Honda Civic - Broken Timing Belt
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Originally Posted By: Tegger
Most aftermarket parts are of substantially lower quality than OE for the simple reasons that
1) they tooled up for tiny quantities compared to the production OE runs, which means they had a lot smaller budget for tooling, development, and materials.
2) they needed to come in at a much lower price point to establish a competitive position relative to OE.
OE lasts longest and fits best.
With very few exceptions, I agree that OE parts are generally of better quality. This isn't always the case, especially with "generic commodities" like filters and tires. The reason for that is tied-in with your first point above...these items often fit a wide variety of applications so their user/installed base is much greater...so they CAN be price-competitive while still offering good quality.
For "mission critical" components, like timing belts and tensioners, I do believe I would stick with OEM. Dayco is a fine company which generally makes fine products, but I don't get the same warm-fuzzy feeling when using aftermarket stuff.
I always thought the little ACDelco decals on the air cleaners of older GM cars were cool. "Keep your GM all GM with ACDelco parts."
Most aftermarket parts are of substantially lower quality than OE for the simple reasons that
1) they tooled up for tiny quantities compared to the production OE runs, which means they had a lot smaller budget for tooling, development, and materials.
2) they needed to come in at a much lower price point to establish a competitive position relative to OE.
OE lasts longest and fits best.
With very few exceptions, I agree that OE parts are generally of better quality. This isn't always the case, especially with "generic commodities" like filters and tires. The reason for that is tied-in with your first point above...these items often fit a wide variety of applications so their user/installed base is much greater...so they CAN be price-competitive while still offering good quality.
For "mission critical" components, like timing belts and tensioners, I do believe I would stick with OEM. Dayco is a fine company which generally makes fine products, but I don't get the same warm-fuzzy feeling when using aftermarket stuff.
I always thought the little ACDelco decals on the air cleaners of older GM cars were cool. "Keep your GM all GM with ACDelco parts."
D17 series (7th gen civic, 1.7L), I've come across numerous sub-par parts for timing belt kit (still in my possession a full box/set of T-belt kit from Dayco, with the chinese made idler tensioner bearing within.
I ended up cutting to the chase and purchase all OE Honda genuine parts (water pump, idler tensioner bearing with spring, revised holddown bolt for the bearing, etc.) the only exception to the rule would be the T-belt, which I went for Gates anyways.
Been doing Hondas T-belts on-n-off since the early 90s and never have a parts failure so far (provided that the original owner agreed to pursuing all Honda OE parts.I did shy away from a couple of jobs which the owner discounted the parts by using reman fanco water pumps, china bearings, etc...)
Q.
I ended up cutting to the chase and purchase all OE Honda genuine parts (water pump, idler tensioner bearing with spring, revised holddown bolt for the bearing, etc.) the only exception to the rule would be the T-belt, which I went for Gates anyways.
Been doing Hondas T-belts on-n-off since the early 90s and never have a parts failure so far (provided that the original owner agreed to pursuing all Honda OE parts.I did shy away from a couple of jobs which the owner discounted the parts by using reman fanco water pumps, china bearings, etc...)
Q.
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Does the tensioner still spin freely?
Yes, there is no roughness in the bearing. Spins freely.
Does the tensioner still spin freely?
Yes, there is no roughness in the bearing. Spins freely.
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: Axe Man
But I can say with certainty that it does not have the VTEC feature.
If it's a D17A6, it should have VTEC, but it's not the "performance" VTEC that most are familiar with. It's often called VTEC-E, or "economy" VTEC. When under a certain RPM (often around 2200 rpm) and engine load, four of the eight intake valves stay almost closed. Not quite completely closed...they do crack open...but for the most part they stay closed. The engine operates primarily on the four intake valves for better port velocity to maximize low-rpm output. Above a certain load and/or engine speed threshold, the VTEC mechanism slides a pin connecting the rocker arms of both intake valves on each cylinder; at this point, all eight intake valves operate off the large cam lobe, and you have a "conventional" 16-valve engine. The larger lobe can be made slightly "racy" for the engine size because only one of the intake valves is opening at slower engine speeds so you avoid the issues associated with a high-flowing head at slow engine speeds.
The result is nothing spectacular, but for the era and engine size it does pretty good. Some guys fashion up a "VTEC light" to show when the engine is effectively in 12-valve mode, so they can drive to that mode to maximize economy. It's hard, if not impossible, to feel the transition between 12-valve mode and 16-valve mode, so the light can be useful if that's your thing.
Glad you got it back on the road.
Thanks for the info. Apparently the shop was also confused by this which resulted in the wrong intake gasket.
I have noticed at high RPM a slight additional "kick in the rear" similar to opening up secondaries on a carb. This must be the that "VTEC-E" you mention?
Originally Posted By: Axe Man
But I can say with certainty that it does not have the VTEC feature.
If it's a D17A6, it should have VTEC, but it's not the "performance" VTEC that most are familiar with. It's often called VTEC-E, or "economy" VTEC. When under a certain RPM (often around 2200 rpm) and engine load, four of the eight intake valves stay almost closed. Not quite completely closed...they do crack open...but for the most part they stay closed. The engine operates primarily on the four intake valves for better port velocity to maximize low-rpm output. Above a certain load and/or engine speed threshold, the VTEC mechanism slides a pin connecting the rocker arms of both intake valves on each cylinder; at this point, all eight intake valves operate off the large cam lobe, and you have a "conventional" 16-valve engine. The larger lobe can be made slightly "racy" for the engine size because only one of the intake valves is opening at slower engine speeds so you avoid the issues associated with a high-flowing head at slow engine speeds.
The result is nothing spectacular, but for the era and engine size it does pretty good. Some guys fashion up a "VTEC light" to show when the engine is effectively in 12-valve mode, so they can drive to that mode to maximize economy. It's hard, if not impossible, to feel the transition between 12-valve mode and 16-valve mode, so the light can be useful if that's your thing.
Glad you got it back on the road.
Thanks for the info. Apparently the shop was also confused by this which resulted in the wrong intake gasket.
I have noticed at high RPM a slight additional "kick in the rear" similar to opening up secondaries on a carb. This must be the that "VTEC-E" you mention?
When I had the timing belt done on my Subaru, everything was OEM, period. I didn't care how much extra cost was involved.
Even spending $500 for a T-belt job at the current dealer price/charge is money well spent. With a free loaner car its a win-win situation. Luckily the pistons weren't damaged or worse and the engine was at a very low RPM. I can break 45 MPG in my dad's Civic VP.
Originally Posted By: Axe Man
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Does the tensioner still spin freely?
Yes, there is no roughness in the bearing. Spins freely.
Then the culprit is not the tensioner pulley. The spring is under tension when installed, so that's unlikely to be the culprit either.
However, it is possible to mis-assemble the tensioner assembly, and it's possible the tensioner bolt was improperly torqued the last time it was touched. It's also possible the belt was installed too tightly.
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Does the tensioner still spin freely?
Yes, there is no roughness in the bearing. Spins freely.
Then the culprit is not the tensioner pulley. The spring is under tension when installed, so that's unlikely to be the culprit either.
However, it is possible to mis-assemble the tensioner assembly, and it's possible the tensioner bolt was improperly torqued the last time it was touched. It's also possible the belt was installed too tightly.
I just did the timing belt/h20 pump in my 03 civic with a Dayco brand belt & tensioner.
Fingers crossed!
Fingers crossed!
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: Axe Man
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Does the tensioner still spin freely?
Yes, there is no roughness in the bearing. Spins freely.
Then the culprit is not the tensioner pulley. The spring is under tension when installed, so that's unlikely to be the culprit either.
However, it is possible to mis-assemble the tensioner assembly, and it's possible the tensioner bolt was improperly torqued the last time it was touched. It's also possible the belt was installed too tightly.
I'm surprised that the Honda dealer actually installed the after market tensioner!
The difficult part is that if the OP would have gone with 100% OEM and it failed at 16k or so they most certainly have warrantied the job...as that is catastrophic failure that should have absolutely not occurred.
Lesson learned when the part is critical and its failure could cause a lot of collateral damage like in this case..ALWAYS use OEM parts.
I doubt the Honda dealer will warranty the failure just because of that aftermarket part.
Originally Posted By: Axe Man
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Does the tensioner still spin freely?
Yes, there is no roughness in the bearing. Spins freely.
Then the culprit is not the tensioner pulley. The spring is under tension when installed, so that's unlikely to be the culprit either.
However, it is possible to mis-assemble the tensioner assembly, and it's possible the tensioner bolt was improperly torqued the last time it was touched. It's also possible the belt was installed too tightly.
I'm surprised that the Honda dealer actually installed the after market tensioner!
The difficult part is that if the OP would have gone with 100% OEM and it failed at 16k or so they most certainly have warrantied the job...as that is catastrophic failure that should have absolutely not occurred.
Lesson learned when the part is critical and its failure could cause a lot of collateral damage like in this case..ALWAYS use OEM parts.
I doubt the Honda dealer will warranty the failure just because of that aftermarket part.
Originally Posted By: Vikas
OP had to pay for this repair, right? Or did the original shop covered it? I would be shocked if that were the case.
Yes, I paid for the repair.
OP had to pay for this repair, right? Or did the original shop covered it? I would be shocked if that were the case.
Yes, I paid for the repair.
Originally Posted By: 91344George
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: Axe Man
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Does the tensioner still spin freely?
Yes, there is no roughness in the bearing. Spins freely.
Then the culprit is not the tensioner pulley. The spring is under tension when installed, so that's unlikely to be the culprit either.
However, it is possible to mis-assemble the tensioner assembly, and it's possible the tensioner bolt was improperly torqued the last time it was touched. It's also possible the belt was installed too tightly.
I'm surprised that the Honda dealer actually installed the after market tensioner!
The difficult part is that if the OP would have gone with 100% OEM and it failed at 16k or so they most certainly have warrantied the job...as that is catastrophic failure that should have absolutely not occurred.
Lesson learned when the part is critical and its failure could cause a lot of collateral damage like in this case..ALWAYS use OEM parts.
I doubt the Honda dealer will warranty the failure just because of that aftermarket part.
The original belt change plus this recent repair were performed by independent shops, not a Honda dealer.
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: Axe Man
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Does the tensioner still spin freely?
Yes, there is no roughness in the bearing. Spins freely.
Then the culprit is not the tensioner pulley. The spring is under tension when installed, so that's unlikely to be the culprit either.
However, it is possible to mis-assemble the tensioner assembly, and it's possible the tensioner bolt was improperly torqued the last time it was touched. It's also possible the belt was installed too tightly.
I'm surprised that the Honda dealer actually installed the after market tensioner!
The difficult part is that if the OP would have gone with 100% OEM and it failed at 16k or so they most certainly have warrantied the job...as that is catastrophic failure that should have absolutely not occurred.
Lesson learned when the part is critical and its failure could cause a lot of collateral damage like in this case..ALWAYS use OEM parts.
I doubt the Honda dealer will warranty the failure just because of that aftermarket part.
The original belt change plus this recent repair were performed by independent shops, not a Honda dealer.
Fwiw, when the timing belt was done on our 01 Civic (~108k), tensioner was just inspected, not replaced. Now ~165k. Will make sure OEM tensioner is used when it is replaced.
Sorry for your issue, tough luck.
Sorry for your issue, tough luck.
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Fwiw, when the timing belt was done on our 01 Civic (~108k), tensioner was just inspected, not replaced.
OE Honda tensioners normally go two belts before getting seriously loose. That assumes you're staying within the specified time/mileage limits.
Fwiw, when the timing belt was done on our 01 Civic (~108k), tensioner was just inspected, not replaced.
OE Honda tensioners normally go two belts before getting seriously loose. That assumes you're staying within the specified time/mileage limits.
Originally Posted By: Axe Man
The original belt change plus this recent repair were performed by independent shops, not a Honda dealer.
When I study the belt picture more carefully, it sure looks like the belt was too tight. Did you ever hear any whirring noises coming from the belt area?
The original belt change plus this recent repair were performed by independent shops, not a Honda dealer.
When I study the belt picture more carefully, it sure looks like the belt was too tight. Did you ever hear any whirring noises coming from the belt area?
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: Axe Man
The original belt change plus this recent repair were performed by independent shops, not a Honda dealer.
When I study the belt picture more carefully, it sure looks like the belt was too tight. Did you ever hear any whirring noises coming from the belt area?
having had a tensioner fail, I'm with you on this one--I don't think this was a defective tensioner, I think it was an installation issue.
Originally Posted By: Axe Man
The original belt change plus this recent repair were performed by independent shops, not a Honda dealer.
When I study the belt picture more carefully, it sure looks like the belt was too tight. Did you ever hear any whirring noises coming from the belt area?
having had a tensioner fail, I'm with you on this one--I don't think this was a defective tensioner, I think it was an installation issue.
Wait a minute, wait a minute....
Back in 2010, you did a T-belt job on your 2004 Civic, and it failed in 16k miles, and then you paid to have it re-done?
Did you try and collect from the maker of the belt that failed?
If not....well, you've probably paid more for these two repairs, including the time and hassle, that the car is worth! Not to mention this last failure could have done damage that will shorten the engine life.
Junking the car after this timing belt failure would seem to make more sense...
Back in 2010, you did a T-belt job on your 2004 Civic, and it failed in 16k miles, and then you paid to have it re-done?
Did you try and collect from the maker of the belt that failed?
If not....well, you've probably paid more for these two repairs, including the time and hassle, that the car is worth! Not to mention this last failure could have done damage that will shorten the engine life.
Junking the car after this timing belt failure would seem to make more sense...
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