Geniuses at GM dealer

[Falcon_LS]

Consumer law, as far as automobiles are concerned, pretty much sucks here. Basically, if the dealership does not service your brand new vehicle, your warranty is void. If you import a car from a neighbouring country or abroad, the dealer reserves the right to refuse to service it - even if you're paying money. Even better - there's only one authorised dealership per manufacturer. That's basically a glimpse of just how things are messed up over here.

This evening, I took my uncle's '09 Denali to the GM dealer for it's 10,000 km/6,250 mile service. The moment I drove in, I had security staff telling me to come back tomorrow morning. I reminded him I was at work in the morning, and the service centre closes at 8 PM. It was only 6:40 PM when I drove in! Took a bit of persuasion there, and I was allowed into the service bay - how very generous of them. It's not like I'm driving into a charity, I'm being charged for their services! God Almighty.

According to the owner's manual, engine oil has to be a 5W-30 viscosity and meet GM 6094M spec. The manual specifically states not to use any other viscosity, and especially not a 20W-50. PP 5W-30 meets GM 6094M, so I bought 6 quarts of it before going to the dealer.

They have a drive thru set up, so you park outside the service advisor's mini office, and he comes out. The advisor comes out, and I have a word with him instead of just saying "Hello, I'm here for my 10,000 kilometre service". I told him I'd like the air filter replaced with the high capacity filter (A1518C) and I'd like them to reset the OLM once they change the oil. He kept nodding until I told him I was supplying my own oil. That was when he gave me an odd look. Then I rather politely asked him him not to bother putting an oil change sticker on the windscreen, because I was following the OLM.

He asked to see the oil, so I showed him the PP 5W-30 and he said their oil was "better". When I asked what their oil was - he gave me a choice of BP Visco 3000 20W-50 (API SL/CF) and BP Visco 5W-40 Synthetic (API SL/CF, BMW LL-98, MB Sheet 229.1 and ACEA A3/B3) - both sourced from the UAE. From experience, I would not pour any UAE sourced lubricant in my slump even if they paid me.

I told him the filler cap says 5W-30, the owner's manual says the oil must meet GM 6094M spec and it strictly says no 20W-50! I also said nowhere on either oil is GM 6094M spec mentioned. That was when he started lecturing me - "Kuwait is a hot country, we must use thick oil and change oil every 5,000 kilometres!" Must? That was when I decided to play devil's advocate - "You're telling me Kuwait's heat is more extreme than places like Arizona, Texas and New Mexico, where 5W-30 is specified for the same engine? And the OLM is nonsense, despite the fact that GM spent all this money developing it? So you guys are in a better position, than the engineers who designed this engine, to specify what lubricant is best for it?" He looked very confused.

Next, he tries to persuade me to opt for their 5W-40 synthetic and run it for 5,000 kilometres. Told him it does not meet GM's requirements (regardless of viscosity), so I wasn't using it. Things were getting tense. I was told they reserve the right to refuse to service my vehicle, and I said if they refuse then they better provide me with written evidence as to why. They couldn't do that, either. So I said fine, I have no problem changing my own oil - done so countless times. There, he tells me he would cancel my bumper to bumper, new vehicle warranty. Must have some really high IQ techs there changing the oil. So there I was - either use an oil the manufacturer specifically states not to use, use an oil that does not meet manufacturer spec, or be refused service and have my warranty cancelled.

That was when I asked the advisor for spec sheets for both oils they use in their service facilities. When asked why, I told them I was contacting General Motors, providing details of their lubricants and what I supplied, whilst filing a complaint because my vehicle was refused service for wanting to use the correct lubricant. Everything turns around 180 degrees, and I got the green light for the PP 5W-30. Only thing I couldn't get them to agree on is following the OLM, despite having reset it. So they want me to run PP for just 5,000 kilometres.

Will have a word with a few people up the hierarchy on that one. Didn't pay $70 for the oil, plus $65 parts/labour charges to run it for just 5,000 kilometres.

 

[01rangerxl]

That is absolutely insane. It's hard to wrap my head around a dealer threatening to void your warranty for not using an oil that doesn't meet GM's spec. When the government's laws allow a dealer to be a monopoly, they will run with it I guess.

 

[bdcardinal]

simple solution for the stickers is to take them off, no harm there.

 

[defektes]

Wow, that was quite a story. That is pretty messed up that they were trying to force you to use a non-certified oil and tried to cancel your warranty.

Good thing you did not let them walk all over you. I would try and file complaints as much as possible. I am not sure how the law out there works, here the dealer cant force you to got o them to change your oil unless they give you a free oil change.

Good luck!

 

[Falcon_LS]

Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
That is absolutely insane. It's hard to wrap my head around a dealer threatening to void your warranty for not using an oil that doesn't meet GM's spec. When the government's laws allow a dealer to be a monopoly, they will run with it I guess.


Unfortunately true.

Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
simple solution for the stickers is to take them off, no harm there.


That wasn't my concern to be honest. My point is that there is a very advanced tool on this vehicle to determine when oil needs changing. There's no point in sticking to the 5,000 kilometre/3 month rule. It's a waste of time, money and natural resources.

 

[Loobed]

You are in Kuwait. What do you expect? It is not the USA.

 

[qship1996]

Your warranty is NOT with the dealer, it is with the manufacturer- dealer has no authority to "cancel" it.

 

[Hethaerto]

Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS
Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
That is absolutely insane. It's hard to wrap my head around a dealer threatening to void your warranty for not using an oil that doesn't meet GM's spec. When the government's laws allow a dealer to be a monopoly, they will run with it I guess.


Unfortunately true.

Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
simple solution for the stickers is to take them off, no harm there.


That wasn't my concern to be honest. My point is that there is a very advanced tool on this vehicle to determine when oil needs changing. There's no point in sticking to the 5,000 kilometre/3 month rule. It's a waste of time, money and natural resources.


I read somewhere on this site that the OLM does not analyze your oil, rather it makes an educated guess about the condition of the oil based on data from your driving habits, ambient temps, economy, etc.

Sorry to hear about your ordeal. You did well, though, especially by asking for a written statement regarding why they refused to service your vehicle properly.

You should contact GM regardless. I'm sure they'd find that dealer's actions very interesting.

 

[Hethaerto]

Originally Posted By: qship1996
Your warranty is NOT with the dealer, it is with the manufacturer- dealer has no authority to "cancel" it.


But they may input his data into their database indicating that they have banned him from their service center. Warranty still active, but service refused forever at that service center.

 

[camaro10]

I'm going to use syn in my 10 Camaro and use their Ac/Delco filter until the warranty runs out, then change to a Wix or PP. I will have GM do the changes until then also so I won't "accidently" void the warranty. Plus I will use the OLM and not the sticker, which by the way the sticker they stuck on my car said to come back at 3,000 miles. I am going to have it changed at 1,500 the first time then go with the OLM dispite their window sticker. Some of you may not know that ANY maintenance a GM dealer, or any dealer, does on your vehicle is reimbursed by the company, so the dealer is making more money by telling you to come back more often than necessary and it's not costing them one cent. Profits, my friends, profits.

 

[eljefino]

Your warranty is with the importer. If I bought a Toyota here it would be with "Toyota USA LLC" or somesuch. We have instances of cars coming south from Canada that were imported by "Toyota Canada" and it's hard to get service. (Not helped by Toyota USA pads $1000s of profits.) Same thing happens with "grey market" cameras.

It sounds like the dealership IS the importer, or at least has very close ties. I would go with their junk oil and change it at home "off the record". The odds are slim that they would analyze your used oil and notice it was out of spec.

 

[Falcon_LS]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
It sounds like the dealership IS the importer.


Spot on!

 

[gathermewool]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
Your warranty is with the importer. If I bought a Toyota here it would be with "Toyota USA LLC" or somesuch. We have instances of cars coming south from Canada that were imported by "Toyota Canada" and it's hard to get service. (Not helped by Toyota USA pads $1000s of profits.) Same thing happens with "grey market" cameras.

It sounds like the dealership IS the importer, or at least has very close ties. I would go with their junk oil and change it at home "off the record". The odds are slim that they would analyze your used oil and notice it was out of spec.


This won't really help since he'll be expected back 5k km later for another OC. That's a lot of money spent to maintain a vehicle that will more than likely never see an oil-related failure. If changing every 5k km through the dealer keeps them happy, isn't overly inconvenient for you and, most importantly, keeps your warranty through them in tact, I'd say just let them do what they want. Use their syth if you're worried about using 15W-anything.

 

[mechanicx]

Wow that is messed up beyond belief. Good job getting them to give in. That is just insane that they would refuse to use your spec oil or threaten to void your warranty. What kind of service is that? Maybe you will educate and change some minds there? Probably not.

 

[CROWNVIC4LIFE]

I bet by now you wish he bought a Expedition or a Navigator.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS


I told him the filler cap says 5W-30, the owner's manual says the oil must meet GM 6094M spec and it strictly says no 20W-50! I also said nowhere on either oil is GM 6094M spec mentioned. That was when he started lecturing me - "Kuwait is a hot country, we must use thick oil and change oil every 5,000 kilometres!" Must? That was when I decided to play devil's advocate - "You're telling me Kuwait's heat is more extreme than places like Arizona, Texas and New Mexico, where 5W-30 is specified for the same engine? And the OLM is nonsense, despite the fact that GM spent all this money developing it? So you guys are in a better position, than the engineers who designed this engine, to specify what lubricant is best for it?" He looked very confused.



I'm just wondering about the Kuwait Desert vs. USA Nevada, Arizona, Texas as far as dust is concerned? My son told me the dust in that part of the world is unreal, I don't know so I'm asking.

The GM OLM takes an educated guess, but I would imagine it can't factor in dirt ingested into an engine in a hostile desert climate. I think if I lived in any area where dust was a problem I wouldn't pay much attention the OLM. I remember seeing some under hood photos of one of your vehicles in the detail section several months back and the dust was unreal. I'm thinking a 3000 mile OCI would be my limit. JMO

As far as using PP 5W30 that would have been my choice. I would have told him to keep his oil.

 

[Falcon_LS]

Originally Posted By: CROWNVIC4LIFE
I bet by now you wish he bought a Expedition or a Navigator.


I'm a Ford guy, but in all honesty this isn't GM's wrong doing. The Yukon is a great truck! It's the dealership/importer that's the problem.

Having said that, I'm still wondering when the Ford importer/dealer will start importing Motorcraft Premium Synthetic Blend 5W-20. The Chrysler dealer's already jumped on the 5W-20 wagon (except for SRT vehicles).

 

[Falcon_LS]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
[I'm just wondering about the Kuwait Desert vs. USA Nevada, Arizona, Texas as far as dust is concerned? My son told me the dust in that part of the world is unreal, I don't know so I'm asking.

The GM OLM takes an educated guess, but I would imagine it can't factor in dirt ingested into an engine in a hostile desert climate. I think if I lived in any area where dust was a problem I wouldn't pay much attention the OLM. I remember seeing some under hood photos of one of your vehicles in the detail section several months back and the dust was unreal. I'm thinking a 3000 mile OCI would be my limit. JMO

As far as using PP 5W30 that would have been my choice. I would have told him to keep his oil.


Dust can be a problem, but I do not see how using thick oil would tackle it. Personally, I consider the air filter to be far more important than the oil filter, so I replace my air filters every 3,000 miles on all my vehicles. I never clean them, or wash them - worried it may affect their filtering ability, better safe than sorry. After 3,000 miles, the filter gets replaced.

At the moment I'm testing M1 0W-40 for 12,500 miles in my Montero, with an air filter change every 3,000 miles and 130 ml of ARX as a maintenance dose. At the 6,250 mile mark, I'm going to replace the oil filter as well and get a UO sample. I've already sent a virgin sample for analysis. Come 10,000 miles, I'm sending in another UO sample to see how the oil is holding up...especially with the mixed driving. A third UOA will be at 12,500 miles. It'll be interesting to see the effects of dusty weather and frequent air filter replacements.

My father and I both used this vehicle, and whilst his driving is pretty moderate, the truck has a steep axle ratio. You hit 75 MPH at 3,000 rpm. The engine sees anywhere between 3,500-5,500 rpm continually when I drive. So far, the engine seems to favour this oil compared to anything else that's been used before.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Well first dealers like to make money and they normaly make money on everything including lubricants. Since you are at their mercy you can either get the cheap 20W50 and then drain it out and install the PP 5W30 or you can stop buying oil at all and just use their 5W40. I have no idea about the quality of UAE 5W40 but I would guess that they probably buy their additive chemistry from someone else like Lubrizol,Ornite,Exxon/Mobil,BP etc......They more then likely use the same additive package for all their oils from 20W50 to 5W40 to keep cost down. I would use the 5W40 personly. I use 5W40 in Michigan often in vechiles that do not recomend anyting other then 5W30 and all is well! In that environment 5W30 would be my last choice but if I was going to use a 5W30 it would have to be ester based like Redline,Motul,Penrite,Fuchs,Total Quartz,NEO etc......PP is not that great of a synthetic in the USA at least and has a lot of GIII in it and a pretty high NOAK loss rate. I just would not trust it in the heat that you see in your environment.

I agree that the dealership has an unfair advantage because they can dangle the warranty carrot over your head if you get too loud and out of hand.

 

[Falcon_LS]

Originally Posted By: JohnBrowning
Well first dealers like to make money and they normaly make money on everything including lubricants. Since you are at their mercy you can either get the cheap 20W50 and then drain it out and install the PP 5W30 or you can stop buying oil at all and just use their 5W40. I have no idea about the quality of UAE 5W40 but I would guess that they probably buy their additive chemistry from someone else like Lubrizol,Ornite,Exxon/Mobil,BP etc......They more then likely use the same additive package for all their oils from 20W50 to 5W40 to keep cost down. I would use the 5W40 personly. I use 5W40 in Michigan often in vechiles that do not recomend anyting other then 5W30 and all is well! In that environment 5W30 would be my last choice but if I was going to use a 5W30 it would have to be ester based like Redline,Motul,Penrite,Fuchs,Total Quartz,NEO etc......PP is not that great of a synthetic in the USA at least and has a lot of GIII in it and a pretty high NOAK loss rate. I just would not trust it in the heat that you see in your environment.

I agree that the dealership has an unfair advantage because they can dangle the warranty carrot over your head if you get too loud and out of hand.


To be honest, since the customer is the one paying for the service and owns the vehicle, they naturally have the choice to pay for what they want - you cannot force someone to buy something. Telling them they will lose warranty, on something they have paid for, because you are not buying their oils is bad business practice at best.

UAE sourced lubricants, from experience, are rubbish at best. The average engine life is 180,000 km (112,500 miles) here before an overhaul, thanks a heap to these oils, and I've seen first hand what they have done to my engine (used every UAE sourced oil on the market). A friend of mine with a '07 Tahoe Z71 and the 5.3L has used nothing but the said BP Visco 3000 20W-50 for the first 50,000 km (31,250 miles) of its life. Pull open the valve cover and you can lift sludge out with a spoon. Considering this is a $45,000 vehicle, I want to do my best so it does not end up the same way.

As for why I chose PP 5W-30, the fact that it is a synthetic has nothing to do with my choice to be honest. It's the only 5W-30 on the market that meets GM 6094M spec. Going by the OLM and a Group III synthetic would be a safe bet as well IMO.

I personally use Mobil 1 0W-40 and Fuchs Titan SuperSyn LongLife 5W-30 as my choice of synthetics.