0W-20 in a BMW M-60

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Where did you see this? I have been looking for that kind of information and haven't seen it anywhere.

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
The M60 has a similar bottom end to the M62 which BMW state a LL01FE 2.9cP oil cannot be used and a LL01 (3.5cP) oil should be. Other old engines state LL01FE or just ACEA. This alone should convince most consumers to not go below 3.5cP HTHS


I found this on official BMW communication materials. (it also mentions LL04 is ok but only in Europe)

Source:
Appendix 3 to SI 11 07 96 (138), Edition 09/2009, update 06/2011
3.0 Prescribed motor oils for BMW Group engines

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: fpracha
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Under less extremely cold temp's and running in the spring and fall a light 0W-30 (HTHSV 3.0cP) like M1 AFE, it is good up to and including normal oil temp's in the 90-95C range.

what about during the hot summer month or two.. is a light 0w-20 sufficient or a light 0w30 is necessary ? Or would the Bimmer essentially require a 5w30 grade or an even heavier oil grade, during hot weeks of summers (i mean when outside temperatures are of 75F to 92F range at max)?

thanks for all imputs!

I cannot even believe someone would come up with idea to use light 0W30, not to mention 5W20 in summer months in bimmer.
The way I drive I would be affraid to use that oil on -30 driving more then 20 miles in Euro engine.
On other hand, if you want to see what would happen, something like "scientific experiment;" sure go ahead.

 

[il_signore97]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
kschachn - I would keep doing what you're already doing even though M1 0W-30 only has a HTHS vis. of 3.

BMW was a Founding Member of ACEA in 1991 and a primary function of the group initially was to overcome such things as lubricant quality and performance standards. Initially the emphasis was on A3/B3 products with a HTHS vis. of >3.5 for normal use

To me this is the baseline for many early Euro engines - and certainly it was for Porsche and Benz

Few benefits if any IMO would flow in your case from using a lower viscosity than what you are already

Using the lowest viscosity recommended by the Manufacturer (according to use/ambient) has always been my plan



kschachn,

You've just got the best endorsement above from Doug Hillary himself. And he even sanctions your M1 0W30 oil choice considering the circumstances surrounding the operation of your vehicle.

I'd say at this point, keep doing what you're doing with the M1 0W30.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: fpracha
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Under less extremely cold temp's and running in the spring and fall a light 0W-30 (HTHSV 3.0cP) like M1 AFE, it is good up to and including normal oil temp's in the 90-95C range.

what about during the hot summer month or two.. is a light 0w-20 sufficient or a light 0w30 is necessary ? Or would the Bimmer essentially require a 5w30 grade or an even heavier oil grade, during hot weeks of summers (i mean when outside temperatures are of 75F to 92F range at max)?

thanks for all imputs!

I'm not suggesting running a light HTHSV 2.6-2.7cP 0W-20 during the summer months at least not without an oil pressure gauge.
When oil temp's get up to normal operating temp's of 93-95C you will likely be testing the minimum recommended OP test spec's for the engine. That doesn't mean there isn't a sufficient viscosity reserve remaining and I do know some that have run a light 0W-20 through the summer without issue. Obviously if you're doing just short trips when the oil temp's are still only occasionally hitting 95C and when they do you're not using full throttle then still using a 0W-20 would be fine.

kschachn is currently using M1 0W-30 which is lighter than the spec' 5W-30 (although about the same as the BMW 0W-30 LL-01 FE) and he could continue to use this oil without issue through the summer months if he wants without issue. A 3.0cP HTHSV oil is more than sufficiently viscose that he'll never test the minimum OP spec' with the way his car is used.

 

[bobbydavro]

Have you any actual data on the effect of ambient temperature on engine oil temperature? I think you will be surprised.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Have you any actual data on the effect of ambient temperature on engine oil temperature? I think you will be surprised.


I do. My M5 runs consistently about 10C colder in the winter for oil temps than it does in the summer. It also takes a fair bit longer to get up to temp and that's with an oil/coolant cooler that heats the oil in the winter.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Have you any actual data on the effect of ambient temperature on engine oil temperature? I think you will be surprised.



I've got a digital oil temp and pressure display on my charger. I can say with 100% certainty on my car ambient temps have no effect on oil temps until the ambient temps drop in excess of -30f,so in my experience in order for ambient temps to affect oil temps the ambient temps need to be cold enough that I'm questioning why I'm even driving at all.
In my charger the oil grade has more effect on oil temps than ambient temps for example this past fall I drained the m1 5w-20 I had in it for liqui-moly 0w-40 and I drove into the city(30+ miles) and my oil temps at 70mph,cruise enabled,and my oil temps prior to the change were 213f. They dropped to 190f with the thicker oil.
Oil pressures were consistent to what I observed with the 5w-20.
Last week I changed my oil and used ultra 5w-20 and I am again seeing 213f oil temps vs 200f tops with a 0w-40 with on excess of 10000 miles on the oil.
So ambient temps have little effect on my hemi until ambient is so cold I shouldn't be outside anyways.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Have you any actual data on the effect of ambient temperature on engine oil temperature? I think you will be surprised.


I do. My M5 runs consistently about 10C colder in the winter for oil temps than it does in the summer. It also takes a fair bit longer to get up to temp and that's with an oil/coolant cooler that heats the oil in the winter.

It depends how oil cooling is solved. If attention is paid on oil cooling (which most of European manufacturers pay attention on, especially cars like M5), and there is big oil sump, then it is understandable that oil needs more time to warm up in cold weather.
That is why 5W30 or even better, 0W30 is good for European cars in winter, but spring time, I would switch to 40 grade.

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Have you any actual data on the effect of ambient temperature on engine oil temperature? I think you will be surprised.

In my charger the oil grade has more effect on oil temps than ambient temps for example this past fall I drained the m1 5w-20 I had in it for liqui-moly 0w-40 and I drove into the city(30+ miles) and my oil temps at 70mph,cruise enabled,and my oil temps prior to the change were 213f. They dropped to 190f with the thicker oil.

thanks Clevy, this is an interesting piece of empirical data!
Do you feel the thinner oil is removing heat better from hot zones of the engine or rather the thicker oil is causing slower heatup ?!
So which oil is then preferred... 5w-20 or 0w-40 in your hemi ?

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: fpracha
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Under less extremely cold temp's and running in the spring and fall a light 0W-30 (HTHSV 3.0cP) like M1 AFE, it is good up to and including normal oil temp's in the 90-95C range.

...is a light 0w-20 sufficient or a light 0w30 necessary Or would the Bimmer essentially require a 5w30 (or heavier oil) during hot weeks of summer (when outside temperatures are 75F to 92F max)?

A 3.0cP HTHSV oil is more than sufficiently viscose that he'll never test the minimum OP spec' with the way his car is used.

We have seen differences in opinions which is healthy for this good discussion, certainly your opinion matters as you always try to base it on practical experiences and scientific background as much as practically possible.

Between a 5w40 grade with a higher MRV value but lower HTHS(=3.59) and a 0w-40 grade with a lower MRV value and higher HTHS(=3.80), which one exactly is the "lighter / thinner" oil... the one with a lower HTHS OR one with the lower MRV and CCS values ?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Clevy

In my charger the oil grade has more effect on oil temps than ambient temps for example this past fall I drained the m1 5w-20 I had in it for liqui-moly 0w-40 and I drove into the city(30+ miles) and my oil temps at 70mph,cruise enabled,and my oil temps prior to the change were 213f. They dropped to 190f with the thicker oil.


Interesting. Reading here you'd think it would be completely the opposite. That's a pretty substantial drop in oil temps. Have you ever tried the same thing with a 30 grade oil?

 

[bobbydavro]

0W-40 is thinner than a 5W-20.

Ignore the effect of Viscosity modifiers, think about the actual base oil viscosity

 

[Coprolite]

What makes you think this?

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
0W-40 is thinner than a 5W-20.

Ignore the effect of Viscosity modifiers, think about the actual base oil viscosity

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
0W-40 is thinner than a 5W-20.

Ignore the effect of Viscosity modifiers, think about the actual base oil viscosity


No it isn't. Solarent and I had this discussion recently and the general conclusion was that it (M1 0w-40) was comprised of a base oil blend that resulted in a 30-weight (0w-30 or 5w-30) with the necessary amount of VII's added to bring it up to a 40. However that may have changed for the slightly heavier SN version that doesn't seem to shear down into a 30 anymore. With the higher CCS/MRV viscosity the base oil blend is likely a bit heavier.

Of course at somewhere near the CCS point, the 0w-40 will thicken less than a 5w-20. It has to in order to carry the 0w-xx designation. But I don't think that's what you are implying, correct?

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: fpracha

Between a 5w40 grade with a higher MRV value but lower HTHS(=3.59) and a 0w-40 grade with a lower MRV value and higher HTHS(=3.80), which one exactly is the "lighter / thinner" oil... the one with a lower HTHS OR one with the lower MRV and CCS values ?

That depends entirely on what temperature your making the comparison.

 

[CATERHAM]

It also depends on the VIs of both oils.
But assuming the 5W-40 has a lower VI it will likely be heavier at all start-up temp's up to at least 80F.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: fpracha

Between a 5w40 grade with a higher MRV value but lower HTHS(=3.59) and a 0w-40 grade with a lower MRV value and higher HTHS(=3.80), which one exactly is the "lighter / thinner" oil... the one with a lower HTHS OR one with the lower MRV and CCS values ?

That depends entirely on what temperature your making the comparison.

I would say that 0W40 here is more "versatile" oil.
At subfreezing temperatures you want 0W40. But in this case, if you have Turbo engine, you want 3.8 HTHS at operating temperatures or heavy duty operations.

 

[Gokhan]

The question here was whether lower MRV/CCS necessarily means lighter oil when the engine is cold.

The answer, as implied by CATERHAM, is no. For a given y of *W-y SAE viscosity grade, how light an oil when it's cold is given by the viscosity index, not MRV/CCS. Higher the viscosity index, lighter the oil will be when it's cold.

MRV/CCS only tells you about the lowest possible engine-cranking temperature.

Also note that lower MRV/CCS also results in lower NOACK, which translates into a lower quality oil as far as normal operating temperature is concerned. So, there is a trade-off between MRV/CCS and performance at normal or high operating temperature. One can always use a higher-quality base stock to keep the MRV/CCS and NOACK both low, but there is still a trade-off within a given base-stock type.

 

[bobbydavro]

VI is only based on viscosity under gravity at 40C and 100C. You can't extrapolate beyond this. Things like wax formation, ppd effect and polymer response cannot be calculated at lower temperatures.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
VI is only based on viscosity under gravity at 40C and 100C. You can't extrapolate beyond this. Things like wax formation, ppd effect and polymer response cannot be calculated at lower temperatures.

It's true about the definition of the viscosity index using 40 C and 100 C, but I am talking about reasonable cold temperatures here. You can extrapolate to a certain extent. Sure, at very deep freezing temperatures, for a 5W- or 0W- oil, MRV/CCS will start showing their effects below a certain temperature. This will be a higher temperature for 10W- or 20W- oils.