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#4805358 - 07/04/18 10:20 PM No more “ Carbies” in Australia?
Snagglefoot Online   content


Registered: 12/31/17
Posts: 1905
Loc: SE British Columbia, Canada
I was looking up the status of two cycle outboards and came across an article that said as of July 1 this year Australia would not allow importation of carbureted two cycle outboards affectionally known as “ Carbies”. Then on July 1, 2019, sales of Carbies will be banned in Australia. For our Aussie buddies, Is this true?

Also, what are the rules in the USA regarding the “Carbies”? I believe non of this applies to injected or GDI engines such as the Evenrude Etec engines. What’s the scoop? smile

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#4805366 - 07/04/18 10:51 PM Re: No more “ Carbies” in Australia? [Re: Snagglefoot]
dlundblad Offline


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 10174
Loc: Indiana
In the US, they now have 4 stroke weed eaters to I assume phase out 2 strokes. I want to say the early 2000's is when they stopped manufacturing 2 stroke mowers. I believe a 2 stroke mower like a Lawn Boy is illegal in the state of California too?

Not sure if they make new 2 stroke boat engines anymore, but the sale of them is certainly allowed.


Edited by dlundblad (07/04/18 10:51 PM)
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#4805378 - 07/04/18 11:21 PM Re: No more “ Carbies” in Australia? [Re: Snagglefoot]
Snagglefoot Online   content


Registered: 12/31/17
Posts: 1905
Loc: SE British Columbia, Canada
I just read that carbureted two stroke boat motors were basically gone in Canada in 2012.

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#4805477 - 07/05/18 07:24 AM Re: No more “ Carbies” in Australia? [Re: Snagglefoot]
billt460 Online   content


Registered: 03/30/15
Posts: 4540
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
2-Stroke engines of most any type are going away. While they are not "banned" entirely here in the U.S., several states have limits where they can be used. No one is developing commercial 2-Stroke technology any longer, because it's a lost cause. Instead they are introducing, efficient 4-Cycle engines for outboards, personal watercraft, and lawn and garden equipment.

I think in the future about the only place you will see them is in R/C models. And they even have a lot of new 4-Cycle engines available. Even Moto GP has gone to 4-Cycle engines.

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#4805541 - 07/05/18 08:44 AM Re: No more “ Carbies” in Australia? [Re: billt460]
hansj3 Offline


Registered: 10/08/14
Posts: 447
Loc: SSP mn
This isn't true. Evenrude has developed their e-tek series, adding direct injection and a sealed oil sump

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#4805588 - 07/05/18 09:16 AM Re: No more “ Carbies” in Australia? [Re: hansj3]
Snagglefoot Online   content


Registered: 12/31/17
Posts: 1905
Loc: SE British Columbia, Canada
Originally Posted By: hansj3
This isn't true. Evenrude has developed their E-tek series, adding direct injection and a sealed oil sump


Yes, mentioned it at the first posting. So, is Evenrude the last manufacturer to stay in the two stroke game? I suppose anyone could re-enter if they thought they had something good, since it's based on emissions and not whether its two stroke or 4 stroke. I think an Evenrude Etec would be good in a re-power situation. Having said that looks like the other manufacturers have thrown in the towel. Also, looks like they have abandoned the lower horsepower models.


Edited by Snagglefoot (07/05/18 09:18 AM)

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#4805694 - 07/05/18 10:35 AM Re: No more “ Carbies” in Australia? [Re: Snagglefoot]
MichiganMadMan Offline


Registered: 07/18/11
Posts: 257
Loc: SE Michigan
@ Snagglefoot: While it might seem like it from the outside, the US isn't one "coast to coast" emissions standard. Many state have felt it worth their while to apply more strict regulations to address local issues. The biggest divide here is between states that have adopted CARB (California Air Resources Board) emissions standards and those who just have the Federal ones. Marine regulations are equally tangled up.

Regarding marine engines, emissions regulations started in earnest at the Federal level here in around 1998, with a gradual ramp-down in emissions to 2006. Many of the "classic" 2-stroke engine designs could no longer meet the new emissions standards and were phased out. The US doesn't typically "ban" a certain technology (carburetor equipped 2-strokes in this case), but lowers the emission standards to a level where they aren't likely to be able to be certified any longer. I believe the next level kicked in around 2011 or 12 which meant any lingering old-school motors were gone.

This march cost one manufacturer (OMC, the makers of Evinrude and Johnson brand outboards) their solvency as they banked on Ficht direct injection in the mid to late 1990's and it was a commercial failure. The assets were purchased by BRP of Canada and they re-introduced the Evinrude brand.

There aren't any "carbies" 2-stroke outboards here save for questionable quality imports that are based on outdoor power equipment designs (read: China built weed whippers) that dance in just under the displacement where emissions regulations become more strict. This point was chosen to not disrupt all OPE. All current offerings from major outboard manufactures (Mercury, Evinrude, Honda, Yamaha, Tohatsu, Suzuki etc.) are either four stroke (some with carbs, some with EFI) or direct injected 2-strokes.

Having recently adjusted the idle mixture on three carbs on my 2005 Mercury 2-stroke, I won't miss them when they are gone. I nearly had to burn the clothes I was wearing at the time and my eyes were stinging from the fumes. Someone with a Honda 75 had their motor running next to me in the marina on the last fishing trip and the loudest thing was the tell-tale splashing in the water. He fired it up and left, no fiddling with the throttle, no begging it to keep running while it's cold, no smoke cloud.

Regarding the "low horsepower models", how low are you going? Most majors offer a 3HP or less here. Maybe it's something with the market in Australia?
Also: Most of the manufactures are buying their smaller engines (usually less than 10HP) from Tohatsu and re-branding them as their own. Maybe Tohatsu has such a dominant share that it doesn't make sense for them?

As far as I know, Evinrude is the only one offering 2-strokes throughout their range (15 HP and up), these are far from the old-school "carbies" though. They have state-of-the-art direct fuel injection with stratified charge and other trickery.
_________________________
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#4805706 - 07/05/18 10:53 AM Re: No more “ Carbies” in Australia? [Re: billt460]
SOHCman Online   content


Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 1320
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: billt460
2-Stroke engines of most any type are going away. While they are not "banned" entirely here in the U.S., several states have limits where they can be used. No one is developing commercial 2-Stroke technology any longer, because it's a lost cause. Instead they are introducing, efficient 4-Cycle engines for outboards, personal watercraft, and lawn and garden equipment.



I don't expect chainsaws to go four stroke any time soon. Sure Stihl has a new lithium ion powered chainsaw, but I doubt you will see any pro arborists whipping one out when it's time to fell a large tree, or any tree for that matter.

Not quite a lost cause. smile
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#4805858 - 07/05/18 01:22 PM Re: No more “ Carbies” in Australia? [Re: Snagglefoot]
Johnny2Bad Offline


Registered: 05/20/13
Posts: 1879
Loc: Saskatchewan, Canada
Over time all 2-stroke engines will be phased out, and it would not surprise me to see restrictions on carbeurated motors either. Just the Nannies doing what they do, telling you what is good for you and using a stick to make sure you listen. You see, resistance means "you have a problem", they foresaw this and they are more than happy to set you straight, through your wallet if necessary.

Nothing new here, been happening for hundreds of years. Only difference is they used to jail you, or saw off some useful limb, or disable some helpful body part, like your tongue or eye. Be thankful for progress.
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#4806478 - 07/06/18 07:05 AM Re: No more “ Carbies” in Australia? [Re: SOHCman]
billt460 Online   content


Registered: 03/30/15
Posts: 4540
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
Originally Posted By: SOHCman
I don't expect chainsaws to go four stroke any time soon.


They will eventually. And most likely sooner than you think. Just like everything else that was once dominated by a 2-Stroke engine market. Especially when you consider that a chainsaw puts as much or more pollutants into the air in 6 hours, that a new car does driving coast to coast. There is no way that ecologically driven states like California will allow for that to continue. The rest of the country will follow suit, as soon as alternative 4-Stroke engines become available. And you can best believe the major chain saw manufacturers are currently working on that full bore as we speak. No matter how you look at it, 2-Stroke engines are a dying breed. It's only a matter of time.... And not much of it remains.

http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=42187.0

"In one day's use a mid-sized saw puts out about as much pollution as a mid-sized car does driven across the country."

"Anyway, I compared this with a car driven 3000 miles, as shown in the second table, both the Federal regulations and the more advanced ULEV regulations which many cars now meet. As you can see, a saw having the power of a MS-361 and meeting the Phase 1 regulations puts out just about the same total emissions in 6 hours as a car meeting the Fed. Regs. driven 3000 miles."

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#4806680 - 07/06/18 10:38 AM Re: No more “ Carbies” in Australia? [Re: Snagglefoot]
billt460 Online   content


Registered: 03/30/15
Posts: 4540
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
Another issue with the big 6 cylinder 2-Strokes was fuel consumption. Back in the late 80's when I was running this 21' StarCraft with a 235 HP, V-6 Johnson, I had no problem pushing 25 to 30 gallons of fuel through it an hour. It had no trouble running close to 90 MPH on calm water. But about all it was good for was making good time between marina's to fill up.



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#4807084 - 07/06/18 07:25 PM Re: No more “ Carbies” in Australia? [Re: Snagglefoot]
Snagglefoot Online   content


Registered: 12/31/17
Posts: 1905
Loc: SE British Columbia, Canada
Yeah, but I’ll bet the chicks dug it!

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#4807125 - 07/06/18 08:32 PM Re: No more “ Carbies” in Australia? [Re: Snagglefoot]
BrocLuno Offline


Registered: 09/06/15
Posts: 5612
Loc: Kalifornia Kollective
OK as far as California goes 2-strokes are banned on many lakes. But, if the engine can pass the State's emissions testing they are still allowed. They must show the emissions labels to run on any "controlled" body of water. Salt water is still wide open for 2-strokes.

Evinrude's E-Tech and Tohatsu's direct injection both pass Cali's emissions testing, and are currently certified for use on Lake Tahoe, one of the nations most restricted water bodies. 2-strokes are not dead, but they must be ECU controlled direct injection to stand any chance of passing emissions.

Tohatsu is one of the largest outboard mfgs in the world. They have made outboards for OMC, Mercury, Nissan and their own brand. They build killer engines with zinc plated water passages and such. Far and away better than many other brands. They only build 2-strokes up to 90 HP. All their bigger engines are 4-stroke.

On outright ban on 2-strokes w/o emissions testing is political and kinda stupid ... Allowing direct injected 2-strokes to continue is smart ans they are light weight and very quick. Some get as good as, or better than, 4-stroke gas mileage.

I owned one 4-stroke Honda outboard - not impressed. I'm back to 2-strokes, now and forever. When my current Johnson blows up, I'll get a Tohatsu smile
_________________________
Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.

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#4807352 - 07/07/18 06:13 AM Re: No more “ Carbies” in Australia? [Re: Snagglefoot]
billt460 Online   content


Registered: 03/30/15
Posts: 4540
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
2-Stroke outboards produce more power per cubic inch. No one is denying their performance. But 4-Strokes are very quickly catching up. 2-Strokes also pollute for worse, drink fuel, and are overall far less reliable. Yeah, they can clean them up somewhat with direct injection and a few other tricks. But the problem is they will be always be playing catch up to the four strokes. Because that is where companies are spending the money on new designs and development.

Modern 4-Stroke outboard and watercraft engines are producing amazing power on a per cubic inch basis. And they are getting lighter every year doing it. Personal watercraft have all but completely abandoned 2-Stroke engines in favor of 4-Strokes. The outboard market is quickly following suit. There will be a few holdouts, just as there were in the street motorcycle market. Like Yamaha in the 80's with their RZ-350, along with it's oil injection and it's computer controlled YVPS sliding exhaust port system.

But in the end it ended up in the same place the rest of the 2-Stroke street motorcycles did. It went the way of the horse and buggy. 2-Stroke outboards will do much the same. It's only a matter of time. Regardless of how much lipstick you put on a pig, it still tastes like pork when it's cooked.

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#4807431 - 07/07/18 08:30 AM Re: No more “ Carbies” in Australia? [Re: Snagglefoot]
Snagglefoot Online   content


Registered: 12/31/17
Posts: 1905
Loc: SE British Columbia, Canada
That’s for all the leads. Looks like Evenrude and Tohatsu are still in the business. Check out Evenfrude.com and Tohatsu.com.

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