Are automakers getting overly cheap?

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Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: nepadriver
My expierence ...cars in general are safer, more reliable, and cost less, even when factoring in inflation, now get better mpg, and offer more options for the same price than the early 90s.


I don't see how a compact that cost as much today as a mid sized vehicle cost 10 years ago costs less, even factoring in inflation. Cost is cost no matter how you spin it...10 years ago my wife and I bought a brand new Mazda MPV LX for $21,600. Please tell me which vehicle sold today is available for that price that is even remotely comparable in any area.


Ummm , check the prices for everything as compared to 10 years ago.

Also make sure you're comparing apples to apples in terms of hp, MPGs, interior space, etc.


I have, repeatedly, and today's prices are not justified IMO. I couldn't touch a minivan today that's comparable to our MPV for less than $35K...yes they do come with more amenities, but nothing that justifies a 40% increase in price, not even when factoring in inflation...
 
What about those cheap belt driven CVT transmissions that's in some of the economy and mid size cars?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: GreeCguy
Last summer, I was thinking of buying a new truck but was disappointed with the quality of the trucks I looked at. Chevy, for example, was filled with what I consider cheap plastic parts, especially in the interior of the cab. I could see all that breaking or cracking in a matter of a few years. It convinced me to stick with what I've got.


+1. I often stop by the local Ford or Chevy lots with the slight idea that I might trade off the '04 in favor of a newer model truck, but everytime I do I'm disappointed. I feel like my 10 year old, 150K + mile truck is better put together then the brand new models, which is why I've been reluctant to sell. The new ones just have way to much plastic.

Originally Posted By: Olas
They started getting cheap and cutting corners when the market trend and buyer-mindset changed from 'making an investment' to 'buying a replaceable tool'

I agree with you, it sucks, but people want higher spec'd vehicles for the same or less cost. Corners have to be cut somewhere..


I agree, even though a vehicle is technally a "Replaceable tool", I don't like to have to replace my tools every few years because they have turned into junk.
 
Most cars aren't made too cheap so much as not thought through. I am willing to bet that a Mazda executive never drove a CX7 before production.

I hate touching the 'brushed stainless steel' accents only to find them warm to the touch. Or how a plastic shifter is made or molded plastic with a seam directly on top.
 
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Originally Posted By: GreeCguy
Last summer, I was thinking of buying a new truck but was disappointed with the quality of the trucks I looked at. Chevy, for example, was filled with what I consider cheap plastic parts, especially in the interior of the cab. I could see all that breaking or cracking in a matter of a few years. It convinced me to stick with what I've got.


^^This. The interiors of cars have gotten so ridiculously *cheap* and plasticy. No matter if it's on an econo appliance car or a high end/high dollar brand. They feel as if you could just rip them to shreds with your bare hands. When I get into one,I feel as if I have to be very careful as to not break anything.


Agreed. For a long trip over the holidays, we rented a 2014 Sienna SE from a local dealer (only 1200 miles on the odometer when we picked it up), and the interior plastics were way cheaper than those in my wife's 2001 Odyssey. The Odyssey's interior has held up well, while I can't see the new Sienna's doing the same.

It also got the same fuel economy on a highway trip that the Odyssey does in mixed driving. After driving the Sienna nearly 3000 miles, I couldn't see dropping the $31k sticker price on one.

These days, most consumer products are built to a price point instead of a standard.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: bigjl
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: nepadriver
My expierence ...cars in general are safer, more reliable, and cost less, even when factoring in inflation, now get better mpg, and offer more options for the same price than the early 90s.


I don't see how a compact that cost as much today as a mid sized vehicle cost 10 years ago costs less, even factoring in inflation. Cost is cost no matter how you spin it...10 years ago my wife and I bought a brand new Mazda MPV LX for $21,600. Please tell me which vehicle sold today is available for that price that is even remotely comparable in any area.


You are completely ignoring inflation.

A $21k car 10 yrs ago is likely on par with a $31k car today. Maybe more.

I paid £17k for a Seat Toledo tdi in '99

Same car today is now slightly less.

Consider inflation and that car should be twice that price.

When i joined the Ambulance service ky basic was £1200 a month '00

When i retired my basic was £2800 a month '11

My pension, only 20 years, is over £600 a month


You must have failed math. Inflation over the last 10 years does not equal doubling the price. Inflation has not risen 100% over the last 10 years...


$21k to $31k seems more like 50% inflation, but I could be wrong.
 
Originally Posted By: yesthatsteve
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Originally Posted By: GreeCguy
Last summer, I was thinking of buying a new truck but was disappointed with the quality of the trucks I looked at. Chevy, for example, was filled with what I consider cheap plastic parts, especially in the interior of the cab. I could see all that breaking or cracking in a matter of a few years. It convinced me to stick with what I've got.


^^This. The interiors of cars have gotten so ridiculously *cheap* and plasticy. No matter if it's on an econo appliance car or a high end/high dollar brand. They feel as if you could just rip them to shreds with your bare hands. When I get into one,I feel as if I have to be very careful as to not break anything.


Agreed. For a long trip over the holidays, we rented a 2014 Sienna SE from a local dealer (only 1200 miles on the odometer when we picked it up), and the interior plastics were way cheaper than those in my wife's 2001 Odyssey. The Odyssey's interior has held up well, while I can't see the new Sienna's doing the same.

It also got the same fuel economy on a highway trip that the Odyssey does in mixed driving. After driving the Sienna nearly 3000 miles, I couldn't see dropping the $31k sticker price on one.

These days, most consumer products are built to a price point instead of a standard.


3,000 miles over the holidays? Did you ever stop driving?
 
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: nepadriver
My expierence ...cars in general are safer, more reliable, and cost less, even when factoring in inflation, now get better mpg, and offer more options for the same price than the early 90s.


I don't see how a compact that cost as much today as a mid sized vehicle cost 10 years ago costs less, even factoring in inflation. Cost is cost no matter how you spin it...10 years ago my wife and I bought a brand new Mazda MPV LX for $21,600. Please tell me which vehicle sold today is available for that price that is even remotely comparable in any area.


Ummm , check the prices for everything as compared to 10 years ago.

Also make sure you're comparing apples to apples in terms of hp, MPGs, interior space, etc.


I have, repeatedly, and today's prices are not justified IMO. I couldn't touch a minivan today that's comparable to our MPV for less than $35K...yes they do come with more amenities, but nothing that justifies a 40% increase in price, not even when factoring in inflation...


But they do come with more amenities.

Odessey starting msrp is $28k
Caravan starts at $19995

These are msrp, anyone that pays retail on a minivan is a fool.

So inflation, volume, engine power, etc adjusted, it's more than doable.
 
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Exterior-wise,the stuff I hate the most which looks horribly cheap,is all the plastic faux-chrome trim. Is it just a chrome colored sticker on top of plastic? The goofy HUGE brand badges look completely stupid too. It's as if it's screaming "Look at me look at me,I'm a *insert brand name here*".


I find this to be a big thing with pickups. The Ford and Chevy trucks have a giant Ford or Chevy symbol on the tailgate. It seems to get larger every model year. Soon the pickup will no longer be a truck, but a giant Ford symbol with wheels and doors.
lol.gif
 
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Exterior-wise,the stuff I hate the most which looks horribly cheap,is all the plastic faux-chrome trim. Is it just a chrome colored sticker on top of plastic? The goofy HUGE brand badges look completely stupid too. It's as if it's screaming "Look at me look at me,I'm a *insert brand name here*".


I find this to be a big thing with pickups. The Ford and Chevy trucks have a giant Ford or Chevy symbol on the tailgate. It seems to get larger every model year. Soon the pickup will no longer be a truck, but a giant Ford symbol with wheels and doors.
lol.gif



Why not? Interior cabins of cars and trucks have already replaced phone booths.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
It seems to me that automakers typically decontent their cars as the model years go on. You can notice it on fairly subtle things through the lifecycle. So,entires technology offers some flashy new thing (like USB input) that I suppose gets traded for something else.

The makers want a nice offering to get the buyers in and interested, reviews positive, and get to the breakeven point on the investment. Past that, it's all about maximizing ROI.


It does seem that way. Why? I'm no businessman, but if I had a hit car that I didn't have to discount, I'd try and add in a little so as to run to daylight and cement brand loyalty.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: GROUCHO MARX
You are completely ignoring inflation.

A $21k car 10 yrs ago is likely on par with a $31k car today. Maybe more.

I paid £17k for a Seat Toledo tdi in '99

Same car today is now slightly less.

Consider inflation and that car should be twice that price.

When i joined the Ambulance service ky basic was £1200 a month '00

When i retired my basic was £2800 a month '11

My pension, only 20 years, is over £600 a month


You must have failed math. Inflation over the last 10 years does not equal doubling the price. Inflation has not risen 100% over the last 10 years... [/quote]

$21k to $31k seems more like 50% inflation, but I could be wrong. [/quote]

Check his post. He said the price should be double...
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: bigjl
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: nepadriver
My expierence ...cars in general are safer, more reliable, and cost less, even when factoring in inflation, now get better mpg, and offer more options for the same price than the early 90s.


I don't see how a compact that cost as much today as a mid sized vehicle cost 10 years ago costs less, even factoring in inflation. Cost is cost no matter how you spin it...10 years ago my wife and I bought a brand new Mazda MPV LX for $21,600. Please tell me which vehicle sold today is available for that price that is even remotely comparable in any area.



You are completely ignoring inflation.

A $21k car 10 yrs ago is likely on par with a $31k car today. Maybe more.

I paid £17k for a Seat Toledo tdi in '99

Same car today is now slightly less.

Consider inflation and that car should be twice that price.

When i joined the Ambulance service ky basic was £1200 a month '00

When i retired my basic was £2800 a month '11

My pension, only 20 years, is over £600 a month


You must have failed math. Inflation over the last 10 years does not equal doubling the price. Inflation has not risen 100% over the last 10 years...



No i think my "math" is pretty good on this.

Since $31k is not double $21k

You are taking a statement out of context to try to justify your position.

I said should be not is. And i was referring to the Seat Toledo.

Old model and new model.


The devil is in the detail
 
I don't take issue with plastic in my interior, it's when it starts showing up under my hood that I get antsy. Ford truck interiors rattle/squeak quite a bit, most of that attributed to the stiff suspension ride. Sometimes you just have to accept that when you buy a pickup truck, you get a pickup truck. By tradition they are utilitarian and favored by the blue collar middle class like myself. The frame/body quality on both my trucks are identical, and the cheap plastic interiors are easily disassembled which wins points with me. The '13 STX however has rubber hoses connecting the trans cooler, unlike my '08 XL which has metal lines/fittings. I don't think a little plastic amongst the body trim is all that bad, after all plastic doesn't rust. I still favor metal bumpers though.
 
Given the model bloat that has occurred the past 10 years, it's hard to say what's cheap anymore. My "compact" Cruze dwarfs 10 year old compacts, and is about the same size as a mid-00's "midsize" car. A "midsize" car like a Fusion is a giant beast that would have been called a "full-size" car 10 years ago based on interior volume and weight. And both cars have features on them that were only on high-end cars 10 years ago such as hands-free calling, Ipod integration, or USB ports.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: ronbo
Badges is garbage to me, just bling. Interior plastics, weight reduction and to keep price of car down.


I agree that badges that tell you the trim level, engine size, presence of abs/awd/etc are pretty ridiculous. I don't mind it if there is some integration of this stuff into the model name, like 318, 135, 240d, Q35, etc. but to have excess badges advertising this, especially on appliance and run of the mill vehicles that just aren't that great is just silly. I don't mind the model name and manufacturer badge on my car, but if they are too oversized, that too is obnoxious.

I've found car interiors to be better than they used to be. That said, excessive use of soft touch materials is not my cup of tea, as they crack/scratch/rip too easily. I'd prefer well finished hard materials without a coating. There are some out there.


I'm with you on the soft-touch plastic. To me, there is no such thing as premium plastic. The car reviewers like to go on and on about the perceived quality of plastic, for some reason. Then you test drive the car and find out that there is a thirty foot blind spot from the C-pillar that wasn't mentioned.
 
Originally Posted By: bigjl
No i think my "math" is pretty good on this.

Since $31k is not double $21k

You are taking a statement out of context to try to justify your position.

I said should be not is. And i was referring to the Seat Toledo.

Old model and new model.


The devil is in the detail


I wasn't referring to your $21k and $31K statement. I was referring to you saying the price should be double. Doubling the price would be a 100% increase. Understand?
 
Originally Posted By: GreeCguy
Last summer, I was thinking of buying a new truck but was disappointed with the quality of the trucks I looked at. Chevy, for example, was filled with what I consider cheap plastic parts, especially in the interior of the cab. I could see all that breaking or cracking in a matter of a few years. It convinced me to stick with what I've got.

Since they became "1500s" instead of "10s", when have the GM trucks not been filled with cheap plastic parts?

The old TBI C1500s are durable go forever trucks, but the interior is pure garbage. Okay, we are going to use the Sunbird's ridiculous little square radio and put the cassette player 2/3rds the way down the passenger side on the dash. And that stupid cheap blend door that makes them all sound like a Gremlin is trying to kick its way out of the HVAC system everytime you shut off the truck.

Much is made of the pre 96.5 F-150s, but the interior is terrible. Brittle hard plastics and that hideous burlwood pattern that seems like Ford intentionally made it look as fake as possible. Weird orange and blue window switches. The knee bolster is typically shattered wherever the owner tried to mount the brake controller originally because the plastic is so hard and brittle.

I'm still trying to figure out how the Rams actually got worse. The Daimler era trucks had the ultimate cheap polypropylene dash. Prior to that they had a tendency to disintegrate completely.

The Titan seems to be of regular Nissan quality. Still have that ugly mustard yellow backlighting on some displays but it seems no worse than an Altima.

Similarly, the Tundra seems to be a regular Toyota dash.
 
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
I find this to be a big thing with pickups. The Ford and Chevy trucks have a giant Ford or Chevy symbol on the tailgate. It seems to get larger every model year. Soon the pickup will no longer be a truck, but a giant Ford symbol with wheels and doors.


How is that any different from what they did in the 60s and 70s, with giant 10-inch tall lettering (in all caps) screaming "FORD" or "DODGE" or "CHEVROLET" on the tailgate?
 
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