Here I go again.New ford truck burning 5w20 oil.

[blackman777]

Originally Posted By: Brent_G
All this hate twards Xw20 is stupid, it has been speced for 50+ years as straight 20. As long as your trucks manual says that 5w20 is required for your use pulling your loads you are fine,

SAE 20 is equivalent to 20w-20 and is not the same as 5w-20 or 0w-20. Not even close.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: FoxS
Hilarious thread to revisit after so long.

One poster at the beginning leapt to the conclusion that because the dealer suggested 30 weight oil that HAD to mean a flaw with 20 weight oil.

Now that same poster says "Report back in 10k". Yeah yeah I know you're allowed to change your mind, or should I say your "JMO".

And then the OP pops back up and describes his "new" truck as if its been recovered from the Hudson.

So anyone can get the whole of BITOG going on a thin oil thread with any story and pop back later to start clarifying some important information.

My Prius just got 76mpg on 20w60 you know ........


20/60 in a Prius, mine Gott! It's not made by the "Use 5/20 or else" Ford folks!

After having read some comparisons between what the Ford warranty approvals for oil say and what they are using, in combination with reading and comparing oil approvals from Volvo for their 2.0 Ford diesels (They list a series of oils from 0/30 to 15/40 for different conditions when Ford just stick to the thin oil song), I have lost faith in any oil grade approvals from Ford. That is a sad state of affairs where a major US vehicle manufacturer who makes some good engines is forced into telling the public a story rather than the engineering related truth about which oil and OCI to use.
It does appear that you can cross check Ford recommendations by either checking the UK or German major brand engine oil company oil finder guides and seeing what is listed in the oil section of your warranty.

As regards the Prius 20/60 fan, I suspect a top quality 0/20 or 30 is best unless you have a good pre heater. Oddly enough one of the Volvo million mile plus club chaps has moved from 10/40 Magnetec to Castrol HM 15/40 due to a few minor oil leaks, but he has a full block heater.


Yep. Proven by all these failed ford engines over here in North America.


Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: Brent_G
All this hate twards Xw20 is stupid, it has been speced for 50+ years as straight 20. As long as your trucks manual says that 5w20 is required for your use pulling your loads you are fine,

SAE 20 is equivalent to 20w-20 and is not the same as 5w-20 or 0w-20. Not even close.



Huh. It's a 20 at operating temp. How are they "not even close".
Because its a straight 20 just means its thick at start up at operating temp its thin.
Do enlighten me with your expert analysis

 

[blackman777]

20w20 uses a 20 weight oil as its base.

5w-20 uses a 5 weight oil as its base.
I have read that multiple places.

 

[aquariuscsm]

So would a 20W20 actually be a monograde 20?

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
20w20 is a base 20 weight oil.

5w-20 is a base 5 weight oil.



Still a 20 grade at operating temp,where the engine spends most of its life. So considering that fact they are more alike than not.
Thanks for your enlightening answer. Glad we have experts like you gracing the forums presence.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
20w20 uses a 20 weight oil as its base.

5w-20 uses a 5 weight oil as its base.
I have read that multiple places.


Why not read some of MolaKule's old posts about the blending ratios of what basestocks to get a specific viscosity oil?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
20w20 uses a 20 weight oil as its base.

5w-20 uses a 5 weight oil as its base.
I have read that multiple places.


Wrong.

What do VII's do?

How is Redline able to make a 5w-30 with no VII's if the oil starts as an SAE 5 grade?

Hint..... It doesn't.

The VI of a base oil is an important factor here. Pour point depressants and polymer are added to the base stock blend (as well as the additive package, which should be a given here) to determine the oil's final multi-grade characteristics. The relatively high VI of certain types of base oils means that little polymer is needed to achieve the desired characteristics.

An SAE 5 lubricant VII'd to act like a 20 when hot would be incredibly shear prone. Given that pretty much every 5w20 we see UOA's of on this site don't shear, do you honestly think that this is the method employed to create those lubricants?

Read more, post less please. You constantly post like you are an authority on these topics when in reality you lack any real understanding and simply parrot whatever information you've skimmed as if it were irrefutable. When asked to back it up, your reply is simply that you've read it a few times. If you actually understood what you were posting about, you'd have a much better response than that and would actually be able to explain yourself.

Parroting nonsense other people have spouted doesn't make you an expert.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: blackman777
20w20 uses a 20 weight oil as its base.

5w-20 uses a 5 weight oil as its base.
I have read that multiple places.


Why not read some of MolaKule's old posts about the blending ratios of what basestocks to get a specific viscosity oil?


Because then he might actually post something that makes sense, and we wouldn't want that

 

[OVERKILL]

BTW, here's the viscosity chart from the main page:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/

SAE 5 and SAE 5w are not the same thing.

The "winter" designations, 0w, 5w, 10w, 15w 20w, 25w are all based on CCS at a given temperature.

Here's a good chart:

and a link to the article it came from:

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/411/oil-viscosity

With a multi-grade, you have an oil that behaves like a given "winter" weight oil when cold, but also has the viscosity characteristics of a 20, 30, 40, 50....etc at 100C.

Depending on the VI of the base stocks used, this will determine what your base viscosity is, whether you need to use polymer to get your final multigrade split....etc.

Historically, with an inexpensive multigrade oil, light base oils were used and thickened with polymer to get the oil to behave as desired. Of course these polymers would degrade, causing the oil to shear and the polymers would also cause varnish and sludge as they broke down. This is why GM warned against the use of 10w-40 "back in the day".

With the advent of high VI base oils and more stringent spec's and approvals, today's multigrade oils are based on base stocks with a high natural VI, meaning that far less polymer is used, and in some cases no VII's are added at all. AMSOIL makes a few oils like this, as does Redline and this is likely the case for many of the mainstream synthetics.

That being said, today's VII's are significantly better than their predecessors. And combined with better base oils, you have lubricants that are more shear stable and require very little polymer to achieve their final characteristics.

 

[OVERKILL]

JHZR2:

I think this is one of the posts by MolaKule that you were referencing:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...8838#Post258838

Originally Posted By: Molakule
The advantages to synthetics (PAO's in this case) is that the PAO molecules have a narrow distribution of different molecules of nearly the same size for a particular viscosity, whereas the mineral oils have a wide distribution of many different types of molecules of different sizes (differing molecular weights).

In general, the molecular weight of lubricants will increse with viscosity.

If I mix for example 24% PAO of 8 cSt viscosity and 52% PAO of 40 cSt viscosity I will obtain a fluid of about 16 cSt viscosity@100 C with a minimum VI of 145. This is in essence a 10W40 without any VII's.


Mixing 23% PAO of 8 cSt viscosity with 51% PAO of 100 cSt viscosity gives me a viscosity of 27 cSt@ 100 C with a minumum VI of 150. This is in essence a 20W50 without any VII's.

Mixing 23% PAO of 4 cSt viscosity and 51% PAO of 100 cSt viscosity would give me approximately a 5W50, albeit the CCV might not be what I want.

Mixing different percentages of those same viscosities as the examples above would yield different viscosities as well. The percentages are affected by the application, such as, is the lubricant for engine oils or for gear lubes.

 

[nickaluch]

Update on the truck.At 2800 miles only used half a quart of oil.Picked it up at the dealer last nite for some problems.They changed the back roll up door and goes up and down like a breeze.They changed out 2 of the lightly rusted hose clamps from the overflow tank.They changed the dipstick ,old one was missing top O ring gasket.Reflashed the trans as per update to fix 1st to 2nd gear roughnes.Reflashed the engine mgt for rough idle.Front end reset to spec and told to keep an eye on oil usage.Tranny shifts much smoother now and idle is better but not perfect.They told me idle will always feel diffrent because it ia a V10 motor not a V8.The wires showing on the door A pillar was removed from the box manufacture reading and not replaced.Reading told them the trim will not fit now because lack of room.They tucked and covered the wires preety good so not to concerened over it.So at this point I will just keep an eye on the oil and go from there.

 

[nickaluch]

To clairfy the oil usage.At 1400 miles down one quart of oil.Dealer changed the oil.At 2800 miles only 1400 since oil change down a half quart.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
SAE 20 is equivalent to 20w-20 and is not the same as 5w-20 or 0w-20. Not even close.


Actually, there is a difference between 20w-20 and SAE 20. The former is an actual multigrade with a 20w test at the appropriate cold cranking temperature and meeting 20 grade specifications at 100 C. A straight 20 has no cold cranking test component.

Also, check Overkill's post that has the data listed.

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: nickaluch
To clairfy the oil usage.At 1400 miles down one quart of oil.Dealer changed the oil.At 2800 miles only 1400 since oil change down a half quart.


Ahhhh 100% improvement, assuming it further improves to 3500-4000m per quart I'd be happy...

 

[blackman777]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: blackman777
SAE 20 is equivalent to 20w-20 and is not the same as 5w-20 or 0w-20. Not even close.
Huh. It's a 20 at operating temp. How are they "not even close". Because its a straight 20 just means its thick at start up at operating temp its thin.

So are you telling me SAE20 and 5w-20 are identical..... like BrentG was claiming? Quote: "All this hate towards Xw20 is stupid, it has been speced for 50+ years as straight 20."

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: blackman777
SAE 20 is equivalent to 20w-20 and is not the same as 5w-20 or 0w-20. Not even close.
Huh. It's a 20 at operating temp. How are they "not even close". Because its a straight 20 just means its thick at start up at operating temp its thin.

So are you telling me SAE20 and 5w-20 are identical..... like BrentG was claiming? Quote: "All this hate towards Xw20 is stupid, it has been speced for 50+ years as straight 20."


At operating temp they are. For the 10 minutes it takes for the engine to heat up its thicker,but how long does the oil stay cold.
Where did I say identical? You said they weren't even close,and I countered that were are close.
At operating temp they aren't identical but they are the same grade,which makes them close,doesn't it.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
BTW, here's the viscosity chart from the main page:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/

SAE 5 and SAE 5w are not the same thing.

The "winter" designations, 0w, 5w, 10w, 15w 20w, 25w are all based on CCS at a given temperature.

Here's a good chart:

and a link to the article it came from:

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/411/oil-viscosity

With a multi-grade, you have an oil that behaves like a given "winter" weight oil when cold, but also has the viscosity characteristics of a 20, 30, 40, 50....etc at 100C.

Depending on the VI of the base stocks used, this will determine what your base viscosity is, whether you need to use polymer to get your final multigrade split....etc.

Historically, with an inexpensive multigrade oil, light base oils were used and thickened with polymer to get the oil to behave as desired. Of course these polymers would degrade, causing the oil to shear and the polymers would also cause varnish and sludge as they broke down. This is why GM warned against the use of 10w-40 "back in the day".

With the advent of high VI base oils and more stringent spec's and approvals, today's multigrade oils are based on base stocks with a high natural VI, meaning that far less polymer is used, and in some cases no VII's are added at all. AMSOIL makes a few oils like this, as does Redline and this is likely the case for many of the mainstream synthetics.

That being said, today's VII's are significantly better than their predecessors. And combined with better base oils, you have lubricants that are more shear stable and require very little polymer to achieve their final characteristics.


Thanks overkill. I love info. And it's in terms I can understand.
WOOHOO

 

[blackman777]

BrentG wrote: "All this hate towards Xw20 is stupid, it has been speced for 50+ years as straight 20."

SAE20 and xW-20 are not the same thing. Not the same cold performance. Not the same base oil. Not the same levels of viscosity index modifiers (SAE20 has none).

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
BrentG wrote: "All this hate towards Xw20 is stupid, it has been speced for 50+ years as straight 20."

SAE20 and xW-20 are not the same thing. Not the same cold performance. Not the same base oil. Not the same levels of viscosity index modifiers (SAE20 has none).




But in regards to a synthetic 5w20 which may have no VII's and has a 20-weight base oil that also happens to flow well enough at low temperatures to obtain the 5w designation, you end up with a far superior product than the basic SAE 20 due to superior base oils, higher VI, meaning better flow at start-up, and in general, just better performance.