This thread is really interesting.
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Primary vs Secondary ZDDP
- Thread starter RDY4WAR
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For a drag engine, it's all about how competitive you are? If you are Pro-Stock with a national ranking and a big sponsor, you know that ANY edge is important. So you will spend on machining, closing clearances, and running thinner oils. Your oils will be picked based on your data logger temp signals - sump is only one ... You are running "heads up", so first across the line wins. Now days you'll be running thin oils for the 5~8 HP it can deliver in reduced drag (1%). Your sponsor will be buying the engine parts
But, if you are a local runner who is doing Divisional Points racing, consistency is paramount. You have to run at the bottom of your index, all day, any day, any weather. That is a whole different ball game.
Redline would not be out of the question... But other oils would have to be considered too. Chevron Delo 15W-30 SD (severe duty) would be on my list right next to Redline. Different formula, but I'd be testing to make sure it was within a consistent viscosity range over various track conditions? If so, it would be right in the top ten. Pennrite 10-10ths oil for the same reasons. JG Driven oils, Penn One, maybe John Deere +50 in a narrow multi, and some flavor of VR-1.
They'll all keep the parts happy. They'll all keep the cam and lifters happy (if the right parts were selected to start with ...). It'll all come down to bearing heat, ring seal, viscous drag, pumping losses, and the like.
One of the biggest jobs oil has to do is carry heat. These will all do that. So then we get to minutia like performance in the ring band at relatively high piston speeds (compared to street engines) and high levels of gas pressures attempting to blow by. Different oils will act differently here ... Some will seal better. But that is either found on the dyno, or with time slips over a season. Redline is known to be at least consistent in regard to ring sealing.
We need to know a lot more about the particular engine build? Total Seal/Perfect Circle rings, keystone rings, thin rings, standard rings, all iron rings, pressure backed rings, piston crown edge drilled to pressure back top ring, coated pistons (what coating), cylinder wall finish, piston material, etc.?
In your RPM range, I had plenty good luck running just old Hastings iron rings on pump gas. I absolutely would not do that on an E-85 engine. But it also depends on your dynamic compression between 5~6 K ...
With iron rings, I got really good sealing with Delo 400 SD. No need for Redline. But prices for SD have gotten more crazy than Redline
But, if you are a local runner who is doing Divisional Points racing, consistency is paramount. You have to run at the bottom of your index, all day, any day, any weather. That is a whole different ball game.
Redline would not be out of the question... But other oils would have to be considered too. Chevron Delo 15W-30 SD (severe duty) would be on my list right next to Redline. Different formula, but I'd be testing to make sure it was within a consistent viscosity range over various track conditions? If so, it would be right in the top ten. Pennrite 10-10ths oil for the same reasons. JG Driven oils, Penn One, maybe John Deere +50 in a narrow multi, and some flavor of VR-1.
They'll all keep the parts happy. They'll all keep the cam and lifters happy (if the right parts were selected to start with ...). It'll all come down to bearing heat, ring seal, viscous drag, pumping losses, and the like.
One of the biggest jobs oil has to do is carry heat. These will all do that. So then we get to minutia like performance in the ring band at relatively high piston speeds (compared to street engines) and high levels of gas pressures attempting to blow by. Different oils will act differently here ... Some will seal better. But that is either found on the dyno, or with time slips over a season. Redline is known to be at least consistent in regard to ring sealing.
We need to know a lot more about the particular engine build? Total Seal/Perfect Circle rings, keystone rings, thin rings, standard rings, all iron rings, pressure backed rings, piston crown edge drilled to pressure back top ring, coated pistons (what coating), cylinder wall finish, piston material, etc.?
In your RPM range, I had plenty good luck running just old Hastings iron rings on pump gas. I absolutely would not do that on an E-85 engine. But it also depends on your dynamic compression between 5~6 K ...
With iron rings, I got really good sealing with Delo 400 SD. No need for Redline. But prices for SD have gotten more crazy than Redline
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Gokhan
My favorite oil blender is ExxonMobil. They offer PAO-based oils with some of their Mobil 1 products. Nothing really matches PAO in both regular driving and racing. Their additive company Infineum is also the best in additives. They are the makers of the legendary TGMO 0W-20 SN as well.
This said, they offer a whole range of options for racing and towing. See their racing and towing catalog guide.
https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-racing-product-guide.pdf
It sounds like you want the Mobil 1 Racing 0W-30.
* HTHSV = 3.3 cP. So, you get the maximum horsepower (less viscous oil drag).
* It's PAO-based. PAO has by far the lowest friction coefficient (way lower than anything else) and least wear of all base oils. It also offers excellent viscosity index and excellent resistance to oxidation. It really makes a big difference in the overall quality, performance, and protection of the oil.
* Extremely high levels of ZDDP with 1750 ppm P and 1850 ppm Zn. It appears that it has two different compounds of ZDDP according to the MSDS.
* Extremely high levels of organo moly - sulfur complex with 1600 ppm moly (Mo).
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2143222/new-mobil-1-racing-0w30-voa
Unless you need an high-HTHSV oil, you can't go wrong with it for racing applications. Otherwise, pick an oil with higher HTHSV from the racing and towing catalog guide. Note that not all are PAO-based or mostly PAO-based. Check the MSDS. Amsoil also offers PAO-based racing oils.
It is interesting to see that Mobil lists the Delvac oils as the oils to use when towing.
So, the diesel oils are more robust and made to stand up to heavy loads, such as towing?
This lines up with what the gentleman I spoke to when I called the Mobil tech line said. Our dad has to travel to different states for his work, and if he stays for a while, he pulls his travel trailer to where he is working. We live in Indiana, and he has pulled the trailer to WI, IL, MO, and LA. Since he has to drive for hours at a time, towing the trailer, I called the Mobil tech line and asked the gentleman there what would be the best Mobil oil to use when towing like that. He said his recommendation was the TDT 5W-40.
Since then, I have rotated between the TDT 5W-40 and the Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40 for his truck when towing. It seems to be doing great.
My favorite oil blender is ExxonMobil. They offer PAO-based oils with some of their Mobil 1 products. Nothing really matches PAO in both regular driving and racing. Their additive company Infineum is also the best in additives. They are the makers of the legendary TGMO 0W-20 SN as well.
This said, they offer a whole range of options for racing and towing. See their racing and towing catalog guide.
https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-racing-product-guide.pdf
It sounds like you want the Mobil 1 Racing 0W-30.
* HTHSV = 3.3 cP. So, you get the maximum horsepower (less viscous oil drag).
* It's PAO-based. PAO has by far the lowest friction coefficient (way lower than anything else) and least wear of all base oils. It also offers excellent viscosity index and excellent resistance to oxidation. It really makes a big difference in the overall quality, performance, and protection of the oil.
* Extremely high levels of ZDDP with 1750 ppm P and 1850 ppm Zn. It appears that it has two different compounds of ZDDP according to the MSDS.
* Extremely high levels of organo moly - sulfur complex with 1600 ppm moly (Mo).
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2143222/new-mobil-1-racing-0w30-voa
Unless you need an high-HTHSV oil, you can't go wrong with it for racing applications. Otherwise, pick an oil with higher HTHSV from the racing and towing catalog guide. Note that not all are PAO-based or mostly PAO-based. Check the MSDS. Amsoil also offers PAO-based racing oils.
It is interesting to see that Mobil lists the Delvac oils as the oils to use when towing.
So, the diesel oils are more robust and made to stand up to heavy loads, such as towing?
This lines up with what the gentleman I spoke to when I called the Mobil tech line said. Our dad has to travel to different states for his work, and if he stays for a while, he pulls his travel trailer to where he is working. We live in Indiana, and he has pulled the trailer to WI, IL, MO, and LA. Since he has to drive for hours at a time, towing the trailer, I called the Mobil tech line and asked the gentleman there what would be the best Mobil oil to use when towing like that. He said his recommendation was the TDT 5W-40.
Since then, I have rotated between the TDT 5W-40 and the Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40 for his truck when towing. It seems to be doing great.
Originally Posted by BrocLuno
For a drag engine, it's all about how competitive you are? If you are Pro-Stock with a national ranking and a big sponsor, you know that ANY edge is important. So you will spend on machining, closing clearances, and running thinner oils. Your oils will be picked based on your data logger temp signals - sump is only one ... You are running "heads up", so first across the line wins. Now days you'll be running thin oils for the 5~8 HP it can deliver in reduced drag (1%). Your sponsor will be buying the engine parts
But, if you are a local runner who is doing Divisional Points racing, consistency is paramount. You have to run at the bottom of your index, all day, any day, any weather. That is a whole different ball game.
Redline would not be out of the question... But other oils would have to be considered too. Chevron Delo 15W-30 SD (severe duty) would be on my list right next to Redline. Different formula, but I'd be testing to make sure it was within a consistent viscosity range over various track conditions? If so, it would be right in the top ten. Pennrite 10-10ths oil for the same reasons. JG Driven oils, Penn One, maybe John Deere +50 in a narrow multi, and some flavor of VR-1.
They'll all keep the parts happy. They'll all keep the cam and lifters happy (if the right parts were selected to start with ...). It'll all come down to bearing heat, ring seal, viscous drag, pumping losses, and the like.
One of the biggest jobs oil has to do is carry heat. These will all do that. So then we get to minutia like performance in the ring band at relatively high piston speeds (compared to street engines) and high levels of gas pressures attempting to blow by. Different oils will act differently here ... Some will seal better. But that is either found on the dyno, or with time slips over a season. Redline is known to be at least consistent in regard to ring sealing.
We need to know a lot more about the particular engine build? Total Seal/Perfect Circle rings, keystone rings, thin rings, standard rings, all iron rings, pressure backed rings, piston crown edge drilled to pressure back top ring, coated pistons (what coating), cylinder wall finish, piston material, etc.?
In your RPM range, I had plenty good luck running just old Hastings iron rings on pump gas. I absolutely would not do that on an E-85 engine. But it also depends on your dynamic compression between 5~6 K ...
With iron rings, I got really good sealing with Delo 400 SD. No need for Redline. But prices for SD have gotten more crazy than Redline
Since posting this thread, I've picked up 5 quarts of JG Driven XP3 10w-30 to try out next season. The car also has a TH350 with a 4000 rpm stall converter. It's a footbrake bracket car. The biggest consistency difference I've seen with this car was switching to E85. Beforehand, I was having to carefully adjust the dial-in as the temperature, air density, and humidity changed throughout the day. With E85, it much less effected by changes in the weather. The temperature can drop 10 degrees from one round to the next, and it still runs the same dial-in.
JG Driven XP3 (and all of their XP series oils) use short chained secondary ZDDP with 1700+ ppm of tri-nuclear moly / organomoly blend. I'm looking forward to trying it next year.
For a drag engine, it's all about how competitive you are? If you are Pro-Stock with a national ranking and a big sponsor, you know that ANY edge is important. So you will spend on machining, closing clearances, and running thinner oils. Your oils will be picked based on your data logger temp signals - sump is only one ... You are running "heads up", so first across the line wins. Now days you'll be running thin oils for the 5~8 HP it can deliver in reduced drag (1%). Your sponsor will be buying the engine parts
But, if you are a local runner who is doing Divisional Points racing, consistency is paramount. You have to run at the bottom of your index, all day, any day, any weather. That is a whole different ball game.
Redline would not be out of the question... But other oils would have to be considered too. Chevron Delo 15W-30 SD (severe duty) would be on my list right next to Redline. Different formula, but I'd be testing to make sure it was within a consistent viscosity range over various track conditions? If so, it would be right in the top ten. Pennrite 10-10ths oil for the same reasons. JG Driven oils, Penn One, maybe John Deere +50 in a narrow multi, and some flavor of VR-1.
They'll all keep the parts happy. They'll all keep the cam and lifters happy (if the right parts were selected to start with ...). It'll all come down to bearing heat, ring seal, viscous drag, pumping losses, and the like.
One of the biggest jobs oil has to do is carry heat. These will all do that. So then we get to minutia like performance in the ring band at relatively high piston speeds (compared to street engines) and high levels of gas pressures attempting to blow by. Different oils will act differently here ... Some will seal better. But that is either found on the dyno, or with time slips over a season. Redline is known to be at least consistent in regard to ring sealing.
We need to know a lot more about the particular engine build? Total Seal/Perfect Circle rings, keystone rings, thin rings, standard rings, all iron rings, pressure backed rings, piston crown edge drilled to pressure back top ring, coated pistons (what coating), cylinder wall finish, piston material, etc.?
In your RPM range, I had plenty good luck running just old Hastings iron rings on pump gas. I absolutely would not do that on an E-85 engine. But it also depends on your dynamic compression between 5~6 K ...
With iron rings, I got really good sealing with Delo 400 SD. No need for Redline. But prices for SD have gotten more crazy than Redline
Since posting this thread, I've picked up 5 quarts of JG Driven XP3 10w-30 to try out next season. The car also has a TH350 with a 4000 rpm stall converter. It's a footbrake bracket car. The biggest consistency difference I've seen with this car was switching to E85. Beforehand, I was having to carefully adjust the dial-in as the temperature, air density, and humidity changed throughout the day. With E85, it much less effected by changes in the weather. The temperature can drop 10 degrees from one round to the next, and it still runs the same dial-in.
JG Driven XP3 (and all of their XP series oils) use short chained secondary ZDDP with 1700+ ppm of tri-nuclear moly / organomoly blend. I'm looking forward to trying it next year.
Originally Posted by njohnson
It is interesting to see that Mobil lists the Delvac oils as the oils to use when towing.
So, the diesel oils are more robust and made to stand up to heavy loads, such as towing?
Delvac 1's data sheets have talked about use in gasoline applications for years.
It is interesting to see that Mobil lists the Delvac oils as the oils to use when towing.
So, the diesel oils are more robust and made to stand up to heavy loads, such as towing?
Delvac 1's data sheets have talked about use in gasoline applications for years.
Originally Posted by Garak
Originally Posted by njohnson
It is interesting to see that Mobil lists the Delvac oils as the oils to use when towing.
So, the diesel oils are more robust and made to stand up to heavy loads, such as towing?
Delvac 1's data sheets have talked about use in gasoline applications for years.
Yes, the data sheets for Delvac 1 have mentioned gasoline applications for years, we are using it in our dad's truck and our SUV because of that. I thought it was interesting Mobil says to use the Delvac oils for vehicles that tow.
Originally Posted by njohnson
It is interesting to see that Mobil lists the Delvac oils as the oils to use when towing.
So, the diesel oils are more robust and made to stand up to heavy loads, such as towing?
Delvac 1's data sheets have talked about use in gasoline applications for years.
Yes, the data sheets for Delvac 1 have mentioned gasoline applications for years, we are using it in our dad's truck and our SUV because of that. I thought it was interesting Mobil says to use the Delvac oils for vehicles that tow.
If an application is demanding, it can be a help. Of course, what one considers demanding can differ, but any sensible oil for the ambient conditions and driving conditions will do the trick, and that includes HDEOs in gassers.
Thought when I graduated from college, it would be the last of Chem and O-Chem stuff.
I thought I drove my cars hard when I was younger (brake stands, burnouts through 3rd gear, donuts etc.
...
Until I went with my boss to pick up a hot tub he bought a couple of hours away. We towed the huge hot tub on a heavy trailer meant for his skid steer and going 75+mph my boss kept his foot in it on every hill and the 6 speed downshifted 2-3 gears and the 5.3 in his 09 avalanche was screaming between 4-5k RPM, sounded like we were at the races. That's when I realized what towing torture could be like.
...
Until I went with my boss to pick up a hot tub he bought a couple of hours away. We towed the huge hot tub on a heavy trailer meant for his skid steer and going 75+mph my boss kept his foot in it on every hill and the 6 speed downshifted 2-3 gears and the 5.3 in his 09 avalanche was screaming between 4-5k RPM, sounded like we were at the races. That's when I realized what towing torture could be like.
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