, stylish car and a cheap lease.

If VW were really interested in selling durable cars, they would build one, and then back it up with a good warranty, (or at least a cheap extended factory warranty). They don't. Why? Because they don't think the extra expense is worth it, if they can lease all day long with spiffy, if insubstantial cars. Its a very good plan for them, but not necessarily for you.

 

[Olas]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: Olas
Properly maintained, VAG cars are just as reliable as any other but neglected they will fail. Proactive maintenance over reactive repairs stop most issues before they start, and, there is a measurable difference in fit, finish and overall build quality between vehicles out of Wolfsburg/Ingolstadt versus vehicles out of Mexico, Brazil or Tennessee.

Use this app to decode your VIN and find out where it was built. One of the main considerations (for me, if I was buying in NA) when buying VAG


But why do the CUSTOMERS have to deal with PROACTIVE MAINTENANCE when the more RELIABLE brands like US and Japanese based manufacturers don't have to?

What I can see from an engineer's perspective, is the Germans cut out safety margin when they design and manufacture the cars, so the customers have to throw parts and labors at it to compensate for that. It's not a problem if it is advertised honestly, but calling that as the "must be customers fault because of German engineering" is baloney.

And blaming Latin American assembly for the failures? Dude, VAG is the brand that profits from the outsourcing, they should man up and take responsibilities, instead of throwing their outsourced plants under the bus...


It's not just VW, t applies to every car. If you wait for something to fail you have to fix the problem that might leave you stranded. If you change the part before it fails, (for example when it is starting to show wear) you don't break down and you don't get stranded.

And for the record, I'm not blaming anybody. I'm simply stating the easily observable fact of a markedly differ net level of fit, finish, quality and attention to detail between German built cars and others. Chattanooga is NOT latin America any more than portugal or Spain are...point is VWs from Germany are different enough to be another brand altogether. Drive both back to back and tell me I'm wrong..

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: Olas

And for the record, I'm not blaming anybody. I'm simply stating the easily observable fact of a markedly differ net level of fit, finish, quality and attention to detail between German built cars and others. Chattanooga is NOT latin America any more than portugal or Spain are...point is VWs from Germany are different enough to be another brand altogether. Drive both back to back and tell me I'm wrong..


Funny thing, when I was seriously considering a Fiesta ST(thankfully, no longer) I was monitoring one of the ST forums. That car is also made in Mexico. One Fiesta ST was delivered without the stability control defeat button, while another car had no underdash lights- the wiring leading to the lights had had their connectors cut off.

I always assumed those glitches were a concrete way for the Mexican workers to prove that they were every bit the equal of their UAW counterparts...

 

[Mykl]

Having seen a modern auto plant in action, how do things like that happen? Everything is scripted and automated to such a degree that it's hard to imagine that a plant in Germany would produce something of a noticeably higher quality than in Mexico assuming each plant received the same degree of engineering attention.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: Mykl
Having seen a modern auto plant in action, how do things like that happen? Everything is scripted and automated to such a degree that it's hard to imagine that a plant in Germany would produce something of a noticeably higher quality than in Mexico assuming each plant received the same degree of engineering attention.


That is true only if the workers follow their procedures to the letter. If there are no checks to verify their adherence and no way to find out who did it, you can have these types of problems happening. All it takes is a worker that has a bad day or a grudge against someone.

 

[MCompact]

When BMW Manufacturing opened the Greer plant they began by making 318i sedans so that their quality could be compared to the same cars being built in Germany. Only when the quality was identical did the plant start turning out the Z3 and later, the X5.

 

[jimbrewer]

Originally Posted By: Mykl
Having seen a modern auto plant in action, how do things like that happen? Everything is scripted and automated to such a degree that it's hard to imagine that a plant in Germany would produce something of a noticeably higher quality than in Mexico assuming each plant received the same degree of engineering attention.

The Mexican plants are Ford's best plants. Vw simply has a different business plan for us than for Europe. Some of their cars have mechanically cheaper design than for the EU cars. The assumption that they are trying to build better cars and that its a question of how well they have succeeded is probably misplaced. From their standpoint they are in the sweet spot.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: Mykl
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Doesn't have to be obviously based off the Camry platform to share many parts as well as design philosophy.
Outside of the big V-8 cars and the rare mid-engined specials, Lexus badged cars are largely Toyotas and always have been.


That's not necessarily a bad thing. My Camry far exceeded my expectations after I fixed the blown struts. Toyota can build a good, capable car. So the statement that a Lexus is largely a Toyota doesn't take away from them.


Which is why I wrote that this little RWD Lexus would be the most reliable of the three.
I don't think that anyone has any doubts about that.
VW is a big enough manufacturer to achieve great reliability and durability at low cost.
You have to wonder why they generally don't and Toyota generally does.

 

[HangFire]

Originally Posted By: Mykl
Having seen a modern auto plant in action, how do things like that happen? Everything is scripted and automated to such a degree that it's hard to imagine that a plant in Germany would produce something of a noticeably higher quality than in Mexico assuming each plant received the same degree of engineering attention.


I don't know about VW, but I drive a "world car", the Toyota Corolla. It has a lot of US made parts that differ from European Corollas. For example I don't have Bosch front brake calipers.

Swap out a hundred parts or so from different suppliers, and there's gotta be some quality difference, good, bad or indifferent.

 

[dwcopple]

Lexus, all day, every day.