Originally Posted By: Olas
we get some extremely cold winters here in the UK
Where?
we get some extremely cold winters here in the UK
Where?
Gas Line Antifreeze?
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Scotland is regularly colder than -20 Celsius, but those sub -20's have been as far south as the Midlands.
I don't know what that equates to in Farenheit but it feels cold enough for me
I don't know what that equates to in Farenheit but it feels cold enough for me
The reason ETOH is used in gasoline is because it is derived from biological starch and sugar feedstocks (grain or sugarcane). Isopropyl alcohol is not. And BTW, IPA is just as hygroscopic as is ETOH. Neither one "combines" with water molecules; it solubilizes water in gasoline.
And you think if the gasoline had 10% isopropyl alcohol it wouldn't have the same "problems" as 10% ethanol?
Originally Posted By: 2KBMW
Look at some of the gas treatments, fuel injector cleaners, and fuel stabilizers
and even products like Sea Foam and you will see that they contain Isopropyl Alcohol.
Why would they if 99% of all gasoline contains up to 10% Ethanol? Ever wonder why so many people have problems with their small gas engines and even marine engines?
What I read is that Ethanol is hygroscopic and absorbs water which leads to water condensation inside fuel tanks, fuel lines etc. Isopropyl alcohol will help to absorb system moisture. Isopropyl-based additives will combine with the water molecules and remove the moisture through the combustion chamber.
So to answer the OP's question, the gas line antifreeze you buy will most likely contain Isopropyl or Methyl alcohol which is not the same as Ethanol.
And you think if the gasoline had 10% isopropyl alcohol it wouldn't have the same "problems" as 10% ethanol?
Originally Posted By: 2KBMW
Look at some of the gas treatments, fuel injector cleaners, and fuel stabilizers
and even products like Sea Foam and you will see that they contain Isopropyl Alcohol.
Why would they if 99% of all gasoline contains up to 10% Ethanol? Ever wonder why so many people have problems with their small gas engines and even marine engines?
What I read is that Ethanol is hygroscopic and absorbs water which leads to water condensation inside fuel tanks, fuel lines etc. Isopropyl alcohol will help to absorb system moisture. Isopropyl-based additives will combine with the water molecules and remove the moisture through the combustion chamber.
So to answer the OP's question, the gas line antifreeze you buy will most likely contain Isopropyl or Methyl alcohol which is not the same as Ethanol.
You mean if the water level decreases, right? This works as long as the ETOH/gasoline mixture is not saturated. I recall reading somewhere that the maximum amount of water a 10% ETOH/gasoline mixture will dissolve is about 0.5 volume percent. So yes, it will work but it depends on the amount of water already present in the mixture. If it is already saturated then no more water will dissolve even though the gasoline has ethanol present. Your test is an indirect one, I don't know of any simple direct test other than some specialized kit or by infrared spectroscopy.
As long as there is little or no water present already your method would work up to the saturation point. Most gasoline has very little water, BTW.
Originally Posted By: tony1679
Simple, pour "x" amount of water into a graduated cylinder. Note where the water level is. Then add "y" amount of fuel. Seal and shake, then wait 1 minute. Water and gasoline do not mix, so if the water level rises it means ethanol is present. Obviously this is the simple explanation, and this is not exactly scientific, but it gives you an idea. With a little math you can actually test the percentage of ethanol, if present.
As long as there is little or no water present already your method would work up to the saturation point. Most gasoline has very little water, BTW.
Originally Posted By: tony1679
Simple, pour "x" amount of water into a graduated cylinder. Note where the water level is. Then add "y" amount of fuel. Seal and shake, then wait 1 minute. Water and gasoline do not mix, so if the water level rises it means ethanol is present. Obviously this is the simple explanation, and this is not exactly scientific, but it gives you an idea. With a little math you can actually test the percentage of ethanol, if present.
Originally Posted By: Olas
Scotland is regularly colder than -20 Celsius, but those sub -20's have been as far south as the Midlands.
I don't know what that equates to in Farenheit but it feels cold enough for me
Thats not really cold, Germany can get cold too but it would be very very rare to get -20c (coldest i can remember was back in 86 in Nürnberg was -23c).
Some guys in Canada deal with much colder temps.
Scotland is regularly colder than -20 Celsius, but those sub -20's have been as far south as the Midlands.
I don't know what that equates to in Farenheit but it feels cold enough for me
Thats not really cold, Germany can get cold too but it would be very very rare to get -20c (coldest i can remember was back in 86 in Nürnberg was -23c).
Some guys in Canada deal with much colder temps.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
The reason ETOH is used in gasoline is because it is derived from biological starch and sugar feedstocks (grain or sugarcane). Isopropyl alcohol is not. And BTW, IPA is just as hygroscopic as is ETOH. Neither one "combines" with water molecules; it solubilizes water in gasoline.
And you think if the gasoline had 10% isopropyl alcohol it wouldn't have the same "problems" as 10% ethanol?
Originally Posted By: 2KBMW
Look at some of the gas treatments, fuel injector cleaners, and fuel stabilizers
and even products like Sea Foam and you will see that they contain Isopropyl Alcohol.
Why would they if 99% of all gasoline contains up to 10% Ethanol? Ever wonder why so many people have problems with their small gas engines and even marine engines?
What I read is that Ethanol is hygroscopic and absorbs water which leads to water condensation inside fuel tanks, fuel lines etc. Isopropyl alcohol will help to absorb system moisture. Isopropyl-based additives will combine with the water molecules and remove the moisture through the combustion chamber.
So to answer the OP's question, the gas line antifreeze you buy will most likely contain Isopropyl or Methyl alcohol which is not the same as Ethanol.
The OP asked a question about gas line antifreeze. This is what I have read on the differences between Ethanol and Isopropyl. One is used in 10% or higher amounts to reduce emissions, the other used in very small amounts to help clean, stabilize and absorb moisture. I may be wrong but that is how I understand it to be and I'm only trying to help.
The reason ETOH is used in gasoline is because it is derived from biological starch and sugar feedstocks (grain or sugarcane). Isopropyl alcohol is not. And BTW, IPA is just as hygroscopic as is ETOH. Neither one "combines" with water molecules; it solubilizes water in gasoline.
And you think if the gasoline had 10% isopropyl alcohol it wouldn't have the same "problems" as 10% ethanol?
Originally Posted By: 2KBMW
Look at some of the gas treatments, fuel injector cleaners, and fuel stabilizers
and even products like Sea Foam and you will see that they contain Isopropyl Alcohol.
Why would they if 99% of all gasoline contains up to 10% Ethanol? Ever wonder why so many people have problems with their small gas engines and even marine engines?
What I read is that Ethanol is hygroscopic and absorbs water which leads to water condensation inside fuel tanks, fuel lines etc. Isopropyl alcohol will help to absorb system moisture. Isopropyl-based additives will combine with the water molecules and remove the moisture through the combustion chamber.
So to answer the OP's question, the gas line antifreeze you buy will most likely contain Isopropyl or Methyl alcohol which is not the same as Ethanol.
The OP asked a question about gas line antifreeze. This is what I have read on the differences between Ethanol and Isopropyl. One is used in 10% or higher amounts to reduce emissions, the other used in very small amounts to help clean, stabilize and absorb moisture. I may be wrong but that is how I understand it to be and I'm only trying to help.
It's relative to what you've experienced though, eh? -41 in Lahti, Finland was the coldest temp I've ever experienced, and I'm in no rich to do it again!
True enough, i was in Tampere one Christmas and it was colder than a witches hand. Still never needed gas line antifreeze though.
Originally Posted By: 2KBMW
Originally Posted By: kschachn
The reason ETOH is used in gasoline is because it is derived from biological starch and sugar feedstocks (grain or sugarcane). Isopropyl alcohol is not. And BTW, IPA is just as hygroscopic as is ETOH. Neither one "combines" with water molecules; it solubilizes water in gasoline.
And you think if the gasoline had 10% isopropyl alcohol it wouldn't have the same "problems" as 10% ethanol?
Originally Posted By: 2KBMW
Look at some of the gas treatments, fuel injector cleaners, and fuel stabilizers
and even products like Sea Foam and you will see that they contain Isopropyl Alcohol.
Why would they if 99% of all gasoline contains up to 10% Ethanol? Ever wonder why so many people have problems with their small gas engines and even marine engines?
What I read is that Ethanol is hygroscopic and absorbs water which leads to water condensation inside fuel tanks, fuel lines etc. Isopropyl alcohol will help to absorb system moisture. Isopropyl-based additives will combine with the water molecules and remove the moisture through the combustion chamber.
So to answer the OP's question, the gas line antifreeze you buy will most likely contain Isopropyl or Methyl alcohol which is not the same as Ethanol.
The OP asked a question about gas line antifreeze. This is what I have read on the differences between Ethanol and Isopropyl. One is used in 10% or higher amounts to reduce emissions, the other used in very small amounts to help clean, stabilize and absorb moisture. I may be wrong but that is how I understand it to be and I'm only trying to help.
Ethanol was originally used to reduce emissions but since the days of fuel injected computer controlled engines that is no long a valid reason. Now it is just a grand money machine.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
The reason ETOH is used in gasoline is because it is derived from biological starch and sugar feedstocks (grain or sugarcane). Isopropyl alcohol is not. And BTW, IPA is just as hygroscopic as is ETOH. Neither one "combines" with water molecules; it solubilizes water in gasoline.
And you think if the gasoline had 10% isopropyl alcohol it wouldn't have the same "problems" as 10% ethanol?
Originally Posted By: 2KBMW
Look at some of the gas treatments, fuel injector cleaners, and fuel stabilizers
and even products like Sea Foam and you will see that they contain Isopropyl Alcohol.
Why would they if 99% of all gasoline contains up to 10% Ethanol? Ever wonder why so many people have problems with their small gas engines and even marine engines?
What I read is that Ethanol is hygroscopic and absorbs water which leads to water condensation inside fuel tanks, fuel lines etc. Isopropyl alcohol will help to absorb system moisture. Isopropyl-based additives will combine with the water molecules and remove the moisture through the combustion chamber.
So to answer the OP's question, the gas line antifreeze you buy will most likely contain Isopropyl or Methyl alcohol which is not the same as Ethanol.
The OP asked a question about gas line antifreeze. This is what I have read on the differences between Ethanol and Isopropyl. One is used in 10% or higher amounts to reduce emissions, the other used in very small amounts to help clean, stabilize and absorb moisture. I may be wrong but that is how I understand it to be and I'm only trying to help.
Ethanol was originally used to reduce emissions but since the days of fuel injected computer controlled engines that is no long a valid reason. Now it is just a grand money machine.
The last time I recall gas line antifreeze used in my family was my mom's short tripped 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 convertible. The taxis were on LPG, and between fuel injection and ethanol, there's been no need.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
You mean if the water level decreases, right? This works as long as the ETOH/gasoline mixture is not saturated. I recall reading somewhere that the maximum amount of water a 10% ETOH/gasoline mixture will dissolve is about 0.5 volume percent. So yes, it will work but it depends on the amount of water already present in the mixture. If it is already saturated then no more water will dissolve even though the gasoline has ethanol present. Your test is an indirect one, I don't know of any simple direct test other than some specialized kit or by infrared spectroscopy.
As long as there is little or no water present already your method would work up to the saturation point. Most gasoline has very little BTW.
As I stated, this is not exactly scientific. Of course it is not 100% accurate. Neither is the pill. Lol. But no, the water level should RISE because if ethanol is present, it will "mix" with the water, and water is "heavier" than gasoline. Therefore it will sink with the water and be "read" with the water level.
At least that's what I was taught. I could be wrong.
You mean if the water level decreases, right? This works as long as the ETOH/gasoline mixture is not saturated. I recall reading somewhere that the maximum amount of water a 10% ETOH/gasoline mixture will dissolve is about 0.5 volume percent. So yes, it will work but it depends on the amount of water already present in the mixture. If it is already saturated then no more water will dissolve even though the gasoline has ethanol present. Your test is an indirect one, I don't know of any simple direct test other than some specialized kit or by infrared spectroscopy.
As long as there is little or no water present already your method would work up to the saturation point. Most gasoline has very little BTW.
As I stated, this is not exactly scientific. Of course it is not 100% accurate. Neither is the pill. Lol. But no, the water level should RISE because if ethanol is present, it will "mix" with the water, and water is "heavier" than gasoline. Therefore it will sink with the water and be "read" with the water level.
At least that's what I was taught. I could be wrong.
Well I thought that through a bit more and no, it can't work that way. Ethanol is highly soluble in gasoline (considering that E10, E15 and E85 are all sold it may be soluble at all concentration levels but I don't know), but water is only partially soluble in gasoline. The ethanol solubilizes the water up to the saturation point of the mixture. It does not phase separate the water from the gasoline, that would be counter-productive? Think about it - if the effect of "gas dry" was to pull the water out of solution from the gasoline, what good would it do? You don't want it phase separated, you want it in solution so it doesn't freeze and block a line.
And whether or not water is heavier than gasoline is irrelevant up to the saturation point. A solution does not separate due to the specific gravity of the solute.
Originally Posted By: tony1679
As I stated, this is not exactly scientific. Of course it is not 100% accurate. Neither is the pill. Lol. But no, the water level should RISE because if ethanol is present, it will "mix" with the water, and water is "heavier" than gasoline. Therefore it will sink with the water and be "read" with the water level.
At least that's what I was taught. I could be wrong.
And whether or not water is heavier than gasoline is irrelevant up to the saturation point. A solution does not separate due to the specific gravity of the solute.
Originally Posted By: tony1679
As I stated, this is not exactly scientific. Of course it is not 100% accurate. Neither is the pill. Lol. But no, the water level should RISE because if ethanol is present, it will "mix" with the water, and water is "heavier" than gasoline. Therefore it will sink with the water and be "read" with the water level.
At least that's what I was taught. I could be wrong.
And water-saturated gasoline. How do you dehydrate the gasoline?
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Add enough water to ethanol laced gas and it will separated. You can easily make 100% gas out of E10 this way.
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Add enough water to ethanol laced gas and it will separated. You can easily make 100% gas out of E10 this way.
No, that's not what I meant. I meant how do you remove the water that is dissolved in the gasoline?
And yes, you can remove the majority of the ethanol with a large excess of water. The partial pressure of the ETOH in the water will equal the partial pressure in the gasoline, so with a large excess of water you can remove most of the ethanol. But in the experiment described earlier (to determine the concentration of ETOH in gasoline) it will not work. Like I mentioned, if it did then all the gas dry products would have the opposite effect than intended. With a large excess of water it is no longer a mixture of ETOH in gasoline, the gasoline and the ETOH are now the solutes.
Here is the paper I saw earlier and couldn't find. It touches on what you are talking about.
http://epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
I did it in a measuring cylinder so the gas is easily poured off.
And yes, you can remove the majority of the ethanol with a large excess of water. The partial pressure of the ETOH in the water will equal the partial pressure in the gasoline, so with a large excess of water you can remove most of the ethanol. But in the experiment described earlier (to determine the concentration of ETOH in gasoline) it will not work. Like I mentioned, if it did then all the gas dry products would have the opposite effect than intended. With a large excess of water it is no longer a mixture of ETOH in gasoline, the gasoline and the ETOH are now the solutes.
Here is the paper I saw earlier and couldn't find. It touches on what you are talking about.
http://epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
I did it in a measuring cylinder so the gas is easily poured off.
In 30 years of driving I only used dry gas once. I have experienced some very cold winters as well with never a problem.
The one time I used dry gas was when my son was four, I was washing the car, then took a break to take a phone call. He decided he would do me a favor by filling up the gas tank with the garden hose. I only had 1/4 tank in the truck and he filled it to the top to the point of splashing gas on his face and burning his eyes. After flushing my sons eyes out for 15 minutes, I handed him over to my wife to take him to the urgent care. I drained all the gas (and mostly water) from the tank. I rode my bike to the auto parts store and picked up some dry gas. I poured it in with 5 gallons of premium. The truck started up and never skipped a beat. That was over 100,000 miles ago and hadn't had a problem since.
Bottom line: I usually never use gas line antifreeze or dry gas, but I'm glad its on the shelf at the local auto parts store.
The one time I used dry gas was when my son was four, I was washing the car, then took a break to take a phone call. He decided he would do me a favor by filling up the gas tank with the garden hose. I only had 1/4 tank in the truck and he filled it to the top to the point of splashing gas on his face and burning his eyes. After flushing my sons eyes out for 15 minutes, I handed him over to my wife to take him to the urgent care. I drained all the gas (and mostly water) from the tank. I rode my bike to the auto parts store and picked up some dry gas. I poured it in with 5 gallons of premium. The truck started up and never skipped a beat. That was over 100,000 miles ago and hadn't had a problem since.
Bottom line: I usually never use gas line antifreeze or dry gas, but I'm glad its on the shelf at the local auto parts store.
Most of these products contain either methanol or isopropanol. My understanding is that either is actually more effective as a gas-line antifreeze than ethanol. I've heard the best selling gas line antifreeze in the US is HEET in the yellow bottle, which contains methanol. Then it's ISO-HEET (isopropanol) in the red bottle.
Methanol supposedly goes straight to the bottom, which is beneficial since water is heavier than gasoline.
The biggest issue with methanol is that it corrodes certain metals and plastics that might be in the fuel system. They require a boatload of corrosion inhibitors to make it safe to pour into a gas tank.
Ethanol does help to a point, but apparently serious issues may mean that a methanol or isopropanol based additive is needed to prevent damage.
Here's one shop's take:
http://www.ldgautomotive.com/gas line drier.html
Methanol supposedly goes straight to the bottom, which is beneficial since water is heavier than gasoline.
The biggest issue with methanol is that it corrodes certain metals and plastics that might be in the fuel system. They require a boatload of corrosion inhibitors to make it safe to pour into a gas tank.
Ethanol does help to a point, but apparently serious issues may mean that a methanol or isopropanol based additive is needed to prevent damage.
Here's one shop's take:
http://www.ldgautomotive.com/gas line drier.html
Yeah, the bolded statement from that site is completely bogus.
Quote:
Now to specifically answer number 2, what type of fuel drier should I use. My suggestion would be to use Isopropyl Alcohol based fuel line driers. Not that you cannot use Methanol based, but the benefits are better with Isopropyl. As mentioned above, Ethanol does absorb the water and keep it from freezing. However, the treated water will still sit in the bottom of the tank and accumulate. The Isopropyl additive will act on the water and cause it to become soluble in gas, meaning it will mix with the gas and leave the tank.
So is this one:
Quote:
As soon as you switch back to E10 gasoline, Isopropyl based driers should be used to remove any water saturated Ethanol that is remaining in the bottom of the tank.
There is no such thing as water saturated ethanol. Water is completely miscible in ethanol. Once again the only determining factor would be the concentration of alcohol in the gasoline. The guy keeps talking about alcohols being saturated with water which is meaningless.
Quote:
Ethanol absorbs water and holds onto it keeping it separate from the gasoline.
No, it isn't separate. It solubilizes the water in gasoline. It is not separate, it is in solution.
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Most of these products contain either methanol or isopropanol. My understanding is that either is actually more effective as a gas-line antifreeze than ethanol. I've heard the best selling gas line antifreeze in the US is HEET in the yellow bottle, which contains methanol. Then it's ISO-HEET (isopropanol) in the red bottle.
Methanol supposedly goes straight to the bottom, which is beneficial since water is heavier than gasoline.
The biggest issue with methanol is that it corrodes certain metals and plastics that might be in the fuel system. They require a boatload of corrosion inhibitors to make it safe to pour into a gas tank.
Ethanol does help to a point, but apparently serious issues may mean that a methanol or isopropanol based additive is needed to prevent damage.
Here's one shop's take:
http://www.ldgautomotive.com/gas line drier.html
Quote:
Now to specifically answer number 2, what type of fuel drier should I use. My suggestion would be to use Isopropyl Alcohol based fuel line driers. Not that you cannot use Methanol based, but the benefits are better with Isopropyl. As mentioned above, Ethanol does absorb the water and keep it from freezing. However, the treated water will still sit in the bottom of the tank and accumulate. The Isopropyl additive will act on the water and cause it to become soluble in gas, meaning it will mix with the gas and leave the tank.
So is this one:
Quote:
As soon as you switch back to E10 gasoline, Isopropyl based driers should be used to remove any water saturated Ethanol that is remaining in the bottom of the tank.
There is no such thing as water saturated ethanol. Water is completely miscible in ethanol. Once again the only determining factor would be the concentration of alcohol in the gasoline. The guy keeps talking about alcohols being saturated with water which is meaningless.
Quote:
Ethanol absorbs water and holds onto it keeping it separate from the gasoline.
No, it isn't separate. It solubilizes the water in gasoline. It is not separate, it is in solution.
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Most of these products contain either methanol or isopropanol. My understanding is that either is actually more effective as a gas-line antifreeze than ethanol. I've heard the best selling gas line antifreeze in the US is HEET in the yellow bottle, which contains methanol. Then it's ISO-HEET (isopropanol) in the red bottle.
Methanol supposedly goes straight to the bottom, which is beneficial since water is heavier than gasoline.
The biggest issue with methanol is that it corrodes certain metals and plastics that might be in the fuel system. They require a boatload of corrosion inhibitors to make it safe to pour into a gas tank.
Ethanol does help to a point, but apparently serious issues may mean that a methanol or isopropanol based additive is needed to prevent damage.
Here's one shop's take:
http://www.ldgautomotive.com/gas line drier.html
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