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The Fatal Flaw... #5193440 08/21/19 09:58 PM
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Mad_Hatter Offline OP
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Good read on the ethanol industry... enjoy.πŸ˜‰

"The Fatal Flaw in the Ethanol Industry"

Re: The Fatal Flaw... [Re: Mad_Hatter] #5193482 08/21/19 11:50 PM
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tahoe_hybrid Offline
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the 15% deal is a scam more then likely will damage pretty much every car that is not a flexfuel..

it will not save the earth from emissions but cause more emissions due to fuel leaks (which is worse then not burning it at all)

ethanol is used to boost the octane number (super super cheap to use) and repalced MTBE which replaced leaded fuel

Re: The Fatal Flaw... [Re: tahoe_hybrid] #5193505 08/22/19 01:22 AM
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Mad_Hatter Offline OP
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My owners manual says E15 WILL cause damage.

Re: The Fatal Flaw... [Re: Mad_Hatter] #5193627 08/22/19 06:57 AM
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Dorian Offline
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Don’t forget the fact that increasing Ethanol content will also decrease gas mileage. It’s a complete joke.


15 Camry Hybrid SE 63K 0W20 Magnatec
14.5 Camry SE 2AR 0W20 M1 AFE 68K (Mom's)
98 Chevy Prizm 1ZZ M1 AFE 0W30 163K (Brother's)
Re: The Fatal Flaw... [Re: Mad_Hatter] #5193666 08/22/19 07:39 AM
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LoneRanger Offline
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I hate the stuff.



'19 F-150 2.7 twin turbo DI V6 .....(Motorcraft synblend 5W30 SN+)
'19 GMC Terrain 1.5 turbo DI I4....(Warren 0W20 1DexosGen2)
'16 Moto Guzzi NTX 1151cc v-twin (Eni 10W60)
Re: The Fatal Flaw... [Re: Mad_Hatter] #5193674 08/22/19 07:45 AM
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csandste Offline
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Shut up and eat your corn!


2017 Kia Soul Plus-- Valvoline Daily Protection 5w30+ a bit of Harvest King syn 5w30-- 75,000 miles
Re: The Fatal Flaw... [Re: Mad_Hatter] #5193686 08/22/19 08:06 AM
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WyrTwister Offline
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Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Good read on the ethanol industry... enjoy.πŸ˜‰

"The Fatal Flaw in the Ethanol Industry"


Although I am grossly under-informed , what little I do know pretty well goes along with this article .

Thank you , :-)


Wyr
God bless
Re: The Fatal Flaw... [Re: Mad_Hatter] #5193699 08/22/19 08:15 AM
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JLTD Offline
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Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
My owners manual says E15 WILL cause damage.

As does mine.

Several years back I recall a thread where it was illustrated that it cost more energy to produce ethanol than you got from burning the ethanol....my memory could be inaccurate but unless they've come up with something miraculous in ethanol production, ethanol is a fool's errand - except for the farmers paid by the government to grow corn.

IMO biofuels, especially algae, could and should be the future of liquid fuels. But that industry won't be grown until all the oil is out of the ground.


Lates.
Re: The Fatal Flaw... [Re: Mad_Hatter] #5193716 08/22/19 08:49 AM
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ragtoplvr Offline
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It does take quite a bit of energy to make alcohol.
This is not a complete list
Energy for the farmer to plant and harvest, including cost of irrigation, fertilizer and insect/herbicides.
Energy to haul to plant.
Energy to store grain and keep ventilated and cool until used.
Energy for the water and grinding grain to make mash
Energy to distill the alcohol
Energy to dry the depleted mash, and haul to feedlot for cattle feed. This is one product and the energy gain from it is normally left out of energy balance equation or overstated, depending on if you are a pro or anti alcohol.
Energy to haul the alcohol and slightly reduced fuel economy.

It does not save much if any just a few percent when you do a full accounting, Corn grown out of the corn belt changes the balance to negative.

Very complex when you look at it. It was and still is a political boondoggle.

Rod

Re: The Fatal Flaw... [Re: csandste] #5193731 08/22/19 09:16 AM
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Mad_Hatter Offline OP
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Originally Posted by csandste
Shut up and eat your corn!

Can I still have my pudding if I don't eat my corn?πŸ˜‰

Originally Posted by WyrTwister

Although I am grossly under-informed , what little I do know pretty well goes along with this article .

Thank you , :-)

πŸ‘..same was for me.

Originally Posted by JLTD

IMO biofuels, especially algae, could and should be the future of liquid fuels. But that industry won't be grown until all the oil is out of the ground.

Or the cost curve makes bio the clear choice but dino will always be needed in some shape or form. Keep in mind the govt can directly effect that curve (like we're seeing them do with ethanol) as well as it happening organically via market forces.

I'm a capitalist... anytime govt meddles, it disrupts things.. yes, sometimes for the better but historically for the worst. I know our farmers need help but I don't believe mandates are the way...I mean, what's the difference here with the mandate and having it be a State ran industry (socialist) - not much in my lay opinion...if the farmers need help, open up other markets for them to export to..not shut them.


Last edited by Mad_Hatter; 08/22/19 09:28 AM.
Re: The Fatal Flaw... [Re: Mad_Hatter] #5193777 08/22/19 10:09 AM
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Dave9 Online Content
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Meh, this is just an article by an author that is just repeating what has been stated elsewhere for years, probably just to generate content, to get paid. Nothing new here.

If I were his senior editor I would've rejected the article and told him to try harder next time.

Last edited by Dave9; 08/22/19 10:10 AM.
Re: The Fatal Flaw... [Re: Dave9] #5193787 08/22/19 10:21 AM
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Mad_Hatter Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Dave9
Meh, this is just an article by an author that is just repeating what has been stated elsewhere for years, probably just to generate content, to get paid. Nothing new here.

If I were his senior editor I would've rejected the article and told him to try harder next time.

I haven't read those articles from years ago, so I found it informative...but to each his own.πŸ˜‰

Re: The Fatal Flaw... [Re: Mad_Hatter] #5193842 08/22/19 11:20 AM
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BMWTurboDzl Offline
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Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Good read on the ethanol industry... enjoy.πŸ˜‰

"The Fatal Flaw in the Ethanol Industry"

This story is nonsense. As I've said before, ethanol was chosen as an affordable substitute for MTBE. The petrochemical industry had almost a decade to come up with an affordable alternative themselves and failed.

It's akin to listening to someone constantly complain about X but is unable offer a viable alternative. I'd bet the "ethanol-haters" around here would loose their. if an ethanol alternative resulted in a $1/gallon price increase.

cool

Last edited by M56959; 08/24/19 12:51 AM. Reason: Please don't bypass censor

β€œIt took untold generations to get you where you are. A little gratitude might be in order. If you’re going to insist on bending the world to your way, you better have your reasons.”

435i
Re: The Fatal Flaw... [Re: Mad_Hatter] #5193850 08/22/19 11:32 AM
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ADM makes millions of gallons of ethanol about three miles from here. My next door neighbor works there. Nebraska is one of the leading producers of it. The small town forty two miles up the road where we lived before moving here has a Valero ethanol facility there. That plant was built by VeraSun, the world's largest ethanol producer at the time(2008). VeraSun went bankrupt almost immediately and Valero purchased the Albion plant and one in South Dakota at a fire sale price. Railroad grain cars with faded VeraSun still visible are sitting on railroad sidings in our area. I believe there is still litigation by investors trying to recover something from former board members and executive types. I think ethanol is one of the biggest bamboozle swindles ever perpetrated on the American taxpayer. Many in our area will disagree, some vehemently.

Re: The Fatal Flaw... [Re: ragtoplvr] #5193870 08/22/19 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ragtoplvr
It does take quite a bit of energy to make alcohol.
This is not a complete list
Energy for the farmer to plant and harvest, including cost of irrigation, fertilizer and insect/herbicides.
Energy to haul to plant.
Energy to store grain and keep ventilated and cool until used.
Energy for the water and grinding grain to make mash
Energy to distill the alcohol
Energy to dry the depleted mash, and haul to feedlot for cattle feed. This is one product and the energy gain from it is normally left out of energy balance equation or overstated, depending on if you are a pro or anti alcohol.
Energy to haul the alcohol and slightly reduced fuel economy.

It does not save much if any just a few percent when you do a full accounting, Corn grown out of the corn belt changes the balance to negative.

Very complex when you look at it. It was and still is a political boondoggle.

Rod

The problem with this type of analysis is determining whether or not the farmer would choose to plant a different crop in place of corn. The amount of energy used could flip depending upon the substitute crop.


β€œIt took untold generations to get you where you are. A little gratitude might be in order. If you’re going to insist on bending the world to your way, you better have your reasons.”

435i
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