Honda Civic - Broken Timing Belt

[ltslimjim]

Originally Posted By: addyguy
Wait a minute, wait a minute....

Back in 2010, you did a T-belt job on your 2004 Civic, and it failed in 16k miles, and then you paid to have it re-done?

Did you try and collect from the maker of the belt that failed?

If not....well, you've probably paid more for these two repairs, including the time and hassle, that the car is worth! Not to mention this last failure could have done damage that will shorten the engine life.

Junking the car after this timing belt failure would seem to make more sense...


I agree. What ever happens, try to have a trade-off and get rid of this car in favor of one that isn't sludge + nor has had a timing belt fail during operation.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Axe Man
I have noticed at high RPM a slight additional "kick in the rear" similar to opening up secondaries on a carb. This must be the that "VTEC-E" you mention?


After a certain low-speed RPM (around 2200-2300), the valvetrain acts like a conventional 4-valve valvetrain. What you may be feeling is a variable intake manifold switching modes or maybe the intake system hitting some sort of resonant frequency, giving a slight boost in power.

 

[MarkM66]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
Originally Posted By: addyguy
Wait a minute, wait a minute....

Back in 2010, you did a T-belt job on your 2004 Civic, and it failed in 16k miles, and then you paid to have it re-done?

Did you try and collect from the maker of the belt that failed?

If not....well, you've probably paid more for these two repairs, including the time and hassle, that the car is worth! Not to mention this last failure could have done damage that will shorten the engine life.

Junking the car after this timing belt failure would seem to make more sense...


I agree. What ever happens, try to have a trade-off and get rid of this car in favor of one that isn't sludge + nor has had a timing belt fail during operation.


Sludge? Did I miss something?

Junking the whole car for a failed timing belt? Wow, you guys like throwing money out the window?

 

[Quest]

never heard of a D17A1/A2 engine being sludge-prone.

Q.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: addyguy
Wait a minute, wait a minute....

Back in 2010, you did a T-belt job on your 2004 Civic, and it failed in 16k miles, and then you paid to have it re-done?

Did you try and collect from the maker of the belt that failed?

If not....well, you've probably paid more for these two repairs, including the time and hassle, that the car is worth! Not to mention this last failure could have done damage that will shorten the engine life.

Junking the car after this timing belt failure would seem to make more sense...


Yeh, because getting rid of a car with a known service history and replacing it with some used and abused junk makes that much more sense

Also, not everybody likes a new car payment, if that what you meant.

 

[ron917]

The OP's car is worth well over $5,000 in my area (private sale, KBB very good or better). Used car dealers want over $7,000. Definitely worth fixing.

 

[ltslimjim]

Originally Posted By: MarkM66
Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
Originally Posted By: addyguy
Wait a minute, wait a minute....

Back in 2010, you did a T-belt job on your 2004 Civic, and it failed in 16k miles, and then you paid to have it re-done?

Did you try and collect from the maker of the belt that failed?

If not....well, you've probably paid more for these two repairs, including the time and hassle, that the car is worth! Not to mention this last failure could have done damage that will shorten the engine life.

Junking the car after this timing belt failure would seem to make more sense...


I agree. What ever happens, try to have a trade-off and get rid of this car in favor of one that isn't sludge + nor has had a timing belt fail during operation.


Sludge? Did I miss something?

Junking the whole car for a failed timing belt? Wow, you guys like throwing money out the window?

You missed the context of what I was saying. Re-read. Get a car that doesn't have problem 'X' or 'Y'(like sludge or a timing belt failure)...

I was simply agreeing with the idea/possibility of making money off of this car in favor of another that didn't have this issue(after making sure other areas aren't a concern, like having to pay for a timing belt service on the next car).

Actually, getting money back for what was lost here.

Was not suggesting losing money at all.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: JOD
having had a tensioner fail, I'm with you on this one--I don't think this was a defective tensioner, I think it was an installation issue.


I also think it is likely an installation issue. Although I've only used AC Delco or Gates for my Honda / Acura I think these parts have been manufactured for so long that any large company will not know what they are doing.

I think the OP should send the damaged parts in to Dayco and ask them to either cough up the repair bill or justify the cause if it is installation error.

 

[Carnoobie]

Hey guys just doing some research on what i should do. I got back from another mechanics visit this afternoon and was told my timing belt tensioner is starting to go (the bearing at least) and to replace it. Its either that or my timing belt is loose due to the tensioner going out or long shot my water pump bearing going.

My timing belt and water pump were replaced in 2009 (32,000km ago) at a honda dealership with OEM parts but they never replaced the ttensioner cause they inspected it and said the bearing was still good. I called a few honda dealers here and according to all of them they generally dont replace tensioners when doing timing belts, only when the bearings are starting to go.

This noise is a light rattle sound (sounds just like a wheel bearing rattle) thats coming from my timing belt area when 1) cold starting the car in the morning, first 30secs its loud then dies out as car warms up 2) everytime i apply gas, whether its light or heavy. The rattle gets a bit louder with speed, but not much, generally it stays the same. But a mech heard it closely today and was almost certain its the bearing in the tensioner going cause even after you rev the engine and the rev is dying done, you can hear the rattle for a second after.

So my timing belt and water pump were replaced at 120,000km and i now have 152,000km. Was told the tensioner should last 2 timing belts but with this wheel bearing like rattle coming from the timing belt area i dont know if i can risk waiting till the next timing belt change to do the tensioner.

What you think i should do to tell forsure if its the tensioner or not? My mechs said they would have to take it apart and the cover so they can get to the timing belt. They said since im paying for their 3-4hrs labour for that, then i might as well just replace the tensioner while theyre at it otherwise im paying for labour for nothing.

They will also inspect the water pump bearing as well and the belt itself.

I would hate to have everything taken apart, pay for the labour, replace the tensioner only to find out it wasnt the tensioner.

They also said it could be my camshaft bearing as well making the noise.

I thought it was my valves at first but i had my valves readjusted last week and the sound is still there. But when this other mech adjusted my valves i notice he never adjusted my crankshaft pulley to top dead centre like in the manual says. Do you think that could be causing the noise? Since the crankshaft pulley is basically in the same area as the timing belt.

Someone please help me. I need to act quick on what to do. Mech said they can get to it this Saturday and right now im limiting my driving with this car until i get this fixed.

 

[MarkM66]

You mean the wheel didn't fail right before being inspected? Shame on it...

Listen to the mechanics.

Yeah, there is no true way to tell if the tensioner bearing is making noise without removing and inspecting.

And you don't have to have the motor at TDC to adjust the valve. You rotate it and look at the rockers to see when they are on the base of the cam.

 

[Carnoobie]

Originally Posted By: MarkM66
You mean the wheel didn't fail right before being inspected? Shame on it...

Listen to the mechanics.

Yeah, there is no true way to tell if the tensioner bearing is making noise without removing and inspecting.

And you don't have to have the motor at TDC to adjust the valve. You rotate it and look at the rockers to see when they are on the base of the cam.


The timing belt idler pulley, is there a bearing inside? Im thinking that could be it too.

Just wanna make sure i bring all parts to the job in case they need to be replaced so dont have to go back.

 

[MarkM66]

Originally Posted By: Carnoobie
Originally Posted By: MarkM66
You mean the wheel didn't fail right before being inspected? Shame on it...

Listen to the mechanics.

Yeah, there is no true way to tell if the tensioner bearing is making noise without removing and inspecting.

And you don't have to have the motor at TDC to adjust the valve. You rotate it and look at the rockers to see when they are on the base of the cam.


The timing belt idler pulley, is there a bearing inside? Im thinking that could be it too.

Just wanna make sure i bring all parts to the job in case they need to be replaced so dont have to go back.


It's just one unit;

 

[Carnoobie]

ok thanks. Got the part. Hope its just the tensioner and not water pump bearing. Do you know where i can find out how tight to set the timing belt back when its put back on? I do know for the tensioner, the bolt is suppose to be torqued to 33ft lbs.

What are the odds of OEM water pump bearings going early?

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Carnoobie
ok thanks. Got the part. Hope its just the tensioner and not water pump bearing. Do you know where i can find out how tight to set the timing belt back when its put back on? I do know for the tensioner, the bolt is suppose to be torqued to 33ft lbs.

What are the odds of OEM water pump bearings going early?


At your mileage if you didn't replace the pump last time, I'd replace it too. Usually the seal leak instead of bearing squeak.

 

[Carnoobie]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear

At your mileage if you didn't replace the pump last time, I'd replace it too. Usually the seal leak instead of bearing squeak.


The water pump was replaced last time with the timing belt, 32,000km ago. Just dumb honda dealer didnt replace the tensioner.

But my mech said the sound could be the bearing in the water pump could be going early, long shot IF its not the tensioner bearing going.

He told me to pick one up in case and i can return if the bearing in my current water pump is still good - which most likely is. Cause from what i read, the water pump bearings rarely go this early.

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: Carnoobie
This noise is a light rattle sound (sounds just like a wheel bearing rattle

What year and model of Honda?

Wheel bearings don't rattle, they howl or moan.

OE Honda timing-belt tensioners do usually last two belt-changes, or close to 200,000 miles. When they wear, it's the bearing, since nothing else can fail on that part. And when it wears, you'll get a whine, if any noise at all.

If your water pump was replaced (hold on, let me convert your number to something a civilized man can understand...) 20,000 miles ago, it's still shiny-new. No problems there.

Your description of the noise and its duration suggests an exhaust heat-shield. Simple problem, and easy to diagnose.

You need a better mechanic.

 

[Carnoobie]

Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: Carnoobie
This noise is a light rattle sound (sounds just like a wheel bearing rattle

What year and model of Honda?

Wheel bearings don't rattle, they howl or moan.

OE Honda timing-belt tensioners do usually last two belt-changes, or close to 200,000 miles. When they wear, it's the bearing, since nothing else can fail on that part. And when it wears, you'll get a whine, if any noise at all.

If your water pump was replaced (hold on, let me convert your number to something a civilized man can understand...) 20,000 miles ago, it's still shiny-new. No problems there.

Your description of the noise and its duration suggests an exhaust heat-shield. Simple problem, and easy to diagnose.

You need a better mechanic.


01 Civic SI (American SI so same as EX)

My mech did at first mention something about the sound possibly being from the exchaust and it rubbing or banging against something, but then he listened closely and put his ear right to the timing belt area and said its coming from the timing belt area. It sounds like a wheel bearing rattle, exactly like it, not a squeal or hiss but a clear rattle.

What should I do now?

I can take it to another mech tommorow but they said they would have to take the stuff apart to get inside the timing belt cover and thats 2hrs right there. This other mech said it could just be the timing belt being too loose and if its not the tensioner then no need to replace it. But my other mech says replace the tensioner no matter what since im paying 2hrs labour anyways.

What you think?

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: Carnoobie
My mech did at first mention something about the sound possibly being from the exchaust and it rubbing or banging against something, but then he listened closely and put his ear right to the timing belt area and said its coming from the timing belt area. It sounds like a wheel bearing rattle, exactly like it, not a squeal or hiss but a clear rattle.

What should I do now?

I can take it to another mech tommorow but they said they would have to take the stuff apart to get inside the timing belt cover and thats 2hrs right there. This other mech said it could just be the timing belt being too loose and if its not the tensioner then no need to replace it. But my other mech says replace the tensioner no matter what since im paying 2hrs labour anyways.

What you think?

Find a better mechanic. From my perspective it looks like you're getting incompetent advice all around.

WHEEL BEARINGS DO NOT RATTLE, THEY HOWL OR MOAN. They are under LOAD, as is the tensioner bearing. Rattles come from dry, unloaded bearings turning at speeds much lower than tensioner bearings turn at.

Timing belts do not suddenly get "loose" unless the tensioner bolt comes loose. And if that happens, the belt will slap around and make black powder everywhere, which is readily apparent when you pull the valve cover (1/2 hr labor). Then it will skip a tooth, and you wouldn't be able to ignore that even if you tried.

Have somebody competent simply use an index finger to tap all the exhaust parts all the way from manifold to muffler. A rattly shield will be very obvious.

 

[Carnoobie]

Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: Carnoobie
My mech did at first mention something about the sound possibly being from the exchaust and it rubbing or banging against something, but then he listened closely and put his ear right to the timing belt area and said its coming from the timing belt area. It sounds like a wheel bearing rattle, exactly like it, not a squeal or hiss but a clear rattle.

What should I do now?

I can take it to another mech tommorow but they said they would have to take the stuff apart to get inside the timing belt cover and thats 2hrs right there. This other mech said it could just be the timing belt being too loose and if its not the tensioner then no need to replace it. But my other mech says replace the tensioner no matter what since im paying 2hrs labour anyways.

What you think?

Find a better mechanic. From my perspective it looks like you're getting incompetent advice all around.

WHEEL BEARINGS DO NOT RATTLE, THEY HOWL OR MOAN. They are under LOAD, as is the tensioner bearing. Rattles come from dry, unloaded bearings turning at speeds much lower than tensioner bearings turn at.

Timing belts do not suddenly get "loose" unless the tensioner bolt comes loose. And if that happens, the belt will slap around and make black powder everywhere, which is readily apparent when you pull the valve cover (1/2 hr labor). Then it will skip a tooth, and you wouldn't be able to ignore that even if you tried.

Have somebody competent simply use an index finger to tap all the exhaust parts all the way from manifold to muffler. A rattly shield will be very obvious.



Ok thanks.

If I can find out where to tap for the exchaust parts i can definitely do that myself.

Always thought wheel bearings rattle like marbles in a can.

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: Carnoobie
If I can find out where to tap for the exchaust parts i can definitely do that myself.

Your exhaust system has many light sheet-metal pieces bolted to the pipes in various places. These rust at their fasteners, and then they get loose.

Visual inspection of the exhaust will readily reveal the location of the sheet-metal shields. Many are under the car, so the vehicle needs to, at least, be on jack stands so you can crawl underneath to check. In some places--like on the exhaust manifold and the catalytic converter--there are TWO shields, one on either side.

If there are for certain no loose shields, THEN you start looking for other causes of the rattle.