I work for an ambulance service that is using 2012 Ford V-10's. Let me say that we are not using 5w20! Those ambulances are really driven hard. Each and every one of them uses oil. The shop supervisor's opinion is that they are work trucks, they are driven hard, and they are going to use oil. We also run a few gasoline Chevy's (never again) and Chevy and Ford diesels in the older rigs. Yep, they all need oil added occasionally and they are well maintained.
Here I go again.New ford truck burning 5w20 oil.
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Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
My 2012 Toyota 4Runner manual says up to 1.1qts/600 miles consumption is considered normal. I've decided that "normal" for automakers means they don't know how or want to fix it. That's frightening.
Luckily, my vehicle has not consumed any oil after 8400 miles. Maybe changing the oil at 600, 2000, and 5000 miles has helped with good ring seal.
WOW! Are you sure it says a quart in 600 miles?? Some car and small truck engines list 1 in 1000, but 1 in 600 is one heck of an oil burn.
Every engine has a different initial service schedule recommended and the manufacturers recommended initial OCI is important for bedding in, also some engines use a factory fill oil that is rather different, with high levels of Zinc and Moly. They do cause a minor amount of exhaust system contamination (The Zinc might be too high) when in use, so a factory fill oil is not good for later OCI's.
Some of the top full synthetics are used as factory fill without a short OCI. One of the other threads listed an example from VW, where the first OCI was at 30K km.
I wonder what some warranties say about oil leaks, rather than oil consumption, as I was looking at a car today that was only 2 years old but has a fairly bad oil leak.
My 2012 Toyota 4Runner manual says up to 1.1qts/600 miles consumption is considered normal. I've decided that "normal" for automakers means they don't know how or want to fix it. That's frightening.
Luckily, my vehicle has not consumed any oil after 8400 miles. Maybe changing the oil at 600, 2000, and 5000 miles has helped with good ring seal.
WOW! Are you sure it says a quart in 600 miles?? Some car and small truck engines list 1 in 1000, but 1 in 600 is one heck of an oil burn.
Every engine has a different initial service schedule recommended and the manufacturers recommended initial OCI is important for bedding in, also some engines use a factory fill oil that is rather different, with high levels of Zinc and Moly. They do cause a minor amount of exhaust system contamination (The Zinc might be too high) when in use, so a factory fill oil is not good for later OCI's.
Some of the top full synthetics are used as factory fill without a short OCI. One of the other threads listed an example from VW, where the first OCI was at 30K km.
I wonder what some warranties say about oil leaks, rather than oil consumption, as I was looking at a car today that was only 2 years old but has a fairly bad oil leak.
Originally Posted By: gunner3773
I work for an ambulance service that is using 2012 Ford V-10's. Let me say that we are not using 5w20! Those ambulances are really driven hard. Each and every one of them uses oil. The shop supervisor's opinion is that they are work trucks, they are driven hard, and they are going to use oil. We also run a few gasoline Chevy's (never again) and Chevy and Ford diesels in the older rigs. Yep, they all need oil added occasionally and they are well maintained.
Which oil are you using??? M1 or Edge 0/40???
There is a doctors government Audi A6 parked near my house that is on emergency call some nights and it has a big sump oil heater that warms the whole block plugged in so if there is some road accident he can floor the accelerator without any cold start wear issues.
I work for an ambulance service that is using 2012 Ford V-10's. Let me say that we are not using 5w20! Those ambulances are really driven hard. Each and every one of them uses oil. The shop supervisor's opinion is that they are work trucks, they are driven hard, and they are going to use oil. We also run a few gasoline Chevy's (never again) and Chevy and Ford diesels in the older rigs. Yep, they all need oil added occasionally and they are well maintained.
Which oil are you using??? M1 or Edge 0/40???
There is a doctors government Audi A6 parked near my house that is on emergency call some nights and it has a big sump oil heater that warms the whole block plugged in so if there is some road accident he can floor the accelerator without any cold start wear issues.
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Originally Posted By: skyship
Everything gets subject to back specing to save money if it lasts too long.
Using this logic, if the engine was designed for 5w20 (which it was), then what are they going to back-spec it to, 0w5? Come on man....
Quote:
If you ask a top R&D engineer that works for Ford he will probably tell you that if you push the engine hard it should use a full synthetic 5/40.
Then why don't they suggest that grade in motorhomes where they are not subject to CAFE?
Quote:
Just check what Ford in the UK or Germany use for engine oil for exactly the same engine (The UK page of Mobil or the US page of Liqui Moly work best) to see if it was designed from scratch to use cheap dinoblend 5/20.
Have you tried to source a vehicle with the 6.8L V10 outside of North America? I think you will discover that it isn't sold in many places abroad. A vehicle with it fitted doesn't show under the German Mobil site for example, you have to choose the Ford (US) list, which just tells you to use what the manufacturer recommends.
We are talking about an extremely large, American engine that likely has extremely limited use outside of the North American market. Considering that, what do you think the odds are that the engine was "designed for" European lubricants and then "CAFE spec'd" for 5w20 in North America?
But then I've made many references to the design of the Modular and its oiling system in the past that you seem to ignore.... Do you even know where the Modular engines are made?
Quote:
In most cases the only forward spec work has been done by changing all the advertising and manuals printed in the US to show the oil required by the CAFE bean counters.
Do you have ANY proof of this, or is this just something you've extracted from your posterior to bolster your position in this thread?
Quote:
Ford can't even afford to use the best 0/20 fully synthetic that will stay in grade longer as it kills the dealers profit margin.
Another fine baseless accusation.. Ford can't afford 0w20.... Right. But they appear to be affording 5w50 just fine, strange how that works.....
Quote:
Even if they did quite of few of their own dealers would swap labels on the bulk oil drums and put the cheap stuff in.
And you have proof of this? I somehow doubt it....
Quote:
Money is real tight these days and even in Germany we see cases of Iffy lubes and dealers using GTX 10/40 or 5/30 when the book and bill say Edge only.
So because you say this is the case in Germany (which I'll wait for Trav to confirm, sorry if that offends you) that this automatically makes it the case for North American Ford dealers?
Quote:
A Blackstones UOA won't show the difference in an obvious manner between the two oils as the add packs look similar from the two 5/30's, it takes a full chemical analysis to prove the wrong oil has been used.
Given the average OCI length in North America, this isn't an issue. Ford doesn't have any "extended drain" specs so this point is moot.
Everything gets subject to back specing to save money if it lasts too long.
Using this logic, if the engine was designed for 5w20 (which it was), then what are they going to back-spec it to, 0w5? Come on man....
Quote:
If you ask a top R&D engineer that works for Ford he will probably tell you that if you push the engine hard it should use a full synthetic 5/40.
Then why don't they suggest that grade in motorhomes where they are not subject to CAFE?
Quote:
Just check what Ford in the UK or Germany use for engine oil for exactly the same engine (The UK page of Mobil or the US page of Liqui Moly work best) to see if it was designed from scratch to use cheap dinoblend 5/20.
Have you tried to source a vehicle with the 6.8L V10 outside of North America? I think you will discover that it isn't sold in many places abroad. A vehicle with it fitted doesn't show under the German Mobil site for example, you have to choose the Ford (US) list, which just tells you to use what the manufacturer recommends.
We are talking about an extremely large, American engine that likely has extremely limited use outside of the North American market. Considering that, what do you think the odds are that the engine was "designed for" European lubricants and then "CAFE spec'd" for 5w20 in North America?
But then I've made many references to the design of the Modular and its oiling system in the past that you seem to ignore.... Do you even know where the Modular engines are made?
Quote:
In most cases the only forward spec work has been done by changing all the advertising and manuals printed in the US to show the oil required by the CAFE bean counters.
Do you have ANY proof of this, or is this just something you've extracted from your posterior to bolster your position in this thread?
Quote:
Ford can't even afford to use the best 0/20 fully synthetic that will stay in grade longer as it kills the dealers profit margin.
Another fine baseless accusation.. Ford can't afford 0w20.... Right. But they appear to be affording 5w50 just fine, strange how that works.....
Quote:
Even if they did quite of few of their own dealers would swap labels on the bulk oil drums and put the cheap stuff in.
And you have proof of this? I somehow doubt it....
Quote:
Money is real tight these days and even in Germany we see cases of Iffy lubes and dealers using GTX 10/40 or 5/30 when the book and bill say Edge only.
So because you say this is the case in Germany (which I'll wait for Trav to confirm, sorry if that offends you) that this automatically makes it the case for North American Ford dealers?
Quote:
A Blackstones UOA won't show the difference in an obvious manner between the two oils as the add packs look similar from the two 5/30's, it takes a full chemical analysis to prove the wrong oil has been used.
Given the average OCI length in North America, this isn't an issue. Ford doesn't have any "extended drain" specs so this point is moot.
Geez... the engine used a quart of oil in it's first 1400 miles and half of BITOG is Hershey-Squirting. Gad Zukes, people!
It's more than likely oil use will settle down on it's own. If it doesn't, then it will either be fixed by Ford (after going thru Ford's current oil consumption testing regimen, whatever it is these days) or the owner will have to make regular checks to keep the engine in one piece. Not too many years ago, regularly checking the oil and adding some was part and parcel of motor vehicle ownership. Welcome back to the thrilling days of yesteryear
Heavier oil isn't always a fix, either. Oil consumption is a lot more complex than just viscosity. In an interesting turn, my own Ford modular has consumed more 10W30 than it did 5W20... not that it was much in either case.
It's more than likely oil use will settle down on it's own. If it doesn't, then it will either be fixed by Ford (after going thru Ford's current oil consumption testing regimen, whatever it is these days) or the owner will have to make regular checks to keep the engine in one piece. Not too many years ago, regularly checking the oil and adding some was part and parcel of motor vehicle ownership. Welcome back to the thrilling days of yesteryear
Heavier oil isn't always a fix, either. Oil consumption is a lot more complex than just viscosity. In an interesting turn, my own Ford modular has consumed more 10W30 than it did 5W20... not that it was much in either case.
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Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Geez... the engine used a quart of oil in it's first 1400 miles and half of BITOG is Hershey-Squirting. Gad Zukes, people!
It's more than likely oil use will settle down on it's own. If it doesn't, then it will either be fixed by Ford (after going thru Ford's current oil consumption testing regimen, whatever it is these days) or the owner will have to make regular checks to keep the engine in one piece. Not too many years ago, regularly checking the oil and adding some was part and parcel of motor vehicle ownership. Welcome back to the thrilling days of yesteryear
Heavier oil isn't always a fix, either. Oil consumption is a lot more complex than just viscosity. In an interesting turn, my own Ford modular has consumed more 10W30 than it did 5W20... not that it was much in either case.
Stop it Jim! Don't be bringing logic and common sense into this thread!
Geez... the engine used a quart of oil in it's first 1400 miles and half of BITOG is Hershey-Squirting. Gad Zukes, people!
It's more than likely oil use will settle down on it's own. If it doesn't, then it will either be fixed by Ford (after going thru Ford's current oil consumption testing regimen, whatever it is these days) or the owner will have to make regular checks to keep the engine in one piece. Not too many years ago, regularly checking the oil and adding some was part and parcel of motor vehicle ownership. Welcome back to the thrilling days of yesteryear
Heavier oil isn't always a fix, either. Oil consumption is a lot more complex than just viscosity. In an interesting turn, my own Ford modular has consumed more 10W30 than it did 5W20... not that it was much in either case.
Stop it Jim! Don't be bringing logic and common sense into this thread!
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Geez... the engine used a quart of oil in it's first 1400 miles and half of BITOG is Hershey-Squirting. Gad Zukes, people!
It's more than likely oil use will settle down on it's own. If it doesn't, then it will either be fixed by Ford (after going thru Ford's current oil consumption testing regimen, whatever it is these days) or the owner will have to make regular checks to keep the engine in one piece. Not too many years ago, regularly checking the oil and adding some was part and parcel of motor vehicle ownership. Welcome back to the thrilling days of yesteryear
Heavier oil isn't always a fix, either. Oil consumption is a lot more complex than just viscosity. In an interesting turn, my own Ford modular has consumed more 10W30 than it did 5W20... not that it was much in either case.
Stop it Jim! Don't be bringing logic and common sense into this thread!
Yeah, no kidding....give the engine a chance to break-in, and the see where you're at...
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Geez... the engine used a quart of oil in it's first 1400 miles and half of BITOG is Hershey-Squirting. Gad Zukes, people!
It's more than likely oil use will settle down on it's own. If it doesn't, then it will either be fixed by Ford (after going thru Ford's current oil consumption testing regimen, whatever it is these days) or the owner will have to make regular checks to keep the engine in one piece. Not too many years ago, regularly checking the oil and adding some was part and parcel of motor vehicle ownership. Welcome back to the thrilling days of yesteryear
Heavier oil isn't always a fix, either. Oil consumption is a lot more complex than just viscosity. In an interesting turn, my own Ford modular has consumed more 10W30 than it did 5W20... not that it was much in either case.
Stop it Jim! Don't be bringing logic and common sense into this thread!
Yeah, no kidding....give the engine a chance to break-in, and the see where you're at...
Originally Posted By: skyship
Money is real tight these days and even in Germany we see cases of Iffy lubes and dealers using GTX 10/40 or 5/30 when the book and bill say Edge only
The German economy is doing okay, money isn't that tight unless your unemployed.
What your talking about is outright fraud. Now we are supposed to believe that the majority of German lube services are defrauding (a serious crime) the public as normal business practice? As a rule German courts tend punish consumer fraud severely.
I am sure there are some black sheep but they would be the exception not the rule.
Like anywhere else legit business try to play it straight if they want to stay in business.
You need to stop this nonsense, really. The whoppers keep getting bigger with every post.
In a previous post you said..
Originally Posted By: skyship
German professional engineers always follow what the good book says and the exact approvals
When talking about German dealers. You cant even keep up with your own stories for cripes sake.
Money is real tight these days and even in Germany we see cases of Iffy lubes and dealers using GTX 10/40 or 5/30 when the book and bill say Edge only
The German economy is doing okay, money isn't that tight unless your unemployed.
What your talking about is outright fraud. Now we are supposed to believe that the majority of German lube services are defrauding (a serious crime) the public as normal business practice? As a rule German courts tend punish consumer fraud severely.
I am sure there are some black sheep but they would be the exception not the rule.
Like anywhere else legit business try to play it straight if they want to stay in business.
You need to stop this nonsense, really. The whoppers keep getting bigger with every post.
In a previous post you said..
Originally Posted By: skyship
German professional engineers always follow what the good book says and the exact approvals
When talking about German dealers. You cant even keep up with your own stories for cripes sake.
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$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: skyship
Money is real tight these days and even in Germany we see cases of Iffy lubes and dealers using GTX 10/40 or 5/30 when the book and bill say Edge only
The German economy is doing okay, money isn't that tight unless your unemployed.
What your talking about is outright fraud. Now we are supposed to believe that the majority of German lube services are defrauding (a serious crime) the public as normal business practice? As a rule German courts tend punish consumer fraud severely.
I am sure there are some black sheep but they would be the exception not the rule.
Like anywhere else legit business try to play it straight if they want to stay in business.
You need to stop this nonsense, really. The whoppers keep getting bigger with every post.
In a previous post you said..
Originally Posted By: skyship
German professional engineers always follow what the good book says and the exact approvals
When talking about German dealers. You cant even keep up with your own stories for cripes sake.
Wait, Trav, are you saying German dealers and oil change places DON'T regularly swap the appropriate lube for an application with something inferior because "money is tight"? But but, skyship said they do!
Originally Posted By: skyship
Money is real tight these days and even in Germany we see cases of Iffy lubes and dealers using GTX 10/40 or 5/30 when the book and bill say Edge only
The German economy is doing okay, money isn't that tight unless your unemployed.
What your talking about is outright fraud. Now we are supposed to believe that the majority of German lube services are defrauding (a serious crime) the public as normal business practice? As a rule German courts tend punish consumer fraud severely.
I am sure there are some black sheep but they would be the exception not the rule.
Like anywhere else legit business try to play it straight if they want to stay in business.
You need to stop this nonsense, really. The whoppers keep getting bigger with every post.
In a previous post you said..
Originally Posted By: skyship
German professional engineers always follow what the good book says and the exact approvals
When talking about German dealers. You cant even keep up with your own stories for cripes sake.
Wait, Trav, are you saying German dealers and oil change places DON'T regularly swap the appropriate lube for an application with something inferior because "money is tight"? But but, skyship said they do!
Skyship's posts are becoming more absurd by the day.
First it's liqui-moly and their engine flush causing a runaway,then it's dealers swapping labels(please enlighten us skyship with the names of these dealers defrauding the consumer),then the engine is bad because its consuming oil yet it's not even broken in yet,now the dealers only go by the book,which means they aren't switching labels I assume.
This guy must be a politician. Flip flopping like a fish out of water that needs clubbed. At least stick to your position,or we won't know which [censored] story not to believe.
First it's liqui-moly and their engine flush causing a runaway,then it's dealers swapping labels(please enlighten us skyship with the names of these dealers defrauding the consumer),then the engine is bad because its consuming oil yet it's not even broken in yet,now the dealers only go by the book,which means they aren't switching labels I assume.
This guy must be a politician. Flip flopping like a fish out of water that needs clubbed. At least stick to your position,or we won't know which [censored] story not to believe.
do a few wide open runs from say 20 - 60 mph... many times the rings need to seal and if you drive it very slow and baby it sometimes this happens... punch it a couple of times... this happens from time to time even when we rebuild them.
use the 5w20 and see what happens
use the 5w20 and see what happens
Overkill, you have dealt with enough Germans to know how they are.
Generally speaking they are very "correct people", cheating people isn't in the average Germans DNA.
They charge a price, sometimes a high price but deliver what you pay for. Again, of course there are black sheep but they are not the norm.
Generally speaking they are very "correct people", cheating people isn't in the average Germans DNA.
They charge a price, sometimes a high price but deliver what you pay for. Again, of course there are black sheep but they are not the norm.
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Originally Posted By: Trav
Overkill, you have dealt with enough Germans to know how they are.
Generally speaking they are very "correct people", cheating people isn't in the average Germans DNA.
They charge a price, sometimes a high price but deliver what you pay for. Again, of course there are black sheep but they are not the norm.
I sure have Trav, which is why I do in fact extract some amusement from skyship's posts, as they are like the twilight zone version of Germany
Overkill, you have dealt with enough Germans to know how they are.
Generally speaking they are very "correct people", cheating people isn't in the average Germans DNA.
They charge a price, sometimes a high price but deliver what you pay for. Again, of course there are black sheep but they are not the norm.
I sure have Trav, which is why I do in fact extract some amusement from skyship's posts, as they are like the twilight zone version of Germany
I have one thing to say-if somebody can't keep their story straight they probably either don't know what they are talking about or else they are not telling the truth. Remember the old saying about somebody who is not telling the truth being being caught up in the spiderweb of their own lies.
It is be easy to tell a truthful story, even if it is complicated.
It is more difficult to tell an untruthful story, because the more the story continues the more the teller might forget what lies they have already told and the more they might have to invent something new to cover the holes in the story they have already told.
All of this reminds me of when the Synlube guys were here. It sure became harder and harder to locate that Synlube production plant. Eventually it went all the way to a classified site that no ordinary citizen would be able to enter.
Actually, this is pretty funny when you stop to think about it.
We were lucky to have somebody like Trav who knows what goes on in Germany.
It is be easy to tell a truthful story, even if it is complicated.
It is more difficult to tell an untruthful story, because the more the story continues the more the teller might forget what lies they have already told and the more they might have to invent something new to cover the holes in the story they have already told.
All of this reminds me of when the Synlube guys were here. It sure became harder and harder to locate that Synlube production plant. Eventually it went all the way to a classified site that no ordinary citizen would be able to enter.
Actually, this is pretty funny when you stop to think about it.
We were lucky to have somebody like Trav who knows what goes on in Germany.
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Heavier oil isn't always a fix, either. Oil consumption is a lot more complex than just viscosity. In an interesting turn, my own Ford modular has consumed more 10W30 than it did 5W20... not that it was much in either case.
this has been my experience with the modular engine as well. ive owned 5 of them and the first two would use more oil with 10w30 or 5w30 than 5w20. a strange thing to wrap the mind around, but it is just proof that the ford engines that spec 5w20 are happy running 5w20
Heavier oil isn't always a fix, either. Oil consumption is a lot more complex than just viscosity. In an interesting turn, my own Ford modular has consumed more 10W30 than it did 5W20... not that it was much in either case.
this has been my experience with the modular engine as well. ive owned 5 of them and the first two would use more oil with 10w30 or 5w30 than 5w20. a strange thing to wrap the mind around, but it is just proof that the ford engines that spec 5w20 are happy running 5w20
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: skyship
Everything gets subject to back specing to save money if it lasts too long.
Using this logic, if the engine was designed for 5w20 (which it was), then what are they going to back-spec it to, 0w5? Come on man....
ERR, WHERE DID I MENTION 0/5, BACK SPECING IS NOT DONE IN CONNECTION WITH THE OIL.
Quote:
If you ask a top R&D engineer that works for Ford he will probably tell you that if you push the engine hard it should use a full synthetic 5/40.
Then why don't they suggest that grade in motorhomes where they are not subject to CAFE?
THEY CAN'T TELL TWO DIFFERENT STORIES ABOUT THE SAME ENGINE!
Quote:
Just check what Ford in the UK or Germany use for engine oil for exactly the same engine (The UK page of Mobil or the US page of Liqui Moly work best) to see if it was designed from scratch to use cheap dinoblend 5/20.
Have you tried to source a vehicle with the 6.8L V10 outside of North America? I think you will discover that it isn't sold in many places abroad. A vehicle with it fitted doesn't show under the German Mobil site for example, you have to choose the Ford (US) list, which just tells you to use what the manufacturer recommends.
TRUE, IT'S NOT LISTED OUTSIDE THE US, BUT THE LM GERMAN SITE HAS A US CAR PAGE BUT DOES NOT COPY ANY CHANGES IN RECOMMENDED OIL SPECS WITHOUT SUPPORTING TEST DATA. SO THAT PAGE IS A BETTER ONE TO CHECK FOR A NON CAFE FIGURE.
We are talking about an extremely large, American engine that likely has extremely limited use outside of the North American market. Considering that, what do you think the odds are that the engine was "designed for" European lubricants and then "CAFE spec'd" for 5w20 in North America?
WHERE DID YOU GET THE IDEA THAT 0 or 5/30 IS AN EU SPEC OIL, IT's KIND OF COMMON IN THE US.
But then I've made many references to the design of the Modular and its oiling system in the past that you seem to ignore.... Do you even know where the Modular engines are made?
Quote:
In most cases the only forward spec work has been done by changing all the advertising and manuals printed in the US to show the oil required by the CAFE bean counters.
Do you have ANY proof of this, or is this just something you've extracted from your posterior to bolster your position in this thread?
IT'S OBVIOUS TO ANYONE THAT DOES EVEN BASIC RESEARCH AND THE SHORT OCI's GIVE THE GAME AWAY. IF A NEW ENGINE IS DESIGNED TO USE A CHEAP 5/20 IT WILL HAVE A LONG RECOMMENDED OCI, LIKE SOME NEW HYBRIDS.
Quote:
Ford can't even afford to use the best 0/20 fully synthetic that will stay in grade longer as it kills the dealers profit margin.
Another fine baseless accusation.. Ford can't afford 0w20.... Right. But they appear to be affording 5w50 just fine, strange how that works.....
NONE OF THE MAIN CAR MANUFACTURERS ARE USING THE BEST OIL, THEY STILL SEEM TO PREFER SHORT OCI's. THE DEALERS FOR THE CHEAPER IMPORTS DO THE SAME THING.
Quote:
Even if they did quite of few of their own dealers would swap labels on the bulk oil drums and put the cheap stuff in.
And you have proof of this? I somehow doubt it....
CHECK THE PETROLEUM INSTITUTE WEB SITE FOR CURRENT LEGAL CASES. Some of the dealers have been caught in the EU selling the wrong oil, although the last casein the US was the fault of the oil supplier.
Quote:
Money is real tight these days and even in Germany we see cases of Iffy lubes and dealers using GTX 10/40 or 5/30 when the book and bill say Edge only.
So because you say this is the case in Germany (which I'll wait for Trav to confirm, sorry if that offends you) that this automatically makes it the case for North American Ford dealers?
I DIDN'T SAY FORD DID IT, IT's JUST A RISK FACTOR AND A REASON FOR NOT ALLOWING SOME DEALERS TO STOCK EXPENSIVE FULL SYNTHETICS. THE ONLY CASES I'VE SEEN ARE PORSCH RELATED AS THEY CHEW UP DINO.
Quote:
A Blackstones UOA won't show the difference in an obvious manner between the two oils as the add packs look similar from the two 5/30's, it takes a full chemical analysis to prove the wrong oil has been used.
Given the average OCI length in North America, this isn't an issue. Ford doesn't have any "extended drain" specs so this point is moot.
Replies after each comment, as it's easier not to miss something. If you use a 20 grade think very carefully about using a real top quality 0/20 that stays in grade longer, my main point is that 20 is OK for some new engines, BUT not if you use cheap oil or want to to do a longer OCI. The US was starting to get away from short OCI's and cheap oil & filter use, BUT the CAFE bean counters have killed that trend dead by insisting on light oil use.
Originally Posted By: skyship
Everything gets subject to back specing to save money if it lasts too long.
Using this logic, if the engine was designed for 5w20 (which it was), then what are they going to back-spec it to, 0w5? Come on man....
ERR, WHERE DID I MENTION 0/5, BACK SPECING IS NOT DONE IN CONNECTION WITH THE OIL.
Quote:
If you ask a top R&D engineer that works for Ford he will probably tell you that if you push the engine hard it should use a full synthetic 5/40.
Then why don't they suggest that grade in motorhomes where they are not subject to CAFE?
THEY CAN'T TELL TWO DIFFERENT STORIES ABOUT THE SAME ENGINE!
Quote:
Just check what Ford in the UK or Germany use for engine oil for exactly the same engine (The UK page of Mobil or the US page of Liqui Moly work best) to see if it was designed from scratch to use cheap dinoblend 5/20.
Have you tried to source a vehicle with the 6.8L V10 outside of North America? I think you will discover that it isn't sold in many places abroad. A vehicle with it fitted doesn't show under the German Mobil site for example, you have to choose the Ford (US) list, which just tells you to use what the manufacturer recommends.
TRUE, IT'S NOT LISTED OUTSIDE THE US, BUT THE LM GERMAN SITE HAS A US CAR PAGE BUT DOES NOT COPY ANY CHANGES IN RECOMMENDED OIL SPECS WITHOUT SUPPORTING TEST DATA. SO THAT PAGE IS A BETTER ONE TO CHECK FOR A NON CAFE FIGURE.
We are talking about an extremely large, American engine that likely has extremely limited use outside of the North American market. Considering that, what do you think the odds are that the engine was "designed for" European lubricants and then "CAFE spec'd" for 5w20 in North America?
WHERE DID YOU GET THE IDEA THAT 0 or 5/30 IS AN EU SPEC OIL, IT's KIND OF COMMON IN THE US.
But then I've made many references to the design of the Modular and its oiling system in the past that you seem to ignore.... Do you even know where the Modular engines are made?
Quote:
In most cases the only forward spec work has been done by changing all the advertising and manuals printed in the US to show the oil required by the CAFE bean counters.
Do you have ANY proof of this, or is this just something you've extracted from your posterior to bolster your position in this thread?
IT'S OBVIOUS TO ANYONE THAT DOES EVEN BASIC RESEARCH AND THE SHORT OCI's GIVE THE GAME AWAY. IF A NEW ENGINE IS DESIGNED TO USE A CHEAP 5/20 IT WILL HAVE A LONG RECOMMENDED OCI, LIKE SOME NEW HYBRIDS.
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Ford can't even afford to use the best 0/20 fully synthetic that will stay in grade longer as it kills the dealers profit margin.
Another fine baseless accusation.. Ford can't afford 0w20.... Right. But they appear to be affording 5w50 just fine, strange how that works.....
NONE OF THE MAIN CAR MANUFACTURERS ARE USING THE BEST OIL, THEY STILL SEEM TO PREFER SHORT OCI's. THE DEALERS FOR THE CHEAPER IMPORTS DO THE SAME THING.
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Even if they did quite of few of their own dealers would swap labels on the bulk oil drums and put the cheap stuff in.
And you have proof of this? I somehow doubt it....
CHECK THE PETROLEUM INSTITUTE WEB SITE FOR CURRENT LEGAL CASES. Some of the dealers have been caught in the EU selling the wrong oil, although the last casein the US was the fault of the oil supplier.
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Money is real tight these days and even in Germany we see cases of Iffy lubes and dealers using GTX 10/40 or 5/30 when the book and bill say Edge only.
So because you say this is the case in Germany (which I'll wait for Trav to confirm, sorry if that offends you) that this automatically makes it the case for North American Ford dealers?
I DIDN'T SAY FORD DID IT, IT's JUST A RISK FACTOR AND A REASON FOR NOT ALLOWING SOME DEALERS TO STOCK EXPENSIVE FULL SYNTHETICS. THE ONLY CASES I'VE SEEN ARE PORSCH RELATED AS THEY CHEW UP DINO.
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A Blackstones UOA won't show the difference in an obvious manner between the two oils as the add packs look similar from the two 5/30's, it takes a full chemical analysis to prove the wrong oil has been used.
Given the average OCI length in North America, this isn't an issue. Ford doesn't have any "extended drain" specs so this point is moot.
Replies after each comment, as it's easier not to miss something. If you use a 20 grade think very carefully about using a real top quality 0/20 that stays in grade longer, my main point is that 20 is OK for some new engines, BUT not if you use cheap oil or want to to do a longer OCI. The US was starting to get away from short OCI's and cheap oil & filter use, BUT the CAFE bean counters have killed that trend dead by insisting on light oil use.
It took me a long time to have faith in the 20 grades and the ford modulars in particular have no longevity issues using them as proven by police fleets,which become cabs under likely the toughest possible duty cycle possible. Long idle periods,from 0 throttle to full blast in city traffic including bumper to bumper with the AC on. So for this engine family in particular they seem to do just fine running a 20 grade oil and aren't dissolving.
OP
I suggest as already suggested doing a few 2nd gear 20-50mph blasts at roughly 3/4 throttle to help the rings seat,and just monitor your oil levels and keep the dealer informed. Not much more you can do other than just keeping an eye on it.
OP
I suggest as already suggested doing a few 2nd gear 20-50mph blasts at roughly 3/4 throttle to help the rings seat,and just monitor your oil levels and keep the dealer informed. Not much more you can do other than just keeping an eye on it.
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Well,we got about 6 or 7 more pages yet to go of discussing 5w20 oil again.
This is starting to happen almost weekly around these forums.
This is starting to happen almost weekly around these forums.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: skyship
ERR, WHERE DID I MENTION 0/5, BACK SPECING IS NOT DONE IN CONNECTION WITH THE OIL.
Then what the heck are you talking about when you speak about back-specing? as that's EXACTLY what Ford did, they back-spec'd engines that were listed for 5w30 and 10w30 for 5w20 when it became available. This includes the first generation of the Modular engines.
I seriously haven't a clue as to what you are talking about here.
Quote:
THEY CAN'T TELL TWO DIFFERENT STORIES ABOUT THE SAME ENGINE!
Of course they can. Look at the BOSS 302 and Mustang GT, both have 5.0L engines, but the BOSS 302 is "track ready" and spec's 5w50. So does the GT500, Ford GT...etc and these are all Modular engines as well.
You've gotta come up with something better than that.
Quote:
TRUE, IT'S NOT LISTED OUTSIDE THE US, BUT THE LM GERMAN SITE HAS A US CAR PAGE BUT DOES NOT COPY ANY CHANGES IN RECOMMENDED OIL SPECS WITHOUT SUPPORTING TEST DATA. SO THAT PAGE IS A BETTER ONE TO CHECK FOR A NON CAFE FIGURE.
Which is pretty much what Mobil says: Follow the manufacturer's recommendation, which is 5w20........
Quote:
WHERE DID YOU GET THE IDEA THAT 0 or 5/30 IS AN EU SPEC OIL, IT's KIND OF COMMON IN THE US.
I didn't say it was. But that seems to be your position, that this engine needs a "long life" Euro spec lubricant because 5w20 is due to CAFE and it shears, whilst the OCI isn't long enough to make one lick of difference here AND the Modular, unless we speak about the GT500, doesn't shear oil! I even showed you my own bloody UOA's as proof of this.
Quote:
IT'S OBVIOUS TO ANYONE THAT DOES EVEN BASIC RESEARCH AND THE SHORT OCI's GIVE THE GAME AWAY. IF A NEW ENGINE IS DESIGNED TO USE A CHEAP 5/20 IT WILL HAVE A LONG RECOMMENDED OCI, LIKE SOME NEW HYBRIDS.
Right, because the usage profile between a hybrid and a 2-ton van or truck chassis hauling 14K lbs is comparable..... Did you consider the application here? I'm thinking not.
Quote:
NONE OF THE MAIN CAR MANUFACTURERS ARE USING THE BEST OIL, THEY STILL SEEM TO PREFER SHORT OCI's. THE DEALERS FOR THE CHEAPER IMPORTS DO THE SAME THING.
Define the "best oil". They all do extensive testing with their approved lubricants, are you saying these are inadequate for protecting their engines? Because taxi, LEO and Limo folks are going to disagree with you here.
Quote:
CHECK THE PETROLEUM INSTITUTE WEB SITE FOR CURRENT LEGAL CASES. Some of the dealers have been caught in the EU selling the wrong oil, although the last casein the US was the fault of the oil supplier.
How about you cite some examples? I mean you just shot yourself in the foot mentioning the last US example wasn't even an example!
Quote:
I DIDN'T SAY FORD DID IT, IT's JUST A RISK FACTOR AND A REASON FOR NOT ALLOWING SOME DEALERS TO STOCK EXPENSIVE FULL SYNTHETICS. THE ONLY CASES I'VE SEEN ARE PORSCH RELATED AS THEY CHEW UP DINO.
Well, we are in a thread about Ford, and the discussion is about a Ford engine, so if you have no evidence that Ford does it, why mention it?
Quote:
Replies after each comment, as it's easier not to miss something.
I suggest taking the effort to break it apart using the quote tags when you respond instead of making a big broken mess if you want to go back and forth point-by-point. It makes it a lot easier to read.
Quote:
If you use a 20 grade think very carefully about using a real top quality 0/20 that stays in grade longer, my main point is that 20 is OK for some new engines,
We are talking about a brand new engine, that was designed for 5w20.....
Quote:
BUT not if you use cheap oil or want to to do a longer OCI. The US was starting to get away from short OCI's and cheap oil & filter use, BUT the CAFE bean counters have killed that trend dead by insisting on light oil use.
We are talking about 450 chassis Ford truck. This isn't your grocery getting extended drain on dino or a blend candidate.
Ford uses an oil life monitor with 5w20. Drain intervals are still longer than the "quick lube" changes from years gone by. But usage profile (not surprisingly) is one of the parameters of the OLM and if this truck is being worked as hard as the OP indicates, even if it IS fitted with an OLM, the drain intervals are still going to be relatively short.
CAFE hasn't killed the transition to longer drain intervals in any way. The adoption of OLM's has meant that by and large, longer drain intervals are becoming the norm in North America.
ERR, WHERE DID I MENTION 0/5, BACK SPECING IS NOT DONE IN CONNECTION WITH THE OIL.
Then what the heck are you talking about when you speak about back-specing? as that's EXACTLY what Ford did, they back-spec'd engines that were listed for 5w30 and 10w30 for 5w20 when it became available. This includes the first generation of the Modular engines.
I seriously haven't a clue as to what you are talking about here.
Quote:
THEY CAN'T TELL TWO DIFFERENT STORIES ABOUT THE SAME ENGINE!
Of course they can. Look at the BOSS 302 and Mustang GT, both have 5.0L engines, but the BOSS 302 is "track ready" and spec's 5w50. So does the GT500, Ford GT...etc and these are all Modular engines as well.
You've gotta come up with something better than that.
Quote:
TRUE, IT'S NOT LISTED OUTSIDE THE US, BUT THE LM GERMAN SITE HAS A US CAR PAGE BUT DOES NOT COPY ANY CHANGES IN RECOMMENDED OIL SPECS WITHOUT SUPPORTING TEST DATA. SO THAT PAGE IS A BETTER ONE TO CHECK FOR A NON CAFE FIGURE.
Which is pretty much what Mobil says: Follow the manufacturer's recommendation, which is 5w20........
Quote:
WHERE DID YOU GET THE IDEA THAT 0 or 5/30 IS AN EU SPEC OIL, IT's KIND OF COMMON IN THE US.
I didn't say it was. But that seems to be your position, that this engine needs a "long life" Euro spec lubricant because 5w20 is due to CAFE and it shears, whilst the OCI isn't long enough to make one lick of difference here AND the Modular, unless we speak about the GT500, doesn't shear oil! I even showed you my own bloody UOA's as proof of this.
Quote:
IT'S OBVIOUS TO ANYONE THAT DOES EVEN BASIC RESEARCH AND THE SHORT OCI's GIVE THE GAME AWAY. IF A NEW ENGINE IS DESIGNED TO USE A CHEAP 5/20 IT WILL HAVE A LONG RECOMMENDED OCI, LIKE SOME NEW HYBRIDS.
Right, because the usage profile between a hybrid and a 2-ton van or truck chassis hauling 14K lbs is comparable..... Did you consider the application here? I'm thinking not.
Quote:
NONE OF THE MAIN CAR MANUFACTURERS ARE USING THE BEST OIL, THEY STILL SEEM TO PREFER SHORT OCI's. THE DEALERS FOR THE CHEAPER IMPORTS DO THE SAME THING.
Define the "best oil". They all do extensive testing with their approved lubricants, are you saying these are inadequate for protecting their engines? Because taxi, LEO and Limo folks are going to disagree with you here.
Quote:
CHECK THE PETROLEUM INSTITUTE WEB SITE FOR CURRENT LEGAL CASES. Some of the dealers have been caught in the EU selling the wrong oil, although the last casein the US was the fault of the oil supplier.
How about you cite some examples? I mean you just shot yourself in the foot mentioning the last US example wasn't even an example!
Quote:
I DIDN'T SAY FORD DID IT, IT's JUST A RISK FACTOR AND A REASON FOR NOT ALLOWING SOME DEALERS TO STOCK EXPENSIVE FULL SYNTHETICS. THE ONLY CASES I'VE SEEN ARE PORSCH RELATED AS THEY CHEW UP DINO.
Well, we are in a thread about Ford, and the discussion is about a Ford engine, so if you have no evidence that Ford does it, why mention it?
Quote:
Replies after each comment, as it's easier not to miss something.
I suggest taking the effort to break it apart using the quote tags when you respond instead of making a big broken mess if you want to go back and forth point-by-point. It makes it a lot easier to read.
Quote:
If you use a 20 grade think very carefully about using a real top quality 0/20 that stays in grade longer, my main point is that 20 is OK for some new engines,
We are talking about a brand new engine, that was designed for 5w20.....
Quote:
BUT not if you use cheap oil or want to to do a longer OCI. The US was starting to get away from short OCI's and cheap oil & filter use, BUT the CAFE bean counters have killed that trend dead by insisting on light oil use.
We are talking about 450 chassis Ford truck. This isn't your grocery getting extended drain on dino or a blend candidate.
Ford uses an oil life monitor with 5w20. Drain intervals are still longer than the "quick lube" changes from years gone by. But usage profile (not surprisingly) is one of the parameters of the OLM and if this truck is being worked as hard as the OP indicates, even if it IS fitted with an OLM, the drain intervals are still going to be relatively short.
CAFE hasn't killed the transition to longer drain intervals in any way. The adoption of OLM's has meant that by and large, longer drain intervals are becoming the norm in North America.
Originally Posted By: DragRace
Well,we got about 6 or 7 more pages yet to go of discussing 5w20 oil again.
This is starting to happen almost weekly around these forums.
Yep I don't even know what they're arguing about except that they clearly don't like one another.
What's amusing is that skyship is in the thick oil camp but they don't want him.
Overkill is putting in very reasoned points about when 20 weight is appropriate so it would be wonderful if there were some fact based arguments against what he is saying but there isn't. I've even seen a post about "claimed testing" and how even the dealer is recommending 30 weight so 20 weight must be suspect - these are the types of rebuttals coming from people who criticize skyship for making things up!
So this isn't a thin vs thick argument. It's just an argument, and in some cases it's just about ego.
(Now its my turn to receive personal criticism)
Well,we got about 6 or 7 more pages yet to go of discussing 5w20 oil again.
This is starting to happen almost weekly around these forums.
Yep I don't even know what they're arguing about except that they clearly don't like one another.
What's amusing is that skyship is in the thick oil camp but they don't want him.
Overkill is putting in very reasoned points about when 20 weight is appropriate so it would be wonderful if there were some fact based arguments against what he is saying but there isn't. I've even seen a post about "claimed testing" and how even the dealer is recommending 30 weight so 20 weight must be suspect - these are the types of rebuttals coming from people who criticize skyship for making things up!
So this isn't a thin vs thick argument. It's just an argument, and in some cases it's just about ego.
(Now its my turn to receive personal criticism)
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