Does a tiny rip matter?

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Originally Posted By: Cristobal
Does a tiny rip matter that much? Oil would be passing through the media to a small degree even if there was a rip somewhere. Particles would be trapped but at a much lower rate.


I will share a few observations and thoughts.

Some years ago I was involved in a project evaluating oil filters for an application that would require a Purolator L30001. From my notes I see that the media in the Purolator contained 51 pleats, was 79 inches in length, 4 inches wide, for a surface area of 316 square inches. The Pure One version had media 100 inches in length for a surface area of 400 square inches.

On every brand of filter in the project some imperfections were found on disassembly after use. Without exception there was *no* detectable functional deterioration from these minor imperfections based on oil analysis and wear on teardown.

The reason why is pretty straightforward.

Let's suppose I somehow get inside several of the two filters mentioned and cut 4" long rectangles of varying widths from the media before putting them on the application, starting at 1/4 inch in width and proceeding to 2 1/4 inch. The area of the rectangles would be from 1 square inch to 9 square inches.

For the L30001 that would involve from 0.32% of the surface area of the filter to 2.85%. For the Pure One PL30001 that would involve from 0.25% to 2.25% of the media surface area.

In other words, even a 4" long and 2.25" wide piece of media removed would leave 97-98% of the media intact and doing its job. You need a reasonably big hole in the media to really make a significant difference in its performance.

If you look at the pictures that have been posted you'll see these are not jagged holes being found in the media - media that is about the consistency of paper towel when wet with oil in the engine. If these voids were subject of significant oil flow they would not look like that. The flow available through media is vastly larger than the voids - remember that most of these filters can pass 2 gallons per minute or more - and so the voids remain substantially intact.

Based on the pictures posted I estimate the voids in the media to be about a total of one inch in length maximum and 0.1 inch in width, or about 0.1% of the total media area available for filtering. If I normally used these filters I would have not the slightest concern about my oil or my engine based on the pictures posted.

Of course Purolator ought to look into this and fix whatever is going on, but I would not get hysterical.
 
I disagree... While the filter surface area is only reduced by a small percentage, it ignores the fact that the oil will take the path of least resistance.

How much of the oil is actually getting filtered per pass is the real question.

Any tear in media will essentially make a full flow filter into a bypass filter.
 
Originally Posted By: Texan4Life
I disagree... While the filter surface area is only reduced by a small percentage, it ignores the fact that the oil will take the path of least resistance.

How much of the oil is actually getting filtered per pass is the real question.

Any tear in media will essentially make a full flow filter into a bypass filter.


I agree. With all the different brands of filters using another brand is very easy. When Purolator addresses the issue to my satisfaction, I have no problem buying their filters again. Until then no thanks Purolator.
 
A hole in the media would cause the bypass to open less on the filter (or pump).

We probably get more bypassing going on than we think.
 
Originally Posted By: Texan4Life
I disagree... While the filter surface area is only reduced by a small percentage, it ignores the fact that the oil will take the path of least resistance.

I cite actual experience, the flow rate of the media, the appearance of the tears, and simple mathematics. If you don't believe the facts, take a standard dripolator/Mr Coffee type filter, cut a 2" long 1/4" wide rectangle in it, and make a ten cup pot of coffee.

The area of the filter is roughly 48.7 square inches ((3.141593 x 7.75) x (3.141593 x 7.75)), the area of the cutout is .5 square inches (2 x .25), the void is just over 1% (.5 / 48.7) of the filter area.

I did it this morning and the coffee was indistinguishable from the taste and color it has every other day I make it without the cutout.

Filters do not work the way some posters think they work. You need a pretty big hole in a high flow filter to make a significant difference.
 
Originally Posted By: TomHunter


I did it this morning and the coffee was indistinguishable from the taste and color it has every other day I make it without the cutout.


Understood, but how much coffee grounds were in your cup?

The only purpose of the filter is to keep the grounds out of what we drink.
 
I WANT INTEGRITY IN MY FILTER! GEE, WE ALREADY HAVE BEEN BAMBOOZELED WITH FAKE "FULL SYNTHTEIC OIL" NOW ALL I NEED IS TEARS IN MY FILTER. I try to use wix in my Honda apps as they have base end bypass that limits dirty-side media washout on bypass - Im talking HOT high rpm bypass not cold bypass (which Im not sure it exists significantly in conservative running/warmup) as the mains drill impedance (outlet side) goes up significantly with cold oil.

OP:
Enough bench talk to a moot point, do a ISO efficiency test with particle counts on an integral unit vs damaged.
 
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I am not paying for a torn media, substandard product. A filter with a hole in is not meeting manufactures specifications. That means I am not getting what I paid for. Purolator should answer this and not try to minimize it as a non-issue.
 
Originally Posted By: JTK
Understood, but how much coffee grounds were in your cup?

Few, less than .00001 % of the grounds in the filter. That's the analogy, an oil filter and and a coffee filter are not exact models of each other. With each pass the oil filter would pick up additional particles.

The gentleman asked what the risks are, and the answer is basically none.
 
Originally Posted By: TomHunter
I did it this morning and the coffee was indistinguishable from the taste and color it has every other day I make it without the cutout.

How much pressure did your Mr. Coffee develop versus the oil system in a vehicle? I am not being sarcastic, but that comparison does not seem realistic, not to mention the "basket" holding the filter played a significant role in how many grounds made it into your coffee cup. How many grounds were in the bottom of the basket?
 
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
I am not being sarcastic, but that comparison does not seem realistic, not to mention the "basket" holding the filter played a significant role in how many grounds made it into your coffee cup.

Just as the center post plays a significant role in the oil filter. I provided an analogy, I did not say an oil filter is a coffee filter.

My experiential knowledge is that you need a pretty large hole in high flow filter media to make a significant difference in actual use. I also see no signs in the pictures of the kind of erosion around the faults in the media I would expect to see if significant bypass were taking place at those points.

The question was "Does a tiny rip matter that much?" and the answer is "No". The rest of the discussion is fascinating to those who think it is fascinating, but I am not talking to that and them.
 
Filter media doesn't offer up much resistance to flow.

But if you assume 20% of the flow returns to the engine unfiltered, what happens on the second pass through the filter?

And the next pass?

And the next pass?

And the next pass?

So, in a multi pass oil system in a conventional engine, all the oil quickly gets filtered even with 20% of the flow unfiltered at each pass.

Don't get me wrong, I'm buying other filter brands until the smoke clears on this issue.

But I put a Purolator Classic on one of my vehicles last week and am confident it is going to protect that engine through the OCI.
 
Tom, there is no science in your post. You can't simply measure the area of the hole, divide it by the area of the filter and then decide based on the low percentage that it's irrelevant. It ignores that the oil will follow the path of least resistance. The proportion of the area of the hole is not the same as the proportion of oil that will go through that hole. You have not quantified that, at least in your post here.

To say this is a non issue based on the information you've provided thus far is as irresponsible as making filters with holes in the media and selling them at full price knowing most consumers will never know.
 
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
Filter media doesn't offer up much resistance to flow.

But if you assume 20% of the flow returns to the engine unfiltered, what happens on the second pass through the filter?

And the next pass?

And the next pass?

And the next pass?

So, in a multi pass oil system in a conventional engine, all the oil quickly gets filtered even with 20% of the flow unfiltered at each pass.

Don't get me wrong, I'm buying other filter brands until the smoke clears on this issue.

But I put a Purolator Classic on one of my vehicles last week and am confident it is going to protect that engine through the OCI.


I have a decent stockpile of purolator filters and I'll happily use them. But if there is a pattern of damaged media... well... based on your example I would have to ask "Why am I paying full price for a filter that only filters 80% of the oil?" And what about the specs posted on the box and the website? Obviously those don't assume there is a hole in the media. Plus, what other corners are being cut? If the media isn't strong enough to handle the manufacturing process is it reasonable to assume it still filters to spec?
 
Originally Posted By: bepperb
Tom, there is no science in your post. You can't simply measure the area of the hole, divide it by the area of the filter and then decide based on the low percentage that it's irrelevant.

There's both math and science.

I separated this out from the thread in which the question was asked specifically to avoid the answer being overrun by folks with other agendas.

Explain how a significant portion of a lube flow can go through 1% or less of a media surface. I will accept math, citations to literature, just about anything other than your personal suppositions and uninformed impressions.

Then explain how this could occur over thousands of miles with essentially no erosion of the hole in a media with the consistency of a wet paper towel.

Then cite examples of bona fide measurements of this actually occurring in actual engines on vehicles or stationary equipment. I've been at this for more than a few weeks and I've never encountered it.

There are lots of threads for "the sky is falling" folks to beat their favorite dead horse to death. I started this one to answer a simple question.

The answer is and remain "No".
 
Originally Posted By: TomHunter

Of course Purolator ought to look into this and fix whatever is going on, but I would not get hysterical.


Smells like WD has returned.

Bottom line - oil filters should never develop tears in the media during use. It is not a design feature ... it is a failure.

I don't use products that fail.
 
Originally Posted By: bepperb
But if there is a pattern of damaged media... well... based on your example I would have to ask "Why am I paying full price for a filter that only filters 80% of the oil?"

Nothing I wrote would support the statement "only filters 80% of the oil".
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

Bottom line - oil filters should never develop tears in the media during use. It is not a design feature ... it is a failure.

I don't use products that fail.


That's how I feel, if Purolator gets their act together they might get my business again. Tears don't belong in the filter media, period.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
I don't use products that fail.

This thread deals with my answer to the question "Does a tiny rip matter that much?".

There are several threads in which what you personally use might be more topical, all of which you appear to be already involved in.
 
Originally Posted By: TomHunter
Originally Posted By: bepperb
Tom, there is no science in your post. You can't simply measure the area of the hole, divide it by the area of the filter and then decide based on the low percentage that it's irrelevant.

There's both math and science.

I separated this out from the thread in which the question was asked specifically to avoid the answer being overrun by folks with other agendas.

Explain how a significant portion of a lube flow can go through 1% or less of a media surface. I will accept math, citations to literature, just about anything other than your personal suppositions and uninformed impressions.

Then explain how this could occur over thousands of miles with essentially no erosion of the hole in a media with the consistency of a wet paper towel.

Then cite examples of bona fide measurements of this actually occurring in actual engines on vehicles or stationary equipment. I've been at this for more than a few weeks and I've never encountered it.

There are lots of threads for "the sky is falling" folks to beat their favorite dead horse to death. I started this one to answer a simple question.

The answer is and remain "No".







Go read the wikipedia article about the scientific method. It has more parts than Hypothesis -> Conclusion which is basically all that you have done.

This is my personal favorite of yours, though:

"Explain how a significant portion of a lube flow can go through 1% or less of a media surface."

I dunno... let me think... maybe the exact same way it got into (and eventually out of) the filter in the first place. I mean, how big exactly is the threaded hole in the bottom of the filters you use, because mine are pretty small. In fact usually six or eight tiny holes are all it takes for the oil to get in and one maybe 1/2" diameter hole to exit. So for all the science you've done it seems you've missed a pretty large point. If all that oil can exit a .25 square inch hole in the metal bottom plate how is it you don't think much of it can go through a .25 square inch hole in the filter media?
 
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