I would like to see some of this info you're pulling all these specs from.
Amsoil Injector Oil
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Bob, This link does agood job of explaining the differances between air cooled spec oils and water cooled spec oils. It isnt perfect, but its the only refferance of its type available online. The additive company sites are worthless as far as two cycle stuff is concerned.
http://www.goa-northcoastoil.com/tips/2cycleol.html
In case your wondering most of my knowledge on the subject was gained from Dr. David Redzous at Precision Automotive Research. He works hand in hand with Phillips 66 race fuel division blending new fuels and lubricants. He has worked with many Cart and nascar teams. Bersides being a heck of a nice guy he is scarry smart and will talk your ear off.
http://www.goa-northcoastoil.com/tips/2cycleol.html
In case your wondering most of my knowledge on the subject was gained from Dr. David Redzous at Precision Automotive Research. He works hand in hand with Phillips 66 race fuel division blending new fuels and lubricants. He has worked with many Cart and nascar teams. Bersides being a heck of a nice guy he is scarry smart and will talk your ear off.
" ... most of my knowledge on the subject was gained from Dr. David Redzous at Precision Automotive Research. He works hand in hand with Phillips 66 race fuel division blending new fuels and lubricants. He has worked with many CART and NASCAR teams. Besides being a heck of a nice guy he is scary smart and will talk your ear off."
Hmmm ... maybe you could get him to participate on this forum ... and perhaps even become a sponsor.
--- Bror Jace
Hmmm ... maybe you could get him to participate on this forum ... and perhaps even become a sponsor.
--- Bror Jace
I thought maybe that's where it was coming from.. I"m sorry but so far, I haven't seen anything other than one oil company(goa) promoting this. I had looked in my lube books and was trying to locate more direct info and everything I see so far doesn't appear to go with all of those particular points in differences.
When looking at the GOA site, I feel as if I'm looking at some company propaganda page(along the same lines of one I can think of). Not saying it is, but would like to see it from some major additive or oil company that is bringing in this info.
When looking at the GOA site, I feel as if I'm looking at some company propaganda page(along the same lines of one I can think of). Not saying it is, but would like to see it from some major additive or oil company that is bringing in this info.
Bob, The page does have a sales pitch built into it much like this site, but it does a fair job of explaining the differance between a iso gd/jaso fc fluid and a tcw3 fluid.The technical merits of the page are correct.
BTW the quote Dragboat pulled form the lubrizol site applys to aircoole fluids and not tcw3 type fluids. He left that little tidbit out.
[ January 18, 2003, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: blano ]
BTW the quote Dragboat pulled form the lubrizol site applys to aircoole fluids and not tcw3 type fluids. He left that little tidbit out.
[ January 18, 2003, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: blano ]
Ben,
The Amsoil 100:1 two stroke oil is listed as ISO EGD on the dealer price list and is primarily intended for air cooled engines. I've been using it for about 12 years in chainsaws/trimmers and it works very well in these applications. This oil was used for off shore powerboat racing as well - Amsoil had a number of sponsored boats that ran back in the mid 1980's. In those applications it was normally mixed @ 50:1 and the big Mercs were rejetted to run well at that ratio.
My experience with "AIO" is mainly in Yamaha Jetskis and oil injected Mercury outboards - ie Bassboats - Again, I've seen good long term results in these applications.
The Series 2000 two stroke has only been out for a few years, so I have less experience with this oil. I have used it at 50:1 in my trimmer and chainsaw and it works fine from my limited experience. As I'm sure you're aware, this oil is also used professionally in WSA snowmobile, the Laughlin Formula One Prop Tour, and motorcross racing - specifically in factory sponsored Polaris/Mercury/Yamaha/Honda engines. I have no insight how well it works in these applications, however.
Ted
The Amsoil 100:1 two stroke oil is listed as ISO EGD on the dealer price list and is primarily intended for air cooled engines. I've been using it for about 12 years in chainsaws/trimmers and it works very well in these applications. This oil was used for off shore powerboat racing as well - Amsoil had a number of sponsored boats that ran back in the mid 1980's. In those applications it was normally mixed @ 50:1 and the big Mercs were rejetted to run well at that ratio.
My experience with "AIO" is mainly in Yamaha Jetskis and oil injected Mercury outboards - ie Bassboats - Again, I've seen good long term results in these applications.
The Series 2000 two stroke has only been out for a few years, so I have less experience with this oil. I have used it at 50:1 in my trimmer and chainsaw and it works fine from my limited experience. As I'm sure you're aware, this oil is also used professionally in WSA snowmobile, the Laughlin Formula One Prop Tour, and motorcross racing - specifically in factory sponsored Polaris/Mercury/Yamaha/Honda engines. I have no insight how well it works in these applications, however.
Ted
TooSlick. The idea of running a 100:1 oil ratio in a motor that has a very poor lube sytem to begin with gives me the cold sweats. Some motors like outboards are designed to be run at higher ratios(50:1) Others like chainsaws and weed trimmers use 50:1 ratios now(used to be 32:1 or less) because of the EPA and public perception. There is no reason to run a lean ratio with todays oils. Most any iso egd oil will run clean and smoke free at a 32:1 ratio. There is no doubt in my mind that a two cycle will run longer and cleaner at a 32:1 ratio vs 100:1.
No as far as my expierance with amsoil two cycle race oil. Its not a bad oil. It just seems to be pretty applictaion specific. It works great in high stress, high heat applictaions like 125 cc mx bikes and 440cc snowcross sleds. I do think Mobil Mx2T is a much better choice for most people as it burns cleaner at lower temps, its cheaper and is easier to get jetted right. If you run ARO in a enduro bike or a trail sled it will leave some deposits. I think the problem is most people assume they need the best product out there when in reality they would be better served by a lesser product. As far as the race teams go. I would not be so sure they run amsoil. Heath Voss(mx racer) was sponsered by amsoil one year and according to his engine guy he ran redline. Nascar guys have oil sponsors and almost never run there products.
[ January 20, 2003, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: blano ]
No as far as my expierance with amsoil two cycle race oil. Its not a bad oil. It just seems to be pretty applictaion specific. It works great in high stress, high heat applictaions like 125 cc mx bikes and 440cc snowcross sleds. I do think Mobil Mx2T is a much better choice for most people as it burns cleaner at lower temps, its cheaper and is easier to get jetted right. If you run ARO in a enduro bike or a trail sled it will leave some deposits. I think the problem is most people assume they need the best product out there when in reality they would be better served by a lesser product. As far as the race teams go. I would not be so sure they run amsoil. Heath Voss(mx racer) was sponsered by amsoil one year and according to his engine guy he ran redline. Nascar guys have oil sponsors and almost never run there products.
[ January 20, 2003, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: blano ]
I emailed Amsoil Tech:
Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 8:51 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Technical Service Contact Form
"I currently use Amsoil Injector oil in my 115 Johnson outboard motor. Why do you not submit your oil for testing to the NMMA and get it put on their TCW3 certification list?"
Here is the response I got:
"Joe, this is really a deep issue, and there are many reasons why we do not. Even though our AIO meets TC-W3 performance specs our AIO also works equally well in some applications that advise not to use TC-W3 oil. This issue has to do with ash content, and our AIO formulation is ideal for marine applications as well as other applications. In other words it burns clean enough to qualify for TC-W3, but also is protective enough for applications that advise against TC-W3. Like many other oil companies we could take the same product, put a different label on it, get a TC-W3 certification and call it marine oil. This would cost our end consumer more money. But rest assured AIO does meet the requirements of TC-W3."
-Joe
Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 8:51 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Technical Service Contact Form
"I currently use Amsoil Injector oil in my 115 Johnson outboard motor. Why do you not submit your oil for testing to the NMMA and get it put on their TCW3 certification list?"
Here is the response I got:
"Joe, this is really a deep issue, and there are many reasons why we do not. Even though our AIO meets TC-W3 performance specs our AIO also works equally well in some applications that advise not to use TC-W3 oil. This issue has to do with ash content, and our AIO formulation is ideal for marine applications as well as other applications. In other words it burns clean enough to qualify for TC-W3, but also is protective enough for applications that advise against TC-W3. Like many other oil companies we could take the same product, put a different label on it, get a TC-W3 certification and call it marine oil. This would cost our end consumer more money. But rest assured AIO does meet the requirements of TC-W3."
-Joe
Sounds like another BS response from Amsoil. Basicaly what they are saying is that it is a tcw3 oil formulation wise, but they reccomend it for other apps(JASO FC) that it couldnt possibly pass while passing tcw3. All of this is a moot point as we dont really know what specs it will pass as there have been no certified tests. There comments also will not do any thing for your warranty which is null and void from using a non certified fluid.
This is why I dislike amsoil. Smoke and mirrors marketing.
[ January 20, 2003, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: blano ]
This is why I dislike amsoil. Smoke and mirrors marketing.
[ January 20, 2003, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: blano ]
I disagree, Blano. What "...also works equally well in some applications that advise not to use TC-W3 oil..." says to me is that it wouldn't be considered for applications that preclude using a product with a TCW3 label.
I disagree here as well. The company and outside labs have tested the products against the applicable specs. That's how they can formulate a product to exceed the spec. I've not found a more values- and integrity-oriented company.
Here, too, Blano - the warranty is in full force when you use a product that meets the applicable specs. Probably splitting hairs, but true nonetheless. Take a look at your warranty docs.
Andy
ben walker asked:
I'm not permitted to advertize my primary employment due to my employer's prohibition on statements I make being misconstrued as coming from my employer (USAF). I'm not permitted to announce my part-time affiliation due to the rules of this site restricting advertizing to the site owner and registered sponsors.
Tongue-in-cheek: You first.
Andy
My affiliation is my personal experience and research. Both of which are well beyond my full- and part-time employment.
I'm not permitted to advertize my primary employment due to my employer's prohibition on statements I make being misconstrued as coming from my employer (USAF). I'm not permitted to announce my part-time affiliation due to the rules of this site restricting advertizing to the site owner and registered sponsors.
Tongue-in-cheek: You first.
Andy
"I disagree here as well. The company and outside labs have tested the products against the applicable specs. That's how they can formulate a product to exceed the spec. I've not found a more values- and integrity-oriented company."
How do you know that? I can say a can a of pepsi meets a set of specs , but until it actually passes said specs and is certified there is no proof. I hope you are joking on Amsoil haveing high integrity. Misleading marketing and pyramid schemes dont reak of integrity if you ask me. Add to that all the slime balldealers they have(there are a few good ones like TS and others) and it doesnt paint a picture of a company with high integrity.
"Here, too, Blano - the warranty is in full force when you use a product that meets the applicable specs."
Meeting a set of specs means nothing as far as warranty is concerned. IT MUST BE CERTIFIED. Without a cert warranty is null and void. The moss act will not save you when you are using a non cert fluid.
How do you know that? I can say a can a of pepsi meets a set of specs , but until it actually passes said specs and is certified there is no proof. I hope you are joking on Amsoil haveing high integrity. Misleading marketing and pyramid schemes dont reak of integrity if you ask me. Add to that all the slime balldealers they have(there are a few good ones like TS and others) and it doesnt paint a picture of a company with high integrity.
"Here, too, Blano - the warranty is in full force when you use a product that meets the applicable specs."
Meeting a set of specs means nothing as far as warranty is concerned. IT MUST BE CERTIFIED. Without a cert warranty is null and void. The moss act will not save you when you are using a non cert fluid.
My only comment on this would be how does the manufacture know that it's certified or not? From my understanding it would be that in the event of a failure the company would test the oil used against the specs called for. I think that name or brand of the oil is irrelevant?
The moss act relates to the fact that it's up to the manufacture to prove that the oil was in fact not capbable of meeting the specs. Certification or not!---And I believe that is what Andy was getting at.
"My only comment on this would be how does the manufacture know that it's certified or not? From my understanding it would be that in the event of a failure the company would test the oil used against the specs called for. I think that name or brand of the oil is irrelevant?"
Msparks, Your right in that the brand of oil is irrelevant. Thats what the Moss act protects you from. The requirment that a oil is certified to a minumim quality standard(tcw3) isnt. If you use a non tcw3 certified oil in your outboard and you have a failure your warranty is void UNLESS you can prove the failure was not caused by the product you used. You ask how would a dealer know? If they suspect you are using non certified oil its up to you to proove what you are using should the ask. If you refuse to tell them the will simply void your warranty. Is this likely to happen. I dunno, but it could. FWIW I see no reason to use a synthetic oil in a low stress application like a outboard anyhow. About the only benifit is to lighten your wallet. That being said Tooslick is going to send me some AIO to evaluate at my fishing lodge. We shall see if there are any benifits to its use.
Msparks, Your right in that the brand of oil is irrelevant. Thats what the Moss act protects you from. The requirment that a oil is certified to a minumim quality standard(tcw3) isnt. If you use a non tcw3 certified oil in your outboard and you have a failure your warranty is void UNLESS you can prove the failure was not caused by the product you used. You ask how would a dealer know? If they suspect you are using non certified oil its up to you to proove what you are using should the ask. If you refuse to tell them the will simply void your warranty. Is this likely to happen. I dunno, but it could. FWIW I see no reason to use a synthetic oil in a low stress application like a outboard anyhow. About the only benifit is to lighten your wallet. That being said Tooslick is going to send me some AIO to evaluate at my fishing lodge. We shall see if there are any benifits to its use.
Your right there, either way I guess it can happen. I'm sure they can pretty much void your warranty for any reason, then it would be up to the individual go to court, I'm sure you would be paying more than what it costs to get it fixed.
blano,
I've seen lab tests that showed that the products I use exceed the spec I purchased them for. Test results from labs other than those in Superior.
Please don't mistakenly mix 'standard' and 'certification'. A standard is like the height of the wall military basic trainees must scale to graduate. A certification is a determination made by a recognized authority that the trainee did get over the wall.
If the trainee did get over the wall, but the inspector didn't see them, that trainee still got over the wall. He or she isn't certified, but is qualified. I don't care about the inspector -- I want the most qualified product.
In my line of work, in most lines of work, you can find the folks that are certified but can't do the job. You seek out the qualified folks when you need help because you know they can do it. Don't you? Or are you comfortable grabbing that case of API certified lube even after seeing that many of the products don't meet API specs? The engine can't read the bottle and say: "My rings shouldn't be sticking, 'cause that oil's certified!"
The warranty docs I've seen say I have to use a lube that meets a spec. Usually it's language like "...must meet or exceed API CD requirements..." or some such. It doesn't take a lawyer to figure out what that means.
As to MLM and advertizing: A pyramid scheme (Ponzi) is something like the internet thing where you send each of 5 people a dollar bill and move your name up the list. Each of the people up the chain get money solely from those below them paying to get on the list. When the suckers stop, the cash stops flowing. There are no product purchases, there's no trade. That's illegal.
ML marketing is what happens each time you watch a movie, enjoy it, and tell a friend about it and she sees the movie. In companies like AMWAY and others, the sole compensation is a small percentage of the sales volume from the down line. Contrast this to traditional direct selling, where the insurance salesman gets a commission on each policy they sell, or the dude at Radio Shack gets more commission selling a larger stereo than a small one. Commissions are paid based upon the performance of the sales person.
I'd much rather select my products based upon independent industry standard tests conducted in certified labs. I'm not as tolerant of prejudice and name calling.
Blano -- show me something from a warranty document that says a lube must be CERTIFIED.
And show me something that says anything AMSOIL prints is false or misleading. Anything. I've been looking and haven't found it yet. Educate me.
Andy
I've seen lab tests that showed that the products I use exceed the spec I purchased them for. Test results from labs other than those in Superior.
Please don't mistakenly mix 'standard' and 'certification'. A standard is like the height of the wall military basic trainees must scale to graduate. A certification is a determination made by a recognized authority that the trainee did get over the wall.
If the trainee did get over the wall, but the inspector didn't see them, that trainee still got over the wall. He or she isn't certified, but is qualified. I don't care about the inspector -- I want the most qualified product.
In my line of work, in most lines of work, you can find the folks that are certified but can't do the job. You seek out the qualified folks when you need help because you know they can do it. Don't you? Or are you comfortable grabbing that case of API certified lube even after seeing that many of the products don't meet API specs? The engine can't read the bottle and say: "My rings shouldn't be sticking, 'cause that oil's certified!"
The warranty docs I've seen say I have to use a lube that meets a spec. Usually it's language like "...must meet or exceed API CD requirements..." or some such. It doesn't take a lawyer to figure out what that means.
As to MLM and advertizing: A pyramid scheme (Ponzi) is something like the internet thing where you send each of 5 people a dollar bill and move your name up the list. Each of the people up the chain get money solely from those below them paying to get on the list. When the suckers stop, the cash stops flowing. There are no product purchases, there's no trade. That's illegal.
ML marketing is what happens each time you watch a movie, enjoy it, and tell a friend about it and she sees the movie. In companies like AMWAY and others, the sole compensation is a small percentage of the sales volume from the down line. Contrast this to traditional direct selling, where the insurance salesman gets a commission on each policy they sell, or the dude at Radio Shack gets more commission selling a larger stereo than a small one. Commissions are paid based upon the performance of the sales person.
I'd much rather select my products based upon independent industry standard tests conducted in certified labs. I'm not as tolerant of prejudice and name calling.
Blano -- show me something from a warranty document that says a lube must be CERTIFIED.
And show me something that says anything AMSOIL prints is false or misleading. Anything. I've been looking and haven't found it yet. Educate me.
Andy
"And show me something that says anything AMSOIL prints is false or misleading. Anything. I've been looking and haven't found it yet. Educate me."
Look on their website where they claim AIO will meet both jaso fc and tcw3 specs. This is impossibly so I would say that statement is slightly misleading.
FWIW try your guy getting over the wall analogy with a warranty dept. You will get laughed out the door. Its pretty clear to me when a manual says a tcw3 fluid must be used.BTW I would like tos ee this tests you have. I am very interested to see how AIO scored as I may be testing some this summer. Was it ashless?
[ January 24, 2003, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: blano ]
Look on their website where they claim AIO will meet both jaso fc and tcw3 specs. This is impossibly so I would say that statement is slightly misleading.
FWIW try your guy getting over the wall analogy with a warranty dept. You will get laughed out the door. Its pretty clear to me when a manual says a tcw3 fluid must be used.BTW I would like tos ee this tests you have. I am very interested to see how AIO scored as I may be testing some this summer. Was it ashless?
[ January 24, 2003, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: blano ]
How many of you own a boat??? Who has ever been through the nightmare of having to deal with a boat dealer, especially on a warranty claim?? I have been though this on several ocassions. In 1985, my dad purchased a brand new Evinrude 90 VRO, which was an oil injected motor. Back then, the oil injected motors were new, and had alot of problems. After a couple of months, the oil pump failed and the motor locked up. When dad was dealing with the dealer, they asked him to show the receipts where he had purchased the oil for the boat. Luckily my dad had purchased the oil from the marina, which sold OMC oil, and had the receipts to prove it. He got a new motor. What would have happened if he did not have the receipts of an NMMA TCW3 certified oil? He would have been out of a motor. It is no different today. Outboard boat motors cost anywhere from $1200 to $20,000, depending on the motor. Heck, my 115 Johhson would cost $7500 brand new. If you guys think for a second that a boat dealer or manufacturer is going to give you the benefit of the doubt, you can forget it. The bottom line is that unless an oil is certified TCW3 by the NMMA, not matter how good the oil performs or what spec it meets, you void your warranty. Even though I use the AIO, which I love by the way, when the boat was under warranty, I used Mercury, OMC and Pennzoil Semi-Synthetic to cover my butt in case of a warranty claim. But what would it have mattered, a month after I purchased my boat, OMC went bankrupt
Have a good weekend guys, Joe
[ January 24, 2003, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: joee12 ]
[ January 24, 2003, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: joee12 ]
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