Anyone think Ford is going away?

[CKN]

I wouldn't buy stock in any auto company, but I'd especially avoid GM and Volkswagen as they seem to be wasting the most money on EVs.

The last part of you statement is silly. Google is your friend. The industry as a whole will spend trillions of dollars on EV development by all manufacturers.

Exclusive: Automakers to double spending on EVs, batteries to $1.2 trillion by 2030

The world's top automakers are planning to spend nearly $1.2 trillion through 2030 to develop and produce millions of electric vehicles, along with the batteries and raw materials to support that production, according to a Reuters analysis of public data and projections released by those companies.

www.reuters.com

BTW-18% of new cars sold in California are EVs

Electric cars reach 18% of new car sales in California compared to 6% in the US

California announced that electric car sales represent nearly 18% of new car sales in the state compared to 6% for the whole of the US.

electrek.co

 

[CKN]

I'm curious what the fleet companies (e.g. ARI) will be giving their customers who only seek a mid-size sedan. For the longest time, Ford was their choice with the Fusions. Lately it has been the Chevy Malibus, so I wonder how much fleet business they've lost.

They will migrate to the Chevy Equinox. It's not a big stretch to do so.

 

[dnewton3]

The last part of you statement is silly. Google is your friend. The industry as a whole will spend trillions of dollars on EV development by all manufacturers.

Exclusive: Automakers to double spending on EVs, batteries to $1.2 trillion by 2030

The world's top automakers are planning to spend nearly $1.2 trillion through 2030 to develop and produce millions of electric vehicles, along with the batteries and raw materials to support that production, according to a Reuters analysis of public data and projections released by those companies.

www.reuters.com

BTW-18% of new cars sold in California are EVs

Electric cars reach 18% of new car sales in California compared to 6% in the US

California announced that electric car sales represent nearly 18% of new car sales in the state compared to 6% for the whole of the US.

electrek.co

Most, but not "all" of the industry.

Toyota has stated it's not spending any more time/money/effort on EVs; the tech and resources are not at levels they believe to be sustainable or financially viable. Instead, they are focusing on hybrids and ICEs. And Toyota is not known for making rash, uneducated decisions.

 

[dnewton3]

NO - I don't think Ford is going away ...

They have major quality issues to deal with; mostly driven from bad engineering choices coupled with CVD supply chain issues. But they also have a fairly loyal base, especially in trucks. Ford has been in dire straights before and come out fine; this will likely be no different.

 

[userfriendly]

But who would have thought Sears of all companies would have bit the dust.

Or Bud Light?

 

[thastinger]

3 out of 5 of our vehicles is Ford. But they're getting close to 20 years old. I've heard the Fords today though isn't the same. My sister in law works at one of the call in lines for Ford. She said they have a lot of tech issues.

We're about the same, have a 98 F150, 04 Escape, 13 GT500 and a Ford motor in an 09 Mazda 5. All vehicles have been rock solid at 150K each on average (except the GT500 at 22K). I do all the routine maintenance on all of them, helps to be informed of any "problem areas" like the transmission and PTU in the Escape aren't known to be robust units, but I have changed the PTU oil every 30K and I drain and fill 4Qts out of the transmission when I do the oil. I also never checked a plug in my 98 F150 but lots did, I believe torque specs are important so I always used them when changing the plugs in that motor.

I will say though, the Ecoboost line of engines isn't making me want to look around on the dealer lot for a replacement to any of our present vehicles. I'll likely never buy another truck though, the beds are too small these days for them to be much of a truck. Ford made mine too well and it does everything I need a truck to do.

 

[thastinger]

It doesn’t matter they too big to fail . They will get bailed out

Ford has never taken a government bailout nor declared bankruptcy.

 

[CKN]

Ford has never taken a government bailout nor declared bankruptcy.

Another "Internet Fallacy" that's not true-

Ford took $6B government loan in 2009 — and debt still haunts company

Ford isn't alone in the struggle, but it entered 2020 reporting a much smaller-than-expected profit than its competitors.

www.freep.com

 

[thastinger]

Another "Internet Fallacy" that's not true-

Ford took $6B government loan in 2009 — and debt still haunts company

Ford isn't alone in the struggle, but it entered 2020 reporting a much smaller-than-expected profit than its competitors.

www.freep.com

That isn't a bailout, it was a loan that has been fully repaid. The loan was to upgrade facilities so Ford could meet US mileage requirements, it is where the family of Ecoboost engines came from and the 10 speed transmissions.

FORD

By upgrading 13 facilities across 6 states, Ford was able to meet consumer demand for better fuel efficiency in more than a dozen popular vehicles.

www.energy.gov

 

[JeffKeryk]

Most, but not "all" of the industry.

Toyota has stated it's not spending any more time/money/effort on EVs; the tech and resources are not at levels they believe to be sustainable or financially viable. Instead, they are focusing on hybrids and ICEs. And Toyota is not known for making rash, uneducated decisions.

It seems Toyota is reconsidering that strategy.

New CEO Koji Sato is tasked with pulling the automaker out of the past and into the modern era. He recently announced plans to introduce 10 new EV models with 1.5 million in electric vehicle sales by 2026.

 

[CKN]

That isn't a bailout, it was a loan that has been fully repaid. The loan was to upgrade facilities so Ford could meet US mileage requirements, it is where the family of Ecoboost engines came from and the 10 speed transmissions.

FORD

By upgrading 13 facilities across 6 states, Ford was able to meet consumer demand for better fuel efficiency in more than a dozen popular vehicles.

www.energy.gov

The loans were TARP funds-they were below market interest rates-they got a hand from the government by not paying MARKET RATE for the loans. That's a handout.

 

[JeffKeryk]

That isn't a bailout, it was a loan that has been fully repaid. The loan was to upgrade facilities so Ford could meet US mileage requirements, it is where the family of Ecoboost engines came from and the 10 speed transmissions.

FORD

By upgrading 13 facilities across 6 states, Ford was able to meet consumer demand for better fuel efficiency in more than a dozen popular vehicles.

www.energy.gov

Of these loans are bailouts. In fact, even though many default, the US has realized a net gain on the loans.

 

[tcp71]

We're about the same, have a 98 F150, 04 Escape, 13 GT500 and a Ford motor in an 09 Mazda 5. All vehicles have been rock solid at 150K each on average (except the GT500 at 22K). I do all the routine maintenance on all of them, helps to be informed of any "problem areas" like the transmission and PTU in the Escape aren't known to be robust units, but I have changed the PTU oil every 30K and I drain and fill 4Qts out of the transmission when I do the oil. I also never checked a plug in my 98 F150 but lots did, I believe torque specs are important so I always used them when changing the plugs in that motor.

I will say though, the Ecoboost line of engines isn't making me want to look around on the dealer lot for a replacement to any of our present vehicles. I'll likely never buy another truck though, the beds are too small these days for them to be much of a truck. Ford made mine too well and it does everything I need a truck to do.

I had a 2009 F150 with the 5.4 and now have a 2016 with the 3.5 eco. The eco is miles ahead of the 5.4 in day to day driving and, especially, towing. While the eco has complexity, the current 5.0 with its cylinder deactivation and previous 5.0s with the oil burning plasma arc cylinder liners are not a better bet. Ford sells a lot more turbo'd ecoboost engines than normally aspirated.

 

[thastinger]

The loans were TARP funds-they were below market interest rates-they got a hand from the government by not paying MARKET RATE for the loans. That's a handout.

Not a bailout though...which was my original statement, no bankruptcy and no bailout.

 

[heavy260]

---

Not a bailout though...which was my original statement, no bankruptcy and no bailout.

I don’t think they’ve paid that $6billion “loan” back yet. This came from the department of energy to help develop fuel efficient engines for the new CAFE numbers back in the day. Nissan borrowed $1.6 billion and Tesla $465 million and paid the loans back. Then Ford went out and borrowed a pile of money for the scamdemic. They aren’t in as great of shape as people think.

2019 their top 6 execs were paid $70 million. Net profit was $47 million. They have all kinds of excuses as to why their net profit was low and that it means nothing because EBIT is more important because of investors. I’ve worked for company that placed priority on EBITDAE and let’s just say cooking the books was a thing and greed for management was the most important aspect of the business.

 

[ford250]

Another "Internet Fallacy" that's not true-

Ford took $6B government loan in 2009 — and debt still haunts company

Ford isn't alone in the struggle, but it entered 2020 reporting a much smaller-than-expected profit than its competitors.

www.freep.com

To develop EV technology
Not to bail out like GM did

 

[ATex7239]

I'm curious what the fleet companies (e.g. ARI) will be giving their customers who only seek a mid-size sedan. For the longest time, Ford was their choice with the Fusions. Lately it has been the Chevy Malibus, so I wonder how much fleet business they've lost.

Ours has definitely made the shift to GM. I’ll be in a Malibu once this Fusion is up. Kind of sucks for the van guys though, they all love the Transit.

 

[thastinger]

---

I don’t think they’ve paid that $6billion “loan” back yet. This came from the department of energy to help develop fuel efficient engines for the new CAFE numbers back in the day. Nissan borrowed $1.6 billion and Tesla $465 million and paid the loans back. Then Ford went out and borrowed a pile of money for the scamdemic. They aren’t in as great of shape as people think.

2019 their top 6 execs were paid $70 million. Net profit was $47 million. They have all kinds of excuses as to why their net profit was low and that it means nothing because EBIT is more important because of investors. I’ve worked for company that placed priority on EBITDAE and let’s just say cooking the books was a thing and greed for management was the most important aspect of the business.

According the the .gov site I originally linked to, it was fully repaid in Jun 22

 

[jeepman3071]

Definitely not... quality is Job #1.

 

[ESP9935]

Another "Internet Fallacy" that's not true-

Ford took $6B government loan in 2009 — and debt still haunts company

Ford isn't alone in the struggle, but it entered 2020 reporting a much smaller-than-expected profit than its competitors.

www.freep.com

This is a false comparison fallacy

The AVTM loans were available to any manufacturer that qualified.
GM and Chrysler did not qualify:

No DOE ATVM loan money for GM and Chrysler - Autoblog

The same rules that could potentially end up keeping Tesla from qualifying for low interest loans from the Department of Energy Advanced Technology Vehicle Manufacturing Incentive Program are also keeping General Motors and Chrysler out of the running. In order to qualify for the loan program...

www.autoblog.com

Ford's AVTM loan was repaid as of June 2022:

FORD

By upgrading 13 facilities across 6 states, Ford was able to meet consumer demand for better fuel efficiency in more than a dozen popular vehicles.

www.energy.gov

An $11.2 billion handout that will never be directly recouped and was required to keep a company from going out of business is a "bailout":

Oops! GM Bailout Cost Taxpayers Almost $1B More Than Estimated

The U.S. government lost $11.2 billion on its bailout of General Motors, more than the $10.3 billion estimated when it sold its remaining GM shares.

www.nbcnews.com

Ford was not bailed out by taxpayer dollars