For normal use the cheapest approved LL oil will be fine and dandy but if you like to drive hard then Redline is the best option for performance, protection and longevity.
Another "Help Me Choose Between These" Thread
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Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: MateoTorgy
It appears BMW Oil's website now indicates that BMW oil is "synthetic based." Apparently I've been running a semi-synthetic in a $55,000 car since March of last year.
Mystery as to why BMW doesn't publish a data sheet: solved.
You are running an oil that carries the specification that it states. It is irrelevant what the composition is and where it came from, because it passes performance specifications that also happen to be some of the most stringent in existence for a PCMO.
I really don't know why you are so fascinated with base stocks, since by the rest of your posts it's clear you don't understand even the basic points of what it means to carry a specification as opposed to "meets or exceeds". You're able to elucidate the fine points of an oil's composition?
And as far as a data sheet goes, BMW is under no obligation to do so. They are selling an oil, carrying their brand that is suitable for use in those vehicles that require the specifications listed on the container. That's all you need to know. I realize that sounds harsh but it's the truth. BMW isn't in the oil business. They sell an oil to their customers that is appropriate for their automobiles. End of story.
Mr Kschachn you are quite correct your post is quite harsh for a new member on BITOG of less than a week.
Are you able to elucidate the fine points of an oil's composition on this members behalf ?
I am waiting for you to enlighten me and others on this matter !
Originally Posted By: MateoTorgy
It appears BMW Oil's website now indicates that BMW oil is "synthetic based." Apparently I've been running a semi-synthetic in a $55,000 car since March of last year.
Mystery as to why BMW doesn't publish a data sheet: solved.
You are running an oil that carries the specification that it states. It is irrelevant what the composition is and where it came from, because it passes performance specifications that also happen to be some of the most stringent in existence for a PCMO.
I really don't know why you are so fascinated with base stocks, since by the rest of your posts it's clear you don't understand even the basic points of what it means to carry a specification as opposed to "meets or exceeds". You're able to elucidate the fine points of an oil's composition?
And as far as a data sheet goes, BMW is under no obligation to do so. They are selling an oil, carrying their brand that is suitable for use in those vehicles that require the specifications listed on the container. That's all you need to know. I realize that sounds harsh but it's the truth. BMW isn't in the oil business. They sell an oil to their customers that is appropriate for their automobiles. End of story.
Mr Kschachn you are quite correct your post is quite harsh for a new member on BITOG of less than a week.
Are you able to elucidate the fine points of an oil's composition on this members behalf ?
I am waiting for you to enlighten me and others on this matter !
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Originally Posted By: Olas
For normal use the cheapest approved LL oil will be fine and dandy but if you like to drive hard then Redline is the best option for performance, protection and longevity.
Yet, they do not have single approval.
For normal use the cheapest approved LL oil will be fine and dandy but if you like to drive hard then Redline is the best option for performance, protection and longevity.
Yet, they do not have single approval.
Base stock matters, but it's always important to remember how much you (and all of us) don't know... the same could be said for all things in life. All PAO, ester, Group III, GTL, AN, etc. base stock is not created equal, there are many types of each (some better, some worse, depending on application). This is evident in some of Mobil 1's group III based-oils that have the specs of a group IV/V based oil. I lean on the side of sticking with huge multi-billion dollar oil companies (Shell, XOM, BP) with R&D budgets the size of smaller engine oil companies (at least for my DDs, racing oil is a different story). Remember there is a ton that goes into oil outside of base-stock and zinc/phosphorous/moly/calcium/etc, and we have no way of knowing the qualities of those other ingredients.
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Originally Posted By: virginoil
Mr Kschachn you are quite correct your post is quite harsh for a new member on BITOG of less than a week.
Are you able to elucidate the fine points of an oil's composition on this members behalf ?
I am waiting for you to enlighten me and others on this matter !
Absolutely I cannot, and that is my point. The BMW oil carries Longlife-01 and to stress out that it is a "semi-synthetic" or "Group III" or "Group IV" or "Group V" is unwarranted, especially when such a large amount of incorrect information is being put forth as truth. The statement was made:
Originally Posted By: MateoTorgy
It appears BMW Oil's website now indicates that BMW oil is "synthetic based." Apparently I've been running a semi-synthetic in a $55,000 car since March of last year.
Which turns out is probably not true. But even if it was, so what? What difference would it make?
Mr Kschachn you are quite correct your post is quite harsh for a new member on BITOG of less than a week.
Are you able to elucidate the fine points of an oil's composition on this members behalf ?
I am waiting for you to enlighten me and others on this matter !
Absolutely I cannot, and that is my point. The BMW oil carries Longlife-01 and to stress out that it is a "semi-synthetic" or "Group III" or "Group IV" or "Group V" is unwarranted, especially when such a large amount of incorrect information is being put forth as truth. The statement was made:
Originally Posted By: MateoTorgy
It appears BMW Oil's website now indicates that BMW oil is "synthetic based." Apparently I've been running a semi-synthetic in a $55,000 car since March of last year.
Which turns out is probably not true. But even if it was, so what? What difference would it make?
The quote about it being "synthetic based" should be interpreted in the proper context, i.e. BMW is a German company and Group III products are not considered "fully synthetic" there. They are referred to as "synthetic technology" or "HC synthesis." Being that BMW's new oil is based on GTL base stock, it is not (under prevailing German law) considered fully synthetic. I would be willing to wager that is where the confusion stems from.
And, all synthetic oils are synthetic based.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
And, all synthetic oils are synthetic based.
How? GrIII is not synthetic based. GTL is not synthetic based.
And, all synthetic oils are synthetic based.
How? GrIII is not synthetic based. GTL is not synthetic based.
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Olas
For normal use the cheapest approved LL oil will be fine and dandy but if you like to drive hard then Redline is the best option for performance, protection and longevity.
Yet, they do not have single approval.
You can't get SM or SN with all that zinc, so it protects to well for the APIs liking. All those race teams with $100,000+ engines must run Redline because they know something about the importance of AW & MOFT & HTHS vs API spec that we don't know.
Something to do with not caring what CAFE think?
Originally Posted By: Olas
For normal use the cheapest approved LL oil will be fine and dandy but if you like to drive hard then Redline is the best option for performance, protection and longevity.
Yet, they do not have single approval.
You can't get SM or SN with all that zinc, so it protects to well for the APIs liking. All those race teams with $100,000+ engines must run Redline because they know something about the importance of AW & MOFT & HTHS vs API spec that we don't know.
Something to do with not caring what CAFE think?
Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Olas
For normal use the cheapest approved LL oil will be fine and dandy but if you like to drive hard then Redline is the best option for performance, protection and longevity.
Yet, they do not have single approval.
You can't get SM or SN with all that zinc, so it protects to well for the APIs liking. All those race teams with $100,000+ engines must run Redline because they know something about the importance of AW & MOFT & HTHS vs API spec that we don't know.
Something to do with not caring what CAFE think?
API? Olive oil in my kitchen can meet API.
I am talking about MB, BMW, Porsche approvals. It cannot meet or exceed BMW LL-01 or LL-04 if it cannot get approval, and getting approval is very cheap process.
And all those F1 teams and WRC teams are not using Redline, and they are much more expensive then 100K. So if it is best thing after sliced bread, why you cannot see Redline in Ferrari, McLaren etc.?
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Olas
For normal use the cheapest approved LL oil will be fine and dandy but if you like to drive hard then Redline is the best option for performance, protection and longevity.
Yet, they do not have single approval.
You can't get SM or SN with all that zinc, so it protects to well for the APIs liking. All those race teams with $100,000+ engines must run Redline because they know something about the importance of AW & MOFT & HTHS vs API spec that we don't know.
Something to do with not caring what CAFE think?
API? Olive oil in my kitchen can meet API.
I am talking about MB, BMW, Porsche approvals. It cannot meet or exceed BMW LL-01 or LL-04 if it cannot get approval, and getting approval is very cheap process.
And all those F1 teams and WRC teams are not using Redline, and they are much more expensive then 100K. So if it is best thing after sliced bread, why you cannot see Redline in Ferrari, McLaren etc.?
Should I take the racing analogy to everything for my car? What about other stuff such as tires? I should be using racing tires too?
And what about an interval, should I change out that Redline at the same OCI as those racers? If I do, will my engine last as long as theirs?
And what about an interval, should I change out that Redline at the same OCI as those racers? If I do, will my engine last as long as theirs?
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Should I take the racing analogy to everything for my car? What about other stuff such as tires? I should be using racing tires too?
And what about an interval, should I change out that Redline at the same OCI as those racers? If I do, will my engine last as long as theirs?
For tyres, yes. You need the maximum gripping ability I case you need to STOP! If your ABS kicks in your tyres aren't good enough, and if your ABS doesn't kick in your brakes aren't good enough.
Re oil I didn't necessarily say the OP should follow race team procedure, I eluded to the fact that there are cheapo oils with LL certification which will suffice for a daily commuter, but, not knowing the OP or his car or regime I also made him aware of the other end of the market which will, no doubt, protect better than the cheapest certified oil will. Simply a matter of base stock & formulation.
Should I take the racing analogy to everything for my car? What about other stuff such as tires? I should be using racing tires too?
And what about an interval, should I change out that Redline at the same OCI as those racers? If I do, will my engine last as long as theirs?
For tyres, yes. You need the maximum gripping ability I case you need to STOP! If your ABS kicks in your tyres aren't good enough, and if your ABS doesn't kick in your brakes aren't good enough.
Re oil I didn't necessarily say the OP should follow race team procedure, I eluded to the fact that there are cheapo oils with LL certification which will suffice for a daily commuter, but, not knowing the OP or his car or regime I also made him aware of the other end of the market which will, no doubt, protect better than the cheapest certified oil will. Simply a matter of base stock & formulation.
Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Should I take the racing analogy to everything for my car? What about other stuff such as tires? I should be using racing tires too?
And what about an interval, should I change out that Redline at the same OCI as those racers? If I do, will my engine last as long as theirs?
For tyres, yes. You need the maximum gripping ability I case you need to STOP! If your ABS kicks in your tyres aren't good enough, and if your ABS doesn't kick in your brakes aren't good enough.
Re oil I didn't necessarily say the OP should follow race team procedure, I eluded to the fact that there are cheapo oils with LL certification which will suffice for a daily commuter, but, not knowing the OP or his car or regime I also made him aware of the other end of the market which will, no doubt, protect better than the cheapest certified oil will. Simply a matter of base stock & formulation.
Did you ever actually drove on high performance tires?
You need 10 miles tow arm them up to operating temperature. So I have school 300ft from my home. Tell me how I am going to get max performance out of max performance tire in those 300ft in the morning when it is 60 degrees and be able to get maximum from brakes?
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Should I take the racing analogy to everything for my car? What about other stuff such as tires? I should be using racing tires too?
And what about an interval, should I change out that Redline at the same OCI as those racers? If I do, will my engine last as long as theirs?
For tyres, yes. You need the maximum gripping ability I case you need to STOP! If your ABS kicks in your tyres aren't good enough, and if your ABS doesn't kick in your brakes aren't good enough.
Re oil I didn't necessarily say the OP should follow race team procedure, I eluded to the fact that there are cheapo oils with LL certification which will suffice for a daily commuter, but, not knowing the OP or his car or regime I also made him aware of the other end of the market which will, no doubt, protect better than the cheapest certified oil will. Simply a matter of base stock & formulation.
Did you ever actually drove on high performance tires?
You need 10 miles tow arm them up to operating temperature. So I have school 300ft from my home. Tell me how I am going to get max performance out of max performance tire in those 300ft in the morning when it is 60 degrees and be able to get maximum from brakes?
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Should I take the racing analogy to everything for my car? What about other stuff such as tires? I should be using racing tires too?
And what about an interval, should I change out that Redline at the same OCI as those racers? If I do, will my engine last as long as theirs?
For tyres, yes. You need the maximum gripping ability I case you need to STOP! If your ABS kicks in your tyres aren't good enough, and if your ABS doesn't kick in your brakes aren't good enough.
Re oil I didn't necessarily say the OP should follow race team procedure, I eluded to the fact that there are cheapo oils with LL certification which will suffice for a daily commuter, but, not knowing the OP or his car or regime I also made him aware of the other end of the market which will, no doubt, protect better than the cheapest certified oil will. Simply a matter of base stock & formulation.
Did you ever actually drove on high performance tires?
You need 10 miles tow arm them up to operating temperature. So I have school 300ft from my home. Tell me how I am going to get max performance out of max performance tire in those 300ft in the morning when it is 60 degrees and be able to get maximum from brakes?
You choose your hardware based on conditions. Hot dry Tarmac might necessitate a slick where deep snow might require a winter tyre. Regardless of conditions, you need the tyre and brake that will stop you in the shortest distance.
Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Should I take the racing analogy to everything for my car? What about other stuff such as tires? I should be using racing tires too?
And what about an interval, should I change out that Redline at the same OCI as those racers? If I do, will my engine last as long as theirs?
For tyres, yes. You need the maximum gripping ability I case you need to STOP! If your ABS kicks in your tyres aren't good enough, and if your ABS doesn't kick in your brakes aren't good enough.
Re oil I didn't necessarily say the OP should follow race team procedure, I eluded to the fact that there are cheapo oils with LL certification which will suffice for a daily commuter, but, not knowing the OP or his car or regime I also made him aware of the other end of the market which will, no doubt, protect better than the cheapest certified oil will. Simply a matter of base stock & formulation.
Did you ever actually drove on high performance tires?
You need 10 miles tow arm them up to operating temperature. So I have school 300ft from my home. Tell me how I am going to get max performance out of max performance tire in those 300ft in the morning when it is 60 degrees and be able to get maximum from brakes?
You choose your hardware based on conditions. Hot dry Tarmac might necessitate a slick where deep snow might require a winter tyre. Regardless of conditions, you need the tyre and brake that will stop you in the shortest distance.
Hot dry tarmac? Where is hot dry tarmac except on race track? Where is surface so abrasive like on race track.
I had Michelin PSS on previous car, great tire, best IMO max performance, but there are compromises for daily driving in that tire too.
Same is with oils. Redline does not carry ANY important approval. I worked on oil approvals, it is dirt cheap to get it.
Also, let's say my BMW, its emission system is almost as expensive as engine. So if their oil has bit more SAPS and destroys DPF etc. then what? BMW never said it is OK to use, so I should base my decision on the fact that some guy runs 100K engine in some local redneck race and uses that oil? If I am going to base my decision like that, then I am using ultimate oil already, one that competes in F1.
I had Michelin PSS on previous car, great tire, best IMO max performance, but there are compromises for daily driving in that tire too.
Same is with oils. Redline does not carry ANY important approval. I worked on oil approvals, it is dirt cheap to get it.
Also, let's say my BMW, its emission system is almost as expensive as engine. So if their oil has bit more SAPS and destroys DPF etc. then what? BMW never said it is OK to use, so I should base my decision on the fact that some guy runs 100K engine in some local redneck race and uses that oil? If I am going to base my decision like that, then I am using ultimate oil already, one that competes in F1.
Exactly edy, race oils and street oils have different purposes in mind. Race oils have 1 primarily goal, protect the engine at all costs, with zero regard for emissions, and little regard for service life, sludge protection, fuel economy, etc. Street oils have to balance many competing goals, including emissions, fuel economy, and service life. Approvals like LL-01 give customers confidence that an oil can execute all of those competing goals in a manner the manufacture deems acceptable.
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Exactly edy, race oils and street oils have different purposes in mind. Race oils have 1 primarily goal, protect the engine at all costs, with zero regard for emissions, and little regard for service life, sludge protection, fuel economy, etc. Street oils have to balance many competing goals, including emissions, fuel economy, and service life. Approvals like LL-01 give customers confidence that an oil can execute all of those competing goals in a manner the manufacture deems acceptable.
That's what I told him in the first post. Driving like miss daisy only needs cheapo llo1. Sustained elevated track temps needs the stout protection of redline. 5 pages later we argued back round to where we started from
Exactly edy, race oils and street oils have different purposes in mind. Race oils have 1 primarily goal, protect the engine at all costs, with zero regard for emissions, and little regard for service life, sludge protection, fuel economy, etc. Street oils have to balance many competing goals, including emissions, fuel economy, and service life. Approvals like LL-01 give customers confidence that an oil can execute all of those competing goals in a manner the manufacture deems acceptable.
That's what I told him in the first post. Driving like miss daisy only needs cheapo llo1. Sustained elevated track temps needs the stout protection of redline. 5 pages later we argued back round to where we started from
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