0W-20 in a BMW M-60

[kschachn]

If you are talking to me, it is a 1994 E34 with an M60 engine. 3.0 L. Old

Originally Posted By: nleksan
HOLD ON A SECOND...


Did you do a motor swap?
I ask because an E39 530i has an M54B30, and the E60 mostly has an N52B30. The M6x series of motors are the 4.0, 4.4, 4.8L V8's as seen in the 540i, 740i, X5's, and so forth.
They are very, very different engines.


As far as putting 0w20 in an S54 (E46 M3/Z3M/Z4M), that's a guaranteed way to pound your journal bearings into oblivion. The only oil I use outside of the TWS 10w60 (the oil is so often reformulated, and it's done so as to best meet the needs of the current M engines, without TOO much change for the older ones, but still...), is RL 5-10W50. It gives me better track temps, but otherwise has bbeen a perfect substitute and I saw no out of the norm wear when changing bearings to Bimmerworld 50mm WPC-treated ones.

The 10w60 is actually perfectly fine in winter, I have noticed only the slightest increase in cranking time when it's below freezing, but no noticeable increase in the time it takes to get to temp (going by a real gauge, not the cluster temp Guage).

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: nleksan

As far as putting 0w20 in an S54 (E46 M3/Z3M/Z4M), that's a guaranteed way to pound your journal bearings into oblivion. The only oil I use outside of the TWS 10w60 (the oil is so often reformulated, and it's done so as to best meet the needs of the current M engines, without TOO much change for the older ones, but still...), is RL 5-10W50. It gives me better track temps, but otherwise has bbeen a perfect substitute and I saw no out of the norm wear when changing bearings to Bimmerworld 50mm WPC-treated ones.

The 10w60 is actually perfectly fine in winter, I have noticed only the slightest increase in cranking time when it's below freezing, but no noticeable increase in the time it takes to get to temp (going by a real gauge, not the cluster temp Guage).

It never ceases to amaze me that one can otherwise acquire a fair bit of automotive knowledge and still not grasp the concept of operational viscosity. Fortunately many do and have never used that way overly heavy 10W-60 lube in the winter since the day it was first specified some 15 years ago.
10W-60 is simply a terrible oil choice for winter use in an M3 or other model for which it's spec'd.
The fact of the matter is no Bimmer that's spec'd for 10W-60 actually requires that grade even for normal hot summer street use. How do I know that? Because a 5W-30 is the factory fill.
It's good to know that BMW now allows other lighter LL-01 oils to be used in place of TWS 10W-60.

I don't know why you would imply the BMW oil temp' gauge is inaccurate or otherwise understates the actual oils temp's.
Every Bimmer owner I know with the factory gauge and after market gauges alike observes the slow rise in oil temp's operating in sub-freezing temp's topping out a good 10-20 degrees C below normal summer time temp's.
Even with a light 0W-20 you still need oil temp's of 65-70C before the oil pump is out of by-pass at elevated rev's.
If you're only seeing maximum oil temp's in the 80C range a 0W-20 grade oil is the IDEAL lubricant to use and your engine will love you for it. The improvement in driveability and engine responsiveness over the 10W-60 motor mud is nothing short of dramatic.

Under less extremely cold temp's and running in the spring and fall a light 0W-30 (HTHSV 3.0cP) like M1 AFE, it is good up to and including normal oil temp's in the 90-95C range.

To benefit from an oil like M1 0W-40 your really need to see max' oil temp's in the 100-105C range. As for TWS 10W-60, unless you're routinely seeing oil temp's of at least 120C which can really only be generated on the track if at all, this oil offers no lubrication benefit just a boat load of disadvantages.

 

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: nleksan

As far as putting 0w20 in an S54 (E46 M3/Z3M/Z4M), that's a guaranteed way to pound your journal bearings into oblivion. The only oil I use outside of the TWS 10w60 (the oil is so often reformulated, and it's done so as to best meet the needs of the current M engines, without TOO much change for the older ones, but still...), is RL 5-10W50. It gives me better track temps, but otherwise has bbeen a perfect substitute and I saw no out of the norm wear when changing bearings to Bimmerworld 50mm WPC-treated ones.

The 10w60 is actually perfectly fine in winter, I have noticed only the slightest increase in cranking time when it's below freezing, but no noticeable increase in the time it takes to get to temp (going by a real gauge, not the cluster temp Guage).

It never ceases to amaze me that one can otherwise acquire a fair bit of automotive knowledge and still not grasp the concept of operational viscosity. Fortunately many do and have never used that way overly heavy 10W-60 lube in the winter since the day it was first specified some 15 years ago.
10W-60 is simply a terrible oil choice for winter use in an M3 or other model for which it's spec'd.
The fact of the matter is no Bimmer that's spec'd for 10W-60 actually requires that grade even for normal hot summer street use. How do I know that? Because a 5W-30 is the factory fill.
It's good to know that BMW now allows other lighter LL-01 oils to be used in place of TWS 10W-60.

I don't know why you would imply the BMW oil temp' gauge is inaccurate or otherwise understates the actual oils temp's.
Every Bimmer owner I know with the factory gauge and after market gauges alike observes the slow rise in oil temp's operating in sub-freezing temp's topping out a good 10-20 degrees C below normal summer time temp's.
Even with a light 0W-20 you still need oil temp's of 65-70C before the oil pump is out of by-pass at elevated rev's.
If you're only seeing maximum oil temp's in the 80C range a 0W-20 grade oil is the IDEAL lubricant to use and your engine will love you for it. The improvement in driveability and engine responsiveness over the 10W-60 motor mud is nothing short of dramatic.

Under less extremely cold temp's and running in the spring and fall a light 0W-30 (HTHSV 3.0cP) like M1 AFE, it is good up to and including normal oil temp's in the 90-95C range.

To benefit from an oil like M1 0W-40 your really need to see max' oil temp's in the 100-105C range. As for TWS 10W-60, unless you're routinely seeing oil temp's of at least 120C which can really only be generated on the track if at all, this oil offers no lubrication benefit just a boat load of disadvantages.

Hold on a moment before you acuse others of not understanding viscosity
It seems you think ambient temperature and KV at a guessed Summp temperature is all that matters and the only factor when chosing an oil?

The BMW M 10W-60 is factory fill and its cold performance is fine, the pour point. MRV and CCS is miles ahead of any other 10W due to the specifics of the base oil used, infactIt's almost oa 5W and then starts to look little different to a 5W-20.

Ill say again, in the various conditions within an engine, KV is not that relevant. I dont know any part of the engine that oil flows under the force of gravity through a glass capillary tube..
Also you seem to be stating information as fact, despite it being completely against BMWs reccomendations. Youve said a BMW M can now run LL01 but also a 3.0 HTHS oil will do, these cannot exist together as a LL01 must be 3.5HTHS.

Also LL01 is only recommened in the BMW M engines with turbos

Back to the OP, I certainly wouldnt ignore BMWs recommendation here in the chase for 0.5 faster oil pressure. If you are concerned about the cold, you can't really go wrong with a 0W-30 LL01 oil, the Russians certainly have no issues.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro

Ill say again, in the various conditions within an engine, KV is not that relevant. I dont know any part of the engine that oil flows under the force of gravity through a glass capillary tube..


It is for cylinder wear. I guess we'll have to dig up SAE papers on the subject...

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: nleksan

As far as putting 0w20 in an S54 (E46 M3/Z3M/Z4M), that's a guaranteed way to pound your journal bearings into oblivion. The only oil I use outside of the TWS 10w60 (the oil is so often reformulated, and it's done so as to best meet the needs of the current M engines, without TOO much change for the older ones, but still...), is RL 5-10W50. It gives me better track temps, but otherwise has bbeen a perfect substitute and I saw no out of the norm wear when changing bearings to Bimmerworld 50mm WPC-treated ones.

The 10w60 is actually perfectly fine in winter, I have noticed only the slightest increase in cranking time when it's below freezing, but no noticeable increase in the time it takes to get to temp (going by a real gauge, not the cluster temp Guage).

It never ceases to amaze me that one can otherwise acquire a fair bit of automotive knowledge and still not grasp the concept of operational viscosity. Fortunately many do and have never used that way overly heavy 10W-60 lube in the winter since the day it was first specified some 15 years ago.
10W-60 is simply a terrible oil choice for winter use in an M3 or other model for which it's spec'd.
The fact of the matter is no Bimmer that's spec'd for 10W-60 actually requires that grade even for normal hot summer street use. How do I know that? Because a 5W-30 is the factory fill.
It's good to know that BMW now allows other lighter LL-01 oils to be used in place of TWS 10W-60.

I don't know why you would imply the BMW oil temp' gauge is inaccurate or otherwise understates the actual oils temp's.
Every Bimmer owner I know with the factory gauge and after market gauges alike observes the slow rise in oil temp's operating in sub-freezing temp's topping out a good 10-20 degrees C below normal summer time temp's.
Even with a light 0W-20 you still need oil temp's of 65-70C before the oil pump is out of by-pass at elevated rev's.
If you're only seeing maximum oil temp's in the 80C range a 0W-20 grade oil is the IDEAL lubricant to use and your engine will love you for it. The improvement in driveability and engine responsiveness over the 10W-60 motor mud is nothing short of dramatic.

Under less extremely cold temp's and running in the spring and fall a light 0W-30 (HTHSV 3.0cP) like M1 AFE, it is good up to and including normal oil temp's in the 90-95C range.

To benefit from an oil like M1 0W-40 your really need to see max' oil temp's in the 100-105C range. As for TWS 10W-60, unless you're routinely seeing oil temp's of at least 120C which can really only be generated on the track if at all, this oil offers no lubrication benefit just a boat load of disadvantages.

Hold on a moment before you acuse others of not understanding viscosity
It seems you think ambient temperature and KV at a guessed Summp temperature is all that matters and the only factor when chosing an oil?

The BMW M 10W-60 is factory fill and its cold performance is fine, the pour point. MRV and CCS is miles ahead of any other 10W due to the specifics of the base oil used, infactIt's almost oa 5W and then starts to look little different to a 5W-20.

Ill say again, in the various conditions within an engine, KV is not that relevant. I dont know any part of the engine that oil flows under the force of gravity through a glass capillary tube..
Also you seem to be stating information as fact, despite it being completely against BMWs reccomendations. Youve said a BMW M can now run LL01 but also a 3.0 HTHS oil will do, these cannot exist together as a LL01 must be 3.5HTHS.

Also LL01 is only recommened in the BMW M engines with turbos

Back to the OP, I certainly wouldnt ignore BMWs recommendation here in the chase for 0.5 faster oil pressure. If you are concerned about the cold, you can't really go wrong with a 0W-30 LL01 oil, the Russians certainly have no issues.

You truly are confused.
Who said kinematic viscosity had any relevance?
You may want to read the following post titled HTHSV trumps KV100:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2276634&page=1

As far as BMWs recommendations are concerned, I fully support following their OP minimum test spec's and the oil temp' ranges I've mentioned for the 0W-20 grade will comfortably exceed them.

 

[Shannow]

Again...provided that pressure = hydrodynamic lubrication, which it clearly doesn't.

 

[nleksan]

Missed that it was an E34, only have experience with the M5 and 540 M-Sport6.

It should be noted that the factory fill was 5w30 for only a part of the first year, and has since been 10w60, with 5w30 being an option for those who cannot readily acquire the TWS. It was changed not because of engineering changes, clearly as the motors are up to 13yrs old, but because of customer complaint.

I am one of the last ppeople who will advocate sticking to only the manufacturer specified oil, you need only look at my post history to see that, and personally find Redline to provide everything I want from an oil and then some. However, once we start talking about engines that cost $20k, regularly exceed 8krpm,and have a specific output exceeding 100hp/Liter naturally aspirated, I am less inclined to experiment and more inclined to stick with what is proven to work.

Furthermore, TWS 10w60 is quite unique, is formulated SPECIFIC to BMW Motorsport engines, and behaves much more like a medium 5w in the cold, but retains its ability to handle extended high stress use quite wel.

Havi ng replaced the rod bearings in mine, I know how much of a beating they can take. If I was shopping for an M, and saw it was using 5w30, it would be an immediate and huge red flag, and if I couldn't talk the price down to accommodate the cost of a bearing replacement, I'd absolutely pass no matter how nice the rest of the car may be. This would be slightly less of an issue on the S62, but for an S54/65/85, it'd be a deal-breaker.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Again...provided that pressure = hydrodynamic lubrication, which it clearly doesn't.

And you're entirely missing the point.
Maintaining a known safe minimum OP is the same a maintaining a know safe minimum operational viscosity.

 

[Shannow]

While I agree that you can demonstrate a correlation between oil pressure and viscosity, I vehemently disagree that oil pressure is indicative of adequate lubrication with different viscosity than that the OEM specified the test for.

You can get away with a lot in a lubrication system, but OP <> lubrication, it is a means to get the lubricant there.

 

[kschachn]

Actually, BMW's recommendation for this engine at these temperatures includes a 5W-20. Therefore I shouldn't have a problem running 0W-20.

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Back to the OP, I certainly wouldnt ignore BMWs recommendation here in the chase for 0.5 faster oil pressure. If you are concerned about the cold, you can't really go wrong with a 0W-30 LL01

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
While I agree that you can demonstrate a correlation between oil pressure and viscosity, I vehemently disagree that oil pressure is indicative of adequate lubrication with different viscosity than that the OEM specified the test for.

Well you can't have you're cake and eat it to.
If you understand the fact that that OP correlates with viscosity and viscosity varies with temperature then there is a clear cognitive dissonance if you think you can't run lighter than spec' oils if the oil temp's allow it.

Since this thread is about the BMW M-60 engine which in 1994 was spec'd for the 5W-20 grade for ambient temp's under 10C and a 20W-20 for ambient temp's up to 15C as an option I'm not clear what you're "vehemently" struggling with.
I think your thick oil biase is clouding your thinking.

 

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

You truly are confused.
Who said kinematic viscosity had any relevance?
You may want to read the following post titled HTHSV trumps KV100:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2276634&page=1

As far as BMWs recommendations are concerned, I fully support following their OP minimum test spec's and the oil temp' ranges I've mentioned for the 0W-20 grade will comfortably exceed them.


Not really sure what we are discussing now. It seems you are agreeing with the point I was trying to make.

Anyway HTHS100 is more relevant if you are talking about that period the oil is cold. But very quickly local engine parts will warm. Ultimate the coolant will still hit 88C. It just takes longer to get there, hence the real world issues of fuel and water dilution and oil film is compromised. Let's not just do play station engineering on fresh oil., it is only scratching the surface. Oil ages, it may be fine when it's out in the engine but fill it with [censored], shear it up a bit and age it and that 0W-20 with it's already low base oil viscosity is really going to struggle, especially when pressure viscosity coefficients and chemistry is doing all ther valve train protection . It seems you have ignored any chemistry effects and focused on the data a PDS gives, a GF-5 0W-20 is miles away from an ACEA A3/B4 oil.

I'm bit really sure why people try and disagree with the OEMs and the oil manufacturers. Especially in the case of the 10W-60 example, where the two work together to develop the best oil for a particular engine.

What advantages do you think you are getting from going thinner than recommended and are these advantages compromising other factors of oil performance?

 

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Shannow
While I agree that you can demonstrate a correlation between oil pressure and viscosity, I vehemently disagree that oil pressure is indicative of adequate lubrication with different viscosity than that the OEM specified the test for.

Well you can't have you're cake and eat it to.
If you understand the fact that that OP correlates with viscosity and viscosity varies with temperature then there is a clear cognitive dissonance if you think you can't run lighter than spec' oils if the oil temp's allow it.

Since this thread is about the BMW M-60 engine which in 1994 was spec'd for the 5W-20 grade for ambient temp's under 10C and a 20W-20 for ambient temp's up to 15C as an option I'm not clear what you're "vehemently" struggling with.
I think your thick oil biase is clouding your thinking.


So lost with this thought process. The engine will warm up and it will need the correct oil. How about fill the sump with diesel if you think thinner is better when it is cold?

The M60 has a similar bottom end to the M62 which BMW state a LL01FE 2.9cP oil cannot be used and a LL01 (3.5cP) oil should be. Other old engines state LL01FE or just ACEA. This alone should convince most consumers to not go below 3.5cP HTHS

 

[bobbydavro]

I have done some light reading on this engine on some forums and it seems most people wouldn't go below a 10W-40 regardless of temperature. Obviously oil technology has improved since 1994 but going to 0W-20 would be madness according to the tone of what I have read.

Don't try and be different for the sake of it

.

 

[kschachn]

Where did you see this? I have been looking for that kind of information and haven't seen it anywhere.

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
The M60 has a similar bottom end to the M62 which BMW state a LL01FE 2.9cP oil cannot be used and a LL01 (3.5cP) oil should be. Other old engines state LL01FE or just ACEA. This alone should convince most consumers to not go below 3.5cP HTHS

 

[kschachn]

Honestly, I couldn't care less about what people on other forums use or recommend. In my opinion, most people know almost nothing about oil. The recommendations I see elsewhere border on laughable sometimes, stuck in 1975 for all I can see. A lot of "0W-XX oil will ruin your engine, it's too thin" talk. Heck, back in the early 80's I was using M1 5W-20 in my two cars, one a Buick 455 that had used 10W-40 all its life. It did not fail.

The chart I posted earlier in this thread from my owner's manual allows 5W-20 at my current temperatures. Surely you don't think that chart is madness, and 0W-20 is also acceptable?

And I hear you about not being different for different sake. I do, really.

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
I have done some light reading on this engine on some forums and it seems most people wouldn't go below a 10W-40 regardless of temperature. Obviously oil technology has improved since 1994 but going to 0W-20 would be madness according to the tone of what I have read.

Don't try and be different for the sake of it

.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Shannow
While I agree that you can demonstrate a correlation between oil pressure and viscosity, I vehemently disagree that oil pressure is indicative of adequate lubrication with different viscosity than that the OEM specified the test for.

Well you can't have you're cake and eat it to.
If you understand the fact that that OP correlates with viscosity and viscosity varies with temperature then there is a clear cognitive dissonance if you think you can't run lighter than spec' oils if the oil temp's allow it.

Since this thread is about the BMW M-60 engine which in 1994 was spec'd for the 5W-20 grade for ambient temp's under 10C and a 20W-20 for ambient temp's up to 15C as an option I'm not clear what you're "vehemently" struggling with.
I think your thick oil biase is clouding your thinking.



Your posit is that if you achieve the manufacturer's minumum specified oil pressure (for their design viscosity) then you are adequately lubricating an engine on a different viscosity. Your logic there is that oranges are orange in colour, so anything that's orange IS an orange...

You have glossed over, many many times the fundamentals of hydrodynamic lubrication with your oil pressure=lubrication paradigm...including the fact that the temperature in the bearing is considerably different to the bulk oil temperature.

Did you just quote a viscosity and temperature different to the chart that the OP posted ?

It shows 5W-20 good only up to (-) 10C...and 20W-20 (not on the chart posted) in not having any shear prone VIIs is always going to provide a better HTHS than a multigrade...and can operate at a higher temp.

if the OP wants to run 0W-20 up to -10C as per the chart, I'm not arguing at all...that's not my "vehement argument" and you know it.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
kschachn - I would keep doing what you're already doing even though M1 0W-30 only has a HTHS vis. of 3.

BMW was a Founding Member of ACEA in 1991 and a primary function of the group initially was to overcome such things as lubricant quality and performance standards. Initially the emphasis was on A3/B3 products with a HTHS vis. of >3.5 for normal use

To me this is the baseline for many early Euro engines - and certainly it was for Porsche and Benz

Few benefits if any IMO would flow in your case from using a lower viscosity than what you are already

Using the lowest viscosity recommended by the Manufacturer (according to use/ambient) has always been my plan

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Under less extremely cold temp's and running in the spring and fall a light 0W-30 (HTHSV 3.0cP) like M1 AFE, it is good up to and including normal oil temp's in the 90-95C range.

what about during the hot summer month or two.. is a light 0w-20 sufficient or a light 0w30 is necessary ? Or would the Bimmer essentially require a 5w30 grade or an even heavier oil grade, during hot weeks of summers (i mean when outside temperatures are of 75F to 92F range at max)?

thanks for all imputs!

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Honestly, I couldn't care less about what people on other forums use or recommend. In my opinion, most people know almost nothing about oil. The recommendations I see elsewhere border on laughable sometimes, stuck in 1975 for all I can see. A lot of "0W-XX oil will ruin your engine, it's too thin" talk. Heck, back in the early 80's I was using M1 5W-20 in my two cars, one a Buick 455 that had used 10W-40 all its life. It did not fail.

The chart I posted earlier in this thread from my owner's manual allows 5W-20 at my current temperatures. Surely you don't think that chart is madness, and 0W-20 is also acceptable?

+1.
The chart is alright and not madness at all.
I agree to your logic here but are you expecting any "calculated" (not guessed) the savings or improvements by using the 0w-20 over and above the 5w-20 allowed in the owner's manual for winter use ?
Could there be any slightest possibility of a negative influence by moving to the 0w-20 ?
Unless there is some major advantage by changing from the 0w-30 to 0w-20 or even if to the 5w-20 grade, it may be a futile exercise in the unknown for you in this specific situation (your old elegant BMW M-60 engine).