Amsoil Injector Oil

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quote:

Originally posted by joee12:
After a couple of months, the oil pump failed and the motor locked up. When dad was dealing with the dealer, they asked him to show the receipts where he had purchased the oil for the boat. Joe

Though I think if push came to shove not having reciepts for the would not fly. They had oil that was in the resevour, that should have been sufficient! I'm sure a couple of calls to the area evenrude rep would have straightened out the dealer.

Remember dealers will be harsh up front, but then when you start yelling and cussing in their store, they usually give in. Same type of think Hapened on my F150 when I had a cracked rim. Only had like 10,000 miles on it, and they guy tried to blame me for 4x4'ing. I had to get a little nasty with him. But in the end, new rim!
 
My dad had a 2-stroke Suzuki motorcycle in the early 70s with an injection pump. He tried a couple of quarts of Klotz synthetic injector oil. Certified injector oil. Legal and everything. About 50 miles in, the injector pump died and the engine froze. The first thing out of the dealer's mouth was that it was the oil. They hadn't even looked at the bike yet. It didn't take much yelling to get the service manager to pull his head out of his nether region and bring in a new engine.

We can all tell horror stories about dealers and service folks that have big mouths and little clues. And people that know the truth, and know their rights, and know the laws, WILL Win every time. Occasionally, it will need a bit of legal help it gets really ugly, I suppose, but I've never seen a service issue go that far. Bottom line here is that service people and dealers are in business to make money. If they can weasel their way out of a service bill they will. But only if we let them. Because they have to have customers to sell things to. If we hold our ground, they'll 'get with the program'.

If it makes you happy to use a certified lube, that's Wonderful! It's your vehicle - do what makes you happy. But that doesn't make you any more superior to anyone that chooses to study the performance and make their decision based upon performance rather than certification.

Cheers all,
Andy
 
quote:

Originally posted by joee12:
...Who has ever been through the nightmare of having to deal with a boat dealer, especially on a warranty claim??...

...He would have been out of a motor...


I've seen the way boat dealers push their customers toward lubes. They don't say a thing about TCW3 - they say you have to use Yamalube with your Yamaha, and Johnson's lube with their Johnson. And you should use Johnson's 2-cycle oil with your engine, too. Don't say we didn't warn you...' That type of brow-beating is EXACTLY the reason for Magnuson-Moss. From the FTC's site:

"Finally, Congress wanted to strengthen existing incentives for companies to perform their warranty obligations in a timely and thorough manner and to resolve any disputes with a minimum of delay and expense to consumers . Thus, the Act makes it easier for consumers to pursue a remedy for breach of warranty in the courts, but it also creates a framework for companies to set up procedures for resolving disputes inexpensively and informally, without litigation."

And:

"...tie-in sales provisions are not allowed. Such a provision would require a purchaser of the warranted product to buy an item or service from a particular company to use with the warranted product in order to be eligible to receive a remedy under the warranty."

joee12, sorry man, but you really have no idea what would have happened if your dad didn't have receipts for his oil. All you can say for sure is what did happen. That's the type of faulty logic urban legends are made of.

I've seen dealers bend over backwards when a customer stood up and 'called his bluff'. Under Mag-Moss, breach of warranty is a FEDERAL offense. Not many dealers will have the 'nads to continue pushing when reminded of that.
 
I'm going to re post this again so others can see for themselves what it really says....

I think some clarity needs to be put out on the moss act issue.
Here is a summary of this law.
--------------------------------------------------
Federal Warranty Laws

1.The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (15 U.S.C. 2302(C))
This federal law regulates warranties for the protection of consumers. The essence of this law concerning aftermarket auto parts is that a vehicle manufacturer may not condition a written or implied warranty on the consumers using parts or services which are identified by brand, trade, or corporate name (such as the vehicle makers brand) unless the parts or service are provided free of charge. The law means that the use of an aftermarket part alone is not cause for denying the warranty. However, the law's protection does not extend to aftermarket parts in situations where such parts actually caused the damage being claimed under the warranty. Further, consumers are advised to be aware of any specific terms or conditions stated in the warranty(Like the statement in owners manual requiring api certified oils only) which may result in its being voided. The law states in relevant part:
“No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumers using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade or corporate name....” (15 U.S.C. 2302(C)).

This does not keep them from denying warr on the basis that the oil is not certified. It does keep them from discriminating against them by brand, trade or corporate name. It also provides for the consumer the option to use qualified oils that meet the api certifications, which gives the consumer many options thereby the manufacture can not be liable for violating this moss act as they have provided alternatives that do meet the specs as per api.

So, to use a non api certified oil, regardless of if it meets specs of not, can be voided. As for if one that has a certification, obviously has met the requirements at least once to receive that certification, then that is all they need no matter if it does meet of not now. Yeah, I know, who would want to use something that doesn't meet, but that's the way the game is played in corporate america.

Anyone that doesn't follow this, can be denied due to the api certification requirements by the contract(which btw, is the owners manual.) Point is, if you don't have to do what they require, then why should they have to do what you require by the contract? This is commonly called a breach of contract. Cut it anyway you want, you may win the battle with court, but the owner will lose the war because no matter how hard you try, it will cost you IF the Dealer wants to make you work for it. IMO, it is not a good idea to go against the warr requirements. It's just too simple to just do what is needed to avoid these headaches, which I have seen first hand, people who tried this. If you side with the oil makers stating it's not possible for them to do this, then you should get this in writing with the warr they will do IF for what ever reason, there is an issue for the improper use(like extending oil drain intervals beyond recommended drains) and or because of the api requirements listed so then if it comes to a denial, then you can wave that in the oil companies face.. Oh, bTW, make sure the dealer/distributor is giving you all the facts on this, as many independent dealers can say one thing but be mis understanding this and the oil company they rep for, holds themselves not responsible for their actions as they are not a direct employee of that company so the one that is telling you this, is the one you would have to take recourse on and many have very limited funds to cover such a claim.

What you'll notice in the manuals is not only do they state meet the api certs they even give you a neat little picture of the star or donut used on the bottles so to ensure a customer knows without a doubt what they require.
 
Thank you Bob. That is the point I have been saying all along. Use of a non certified oil will void your warranty.
 
Ben/blano: Bob posted links to Lubrizol earlier in this mess. Both state that the 2-stroke tests are completely performance-based. The only reference to ash was when they changed the REFERENCE oil (not the oil under test!) to a low ash because they experienced hot ring sticking when running the detergency tests on the Yamaha test cylinders. It doesn't say the oil under test has to be ashless or low ash. That specific test says that a lube under test passes when it does as well or better than the reference oil did in the same test.

You haven't been able to show me a single thing that suggests that any 2-cycle lube can't meet or exceed TC-W3 and JASO-FC.

With a broad-brush and no proof, you're saying you know more than the registered tribologists in Superior, WI, as well as their lab techs, and a certified lab here in San Antonio, and other labs.

Bob: Thanks for the Mossy details. I completely disagree with your analysis of what the owner's manual means when it shows the API donut. Here's why:

1996 VW Passat owner's manual. Page 134. Engine Oil. "...the following terms must appear on the oil container singly or in combination with other designations: Gasoline engine: "API Service SF or SG". Diesel engine: "API Service CD"."

On the next page is a diagram showing the API symbol and markings with keys to understanding what the items on the label mean. It's a TUTORIAL on the most common marking system seen in North America -- NOT a 'use this or you die' mandate.

I'm not a lawyer. Maybe I'd loose this is court. But I really don't think so.

I'm still waiting for Ben to quote me from one of his owner's manuals that he has to use TC-W3 lube.
 
Andy H, I appreciate your input, but let me sum up my post for you:

1) Boat dealers hassle people
2)Boat engines are very expensive
3) I don't have the time or patience to hassle with a dealer or go to court just to use an non-certified oil oil that performs better
4) while under warranty I used TCW3 certified oil
5) Now I use Amsoil Injector oil
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6)I am happy with Amsoil Injector Oil


And Andy, you are obviously a smart person, you seem to know a ton about this topic, but don't make assumptions about people that you know absolutely nothing about. I grew up around boats, I spent many years working at the same marina. I still spend many hours on boating boards and am very familiar with Magnuson-Moss and the fact that you don't have to run the manufacturer's oil in you motor. If you read my post you would have seen that I ran OMC, Mercury, and Pennzoil in my motor while under warranty. If you want to go spend 8 grand on a motor, run what the heck you want in it, it's your money. If you want to battle the boat manufacturer in court, go ahead, it's your time and money. I asked a simple question, and 85 posts later, I still don't truly know why Amsoil does not send their oil to the NMMA for certification. So I'll stick with my Amsoil injector oil, my plugs are clean, my engine doesn't smoke and does not over heat. I'll always have the peace of mind knowing that if the motor fails, I have no boat dealer or manufacturer to fight with because I am using a non NMMA certified oil
wink.gif
-Joe

[ January 25, 2003, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: joee12 ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by Andy H:
Ben/blano: Bob posted links to Lubrizol earlier in this mess. Both state that the 2-stroke tests are completely performance-based. The only reference to ash was when they changed the REFERENCE oil (not the oil under test!) to a low ash because they experienced hot ring sticking when running the detergency tests on the Yamaha test cylinders. It doesn't say the oil under test has to be ashless or low ash. That specific test says that a lube under test passes when it does as well or better than the reference oil did in the same test.

You haven't been able to show me a single thing that suggests that any 2-cycle lube can't meet or exceed TC-W3 and JASO-FC.

With a broad-brush and no proof, you're saying you know more than the registered tribologists in Superior, WI, as well as their lab techs, and a certified lab here in San Antonio, and other labs.

Bob: Thanks for the Mossy details. I completely disagree with your analysis of what the owner's manual means when it shows the API donut. Here's why:

1996 VW Passat owner's manual. Page 134. Engine Oil. "...the following terms must appear on the oil container singly or in combination with other designations: Gasoline engine: "API Service SF or SG". Diesel engine: "API Service CD"."

On the next page is a diagram showing the API symbol and markings with keys to understanding what the items on the label mean. It's a TUTORIAL on the most common marking system seen in North America -- NOT a 'use this or you die' mandate.

I'm not a lawyer. Maybe I'd loose this is court. But I really don't think so.

I'm still waiting for Ben to quote me from one of his owner's manuals that he has to use TC-W3 lube.


From my 1999 Johnson 115 owner's manual, page 8:

"You must use an NMMA-certified TC-W3 oil. Evinrude and Johnson brand oils are formulated by OMC to give best engine performance while controlling piston and combustion chamber deposits, provinding superior lubrication and ensuring spark plug life.

NOTE: failure to follow this recommendation could void the warranty if a lubrication-related failure occurs."

-Joe
 
Thanks Joe! Why did it take this long?
smile.gif


My comments to you weren't intended as a personal attack at all. Please accept my apology for presenting the thought in a way that attacked. Just pointing out that it's difficult to really know what 'might have been' if your dad didn't have receipts, or didn't use a certified oil. We can guess, but don't really know, and it's going to vary from dealer to dealer. Fear not - I take fresh looks at my decisions at times as well.
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One of the things that I've had to learn to deal with as a government employee is how words are used and the intent behind them. Case in point for us is the use of the words 'must' and 'could' in your warranty statement. Manufacturers want to use the strongest language possible so they have the strongest, most controlled, position in case of a future claim against them. I was somewhat surprised to see the 'must' in the oil cert. Notice, tho, that even if you don't use the certified lube, it only 'COULD' void your warranty, and only IF a proven lube failure occured. And that wording places the burden of proof for both the failure and the lube on the dealer/manufacturer's shoulders. This is consistant with a portion of Mag-Moss that says that dealers/manufacturers were "...to resolve any disputes with a minimum of delay and expense to consumers...".

(these are only my thoughts.) It would be easier for boaters if AMSOIL had their lube certified. But that double-edged sword would probably chase away the other users of the oil that run it in apps that specifically demand NOT using a TC-W3 lube, as has already been pointed out. That requires a company to put the same product in different bottles with different markings. This requires new boxes, new database entries, new price lists and paperwork, possibly another bottling line, more room in the warehouses, more people to process the additional product, etc. And that means the price for both products goes up. Instead, they test the product against the specs, stamp the labels appropriately, and sell at a slightly lower price for what is ultimately a 'single use' product.

And horror of horrors...blano's a Yooper...he could be my last remaining source of Volwerth's brats
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Thanks Andy!!! Maybe I got a little excited this morning(my daughter is teething and I am not sleeping well). If I took your comments as a personal attack, then maybe I read you wrong. It is obvious now that you did not mean any harm. You are a stand up person, and I respect you for your follow-up comments. Have a good day, Joe
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"Bob posted links to Lubrizol earlier in this mess. Both state that the 2-stroke tests are completely performance-based. The only reference to ash was when they changed the REFERENCE oil (not the oil under test!) to a low ash because they experienced hot ring sticking when running the detergency tests on the Yamaha test cylinders."
That part of the lubrizol site was actually reffering to the jaso standard as yamaha doesnt have atest engine that is part of the tcw3 standard. Your comparing apple to oranges. Face it, Amsoil lies. BTW base oils have nothing to do with ash content counter to what the lubrizol site says. Ash or sulfated ash refers to how much mettalic based detergeants/dispersants are in the formulation.

[ January 25, 2003, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: blano ]
 
All Right Blano. They could be bloody BMW cylinders for all it matters! They're performance tests and the test requirements are not state secrets. Now Lubrizol is part of a conspiracy with AMSOIL and Yamaha and - horror of horrors - BOB! Whatever.

Joe - teething I understand. We've got one of those little critters too. His first cold right at the 6 month mark. Remind me again why I did this at 40?
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Back to the cheerleaders and commercials..I mean the game...
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[ January 26, 2003, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: Andy H ]
 
Andy, you missed the point. The comment about ash was misquoted out of the section on jaso fc from the lubrizol site. The tc w3 test uses omc and merc test units. Yamaha test engines are used in the jaso tests. I edited out the name calling, not needed on here

[ January 26, 2003, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
 
Blano,

I'm still trying to figure out how you're reading the specs. I've found that the oils meeting the spec are low ash, but I can't find anything that says they *must* be low ash.

I had a chat with a tech support gent on whether AIO meets both TC-W3 and JASO-FC. TooSlick reported it correctly - the current formulation for AIO meets TC-W3 but not JASO-FC. It was an error on the spec sheet and the spec sheet is being rewritten.

While the low-/no-ash thing is still a mystery, what AIO was formulated for isn't any longer.

FWIW...the TC-W* specs haven't been valid since 1993. SO... Dealers can't hold your warranty hostage to TC-W3 any longer.
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(Sometimes I think I should be a paralegal, but there's only one of me...)

Andy

(blano, feel free to send the name calling off-list.
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"TooSlick reported it correctly - the current formulation for AIO meets TC-W3 but not JASO-FC. It was an error on the spec sheet and the spec sheet is being rewritten"
Thats quit ironic.
"FWIW...the TC-W* specs haven't been valid since 1993. SO... Dealers can't hold your warranty hostage to TC-W3 any longer. (Sometimes I think I should be a paralegal, but there's only one of me...)"
Thats total BS. Oils are still neing certified to tcw3 specs and will be for the near future. your warranty will aslo be void if you use AIO as it is not certified and never has been.

As far as the ash things goes. Prove me wrong. Find jaso fc or iso egd oil with out some sulfated ash or find a tcw3 oil with some. You wont in both cases.

[ January 28, 2003, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
 
blano - you were wrong at the beginning of this post and you are wrong at the end.

You started way back when saying Amsoil claimed AIO meets ISO-EGD. They never claimed that.

Then you go on and on about Amsoil claiming AIO meets JASO-FC. Amsoil's spec sheet for AIO is shared with ATC 100:1 oil. (This is where the unclarity kicks in) The claim is for ATC meeting NMMA TC-W3, API-TC, JASO-FC and AIO meeting NMMA TC-W3, API-TC.

So with you so frequently wrong can I call you a names? Never believe a word you write? I wouldn't think of such a thing. But you lost my trust.

Come on. Your hatred is showing.

PS Amsoil is NOT a pyramid scheme. So 0 fer 3.

[ January 28, 2003, 07:13 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
 
I think this has gotten so far off topic that it will be closed. It is serving no useful purpose in it's present form.
 
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